Hideo Kojima; What Happened!?

Fox Hound

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Gregorym2 wrote: »

It was devastating...its like Konami left out the story on purpose....maybe this gives him time to come back in five years for a big money reunion and a story that he has secretly been working on from now on till then!!!

I wish I could be as optimistic as you.

If the money was right he would do it!!,,,,G'n R got back together and slash said that would never happen!

Retr0gamer

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

You would deny this man Chapter 4?? :eek:

Chapter 4 was blantant fan pandering and handled really poorly IMO, and the boss fight was another mechanics disaster. I found it one of the least fun with the enemies replaced with robots that just were not fun to play against.

Penn wrote: »

But a lot of people think it's really great.

A lot of people like One Direction :cool:

Penn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

A lot of people like One Direction :cool:

A lot of people like AC/DC too.

Wait a minute... do you think it's possible people have different opinions about things? I mean... no... could they...?

Fox Hound

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Chapter 4 was blantant fan pandering and handled really poorly IMO, and the boss fight was another mechanics disaster. I found it one of the least fun with the enemies replaced with robots that just were not fun to play against.



A lot of people like One Direction :cool:

You actually make a good point about the robots, they where very frustrating, But the wolf battle was very good, and pretty nerve wreaking at times......There is always one boss in every metal gear game that I tottaly dread to play against...Metal Gear 1 it was Mantis, Metal Gear 2 it was Vamp, Metal Gear 3 it was the fear, Meat Gear 4 it was the Crying wolf!!!..... However even tho it was cool going back to shadow moses, it defo could have been bigger and longer with more things to do!

Retr0gamer

For me the last boss fight and the whole of chapter 4 was just fan service without any actual substance. There was no real purpose to those other than to appeal to fanboys in the laziest way possible.

The Crying Wolf boss fight was the best in the entire game but I still thought it was very poor in comparison to what the series and Konami in general usually offer. Adding in constantly respawning enemies is just poor design to make up for the total lack of challenge and interest the boss fight would otherwise have presented.

Retr0gamer

Penn wrote: »

A lot of people like AC/DC too.

Wait a minute... do you think it's possible people have different opinions about things? I mean... no... could they...?

I was trying to be humourous but you pretty much summed up why I hated it in your post. It was fan service without substance. It dumps you into a lazy QTE boss fight that is severely lacking in any gameplay.

Compare that to MGS1 with the final boss fight rush having Snake utilise most of the gadgets and tricks he learned through the entire game.

Then there's the Boss in MGS3, a brilliant marriage of gameplay and story. Everything Snake has learned about CQC and stealth has to be utilised to bring her down signifying Snake finally surpassing her abilities in everything she has thought him to that point.

Even MGS2 which committed the cardinal sin of changing the gameplay right at the end still somehow managed to work with a great fight that played like something out of a classic Konami game. So much fun.

MGS4: two old men slapping each other in slow motion while the music from different games plays.

Fox Hound

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Penn wrote: »

A lot of people like AC/DC too.

Wait a minute... do you think it's possible people have different opinions about things? I mean... no... could they...?

I was trying to be humourous but you pretty much summed up why I hated it in your post. It was fan service without substance. It dumps you into a lazy QTE boss fight that is severely lacking in any gameplay.

Compare that to MGS1 with the final boss fight rush having Snake utilise most of the gadgets and tricks he learned through the entire game.

Then there's the Boss in MGS3, a brilliant marriage of gameplay and story. Everything Snake has learned about CQC and stealth has to be utilised to bring her down signifying Snake finally surpassing her abilities in everything she has thought him to that point.

Even MGS2 which committed the cardinal sin of changing the gameplay right at the end still somehow managed to work with a great fight that played like something out of a classic Konami game. So much fun.

MGS4: two old men slapping each other in slow motion while the music from different games plays.

damn I love these games so much, but my god your arguments are killing me here hahaah....I have nothing!!

Penn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I was trying to be humourous but you pretty much summed up why I hated it in your post. It was fan service without substance. It dumps you into a lazy QTE boss fight that is severely lacking in any gameplay.

Compare that to MGS1 with the final boss fight rush having Snake utilise most of the gadgets and tricks he learned through the entire game.

How? You fight Rex, then you fist fight Liquid with no gadgets/tricks (as you do for the first part of the fight against Ocelot in MGS4), then it's on the rails just shooting for about 3 minutes, again no gadgets and I don't even remember if you can change weapons.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Then there's the Boss in MGS3, a brilliant marriage of gameplay and story. Everything Snake has learned about CQC and stealth has to be utilised to bring her down signifying Snake finally surpassing her abilities in everything she has thought him to that point.

Completely agree. It was the perfect boss fight for that game.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Even MGS2 which committed the cardinal sin of changing the gameplay right at the end still somehow managed to work with a great fight that played like something out of a classic Konami game. So much fun.

Again, I agree. The controls sucked for it, but it was a pretty good end fight for the game.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

MGS4: two old men slapping each other in slow motion while the music from different games plays.

But this is the point, it's not about gameplay. Gameplay is all but abandoned at this point, and I don't disagree that that may not be to some people's taste. It's about the end. It's about the culmination to the story as a whole; the end of Snake V Liquid, the end of Snake's journey. It is unashamedly fan service from the music to the health meters to Ocelot's fighting style changing.

And I enjoyed the cinematic nature of it. The build up to the fight and the aftermath.

Was it the best possible ending/boss fight? Probably not. But I and others enjoyed the hell out of it for what it was, not what it wasn't.

Fox Hound

Penn wrote: »

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I was trying to be humourous but you pretty much summed up why I hated it in your post. It was fan service without substance. It dumps you into a lazy QTE boss fight that is severely lacking in any gameplay.

Compare that to MGS1 with the final boss fight rush having Snake utilise most of the gadgets and tricks he learned through the entire game.

How? You fight Rex, then you fist fight Liquid with no gadgets/tricks (as you do for the first part of the fight against Ocelot in MGS4), then it's on the rails just shooting for about 3 minutes, again no gadgets and I don't even remember if you can change weapons.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Then there's the Boss in MGS3, a brilliant marriage of gameplay and story. Everything Snake has learned about CQC and stealth has to be utilised to bring her down signifying Snake finally surpassing her abilities in everything she has thought him to that point.

Completely agree. It was the perfect boss fight for that game.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Even MGS2 which committed the cardinal sin of changing the gameplay right at the end still somehow managed to work with a great fight that played like something out of a classic Konami game. So much fun.

Again, I agree. The controls sucked for it, but it was a pretty good end fight for the game.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

MGS4: two old men slapping each other in slow motion while the music from different games plays.

But this is the point, it's not about gameplay. Gameplay is all but abandoned at this point, and I don't disagree that that may not be to some people's taste. It's about the end. It's about the culmination to the story as a whole; the end of Snake V Liquid, the end of Snake's journey. It is unashamedly fan service from the music to the health meters to Ocelot's fighting style changing.

And I enjoyed the cinematic nature of it. The build up to the fight and the aftermath.

Was it the best possible ending/boss fight? Probably not. But I and others enjoyed the hell out of it for what it was, not what it wasn't.

god Im so happy I started this thread!!! will any of you guys be playing Kojima's new stuff?

Retr0gamer

Penn wrote: »

How? You fight Rex, then you fist fight Liquid with no gadgets/tricks (as you do for the first part of the fight against Ocelot in MGS4), then it's on the rails just shooting for about 3 minutes, again no gadgets and I don't even remember if you can change weapons.

Well you could use a lot of your gadgets in fun ways for the rex fight, while the liquid fight was a janky one on one fight but at least it was fun and had some mechanical depth.

Penn wrote: »

But this is the point, it's not about gameplay. Gameplay is all but abandoned at this point, and I don't disagree that that may not be to some people's taste. It's about the end. It's about the culmination to the story as a whole; the end of Snake V Liquid, the end of Snake's journey. It is unashamedly fan service from the music to the health meters to Ocelot's fighting style changing.

I expected more from a metal gear or Konami game. Metal Gear wasn't about the story, that was always pants but quite fun when Kojima didn't get over indulgent. The really fun gadgets and mechanics you could fool around with where what made the games and to finish off with a barely playable fight was so so disappointing after a very disappointing game overall. I just felt MGS4 missed the point so much. I was so glad to see Peace Walker and MGSV (for all its faults) really double down on the gameplay again.

Gregorym2 wrote: »

god Im so happy I started this thread!!! will any of you guys be playing Kojima's new stuff?

Definitely, although I fear he has been given too much free reign. He needs someone there to tell him no, when he is given free reign you end up with MGS2 and MGS4, his two weakest games. The two best Metal Gears for me where the ones he had the least control over, MGS3 and Ghost Babel. He's an ideas man and really has a knack for backing his games with really fun mechanics, even if they are inconsequential to the game and can be ignored, it's just fun to try something and smile when it works.

I also really love the games Kojima produced outside of Metal Gear. ZoE2 is an absolute classic and I adore Boktai even if it's impossible to play in the irish weather!

Penn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I expected more from a metal gear or Konami game. Metal Gear wasn't about the story, that was always pants but quite fun when Kojima didn't get over indulgent. The really fun gadgets and mechanics you could fool around with where what made the games and to finish off with a barely playable fight was so so disappointing after a very disappointing game overall. I just felt MGS4 missed the point so much. I was so glad to see Peace Walker and MGSV (for all its faults) really double down on the gameplay again.

And I think this is where the disconnect happens, because for me, MGS was every bit as much about the story as the gameplay. I absolutely loved the whole MGS story and got incredibly invested in it, for all its flaws and batsh*t-craziness, and MGS3 is my favourite game of all time not just because of the fantastic gameplay, but also the story.

From the very first trailer for MGS4, it was all about how it was the end of the story. It was the final mission. The culmination of everything. And that's part of why I liked the final fight against Liquid Ocelot, because it really was a representation of that; having the stages of the fight cycle through the previous games. It really did feel like "This is the end for these characters". Throwing the final punches is literally throwing the final punches.

Again, I don't necessarily disagree with your standpoint, because I get that in terms of gameplay and previous MGS boss fights, it doesn't even nearly compare. But MGS4 for better or worse was more about the story, bringing everything together and ending it.

Retr0gamer

Well I didn't even like the story anyway of mgs4. It was too busy tying up every loose end it kind of forgot its own story. And even tying everything up was handled poorly with the Deus ex machina of nanomachines did it. To top it off

big boss back from the dead

was complete bull****. Number one cardinal sin of a sequel right there just for fanservices sake.

I'll have to stop just thinking about how badly that game disappointed me makes me furious not as furious as what happened to Konami though.

Fox Hound

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well I didn't even like the story anyway of mgs4. It was too busy tying up every loose end it kind of forgot its own story. And even tying everything up was handled poorly with the Deus ex machina of nanomachines did it. To top it off

big boss back from the dead

was complete bull****. Number one cardinal sin of a sequel right there just for fanservices sake.

I'll have to stop just thinking about how badly that game disappointed me makes me furious not as furious as what happened to Konami though.

But for all its faults there was still a very good game produced, much better than most of the crap released in this year!!....the stealth aspect in this game was so good...The Octo camo suits was a really cool idea, cqc was improved and the mission when you are roaming the streets of Paris was something I really enjoyed and found totally old school metal gear...I don't understand as you are a fan of previous games that you didn't enjoy this one?....also big boss was the real star of this series not solid snake!

Retr0gamer

Gregorym2 wrote: »

But for all its faults there was still a very good game produced, much better than most of the crap released in this year!!....the stealth aspect in this game was so good...The Octo camo suits was a really cool idea, cqc was improved and the mission when you are roaming the streets of Paris was something I really enjoyed and found totally old school metal gear...I don't understand as you are a fan of previous games that you didn't enjoy this one?....also big boss was the real star of this series not solid snake!

I actually felt it was a significant step backwards from MGS3 and even the older games.

The good points:

The octo camo was a more elegant solution to camo than the menu in MGS 3.

First person combat was improved. However it was still really ropey and also something that you'd usually want to avoid in these games.

I thought chapter 3 was ok, something different at least but it ends with a bad rail section and a really poor boss fight.

What I didn't like:

Levels were tiny and less interesting than other games. They whole faction thing was only in the first chapter and really made no difference to the game. I also missed how you could affect enemy supplies in MGS3, it made it worth your while to go on sabotage missions.

There was a severe lack of gadgets in the game and the amount of interesting things you could do to torture the guards in the game suffered. It really reduced the gameplay options open to the player.

The game had a vast array of weaponry yet none had a specific purpose unlike older games. Nearly every weapon was just a stat variance on others and none were fun to use and experiment with like in older games with less weapons. The tiers of weapons all had their purpose in those games.

Ditching the normal guards for robots of the robo frog women things later in the game. They just weren't as much fun to mess around with.

Not one good boss battle in the entire game considering that MGS always had excellent and interesting boss fights with multiple ways to bring down enemies. Konami is also legendary for good boss fights. The gimmicks don't really work and the best way to kill them is just fill them with lead.

I also didn't appreciate the return to the endless interruptions and cutscenes from MGS2. The story was dire and having it told to you in cutscenes that lasted 30-45 minutes was insanity. You keep getting interrupted by cutscenes and codexes as you are trying to play the game.

One of the things I appreciated in MGS3 was that after the initial torrent of cutscenes the game was happy enough to let you just play the game and enjoy the gameplay systems. Sure it had its overindulgence of cutscenes at times but it was well paced so it never became annoying. It was a brave enough game to stand on its gameplay systems alone.

Fox Hound

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Gregorym2 wrote: »

But for all its faults there was still a very good game produced, much better than most of the crap released in this year!!....the stealth aspect in this game was so good...The Octo camo suits was a really cool idea, cqc was improved and the mission when you are roaming the streets of Paris was something I really enjoyed and found totally old school metal gear...I don't understand as you are a fan of previous games that you didn't enjoy this one?....also big boss was the real star of this series not solid snake!

I actually felt it was a significant step backwards from MGS3 and even the older games.

The good points:

The octo camo was a more elegant solution to camo than the menu in MGS 3.

First person combat was improved. However it was still really ropey and also something that you'd usually want to avoid in these games.

I thought chapter 3 was ok, something different at least but it ends with a bad rail section and a really poor boss fight.

What I didn't like:

Levels were tiny and less interesting than other games. They whole faction thing was only in the first chapter and really made no difference to the game. I also missed how you could affect enemy supplies in MGS3, it made it worth your while to go on sabotage missions.

There was a severe lack of gadgets in the game and the amount of interesting things you could do to torture the guards in the game suffered. It really reduced the gameplay options open to the player.

The game had a vast array of weaponry yet none had a specific purpose unlike older games. Nearly every weapon was just a stat variance on others and none were fun to use and experiment with like in older games with less weapons. The tiers of weapons all had their purpose in those games.

Ditching the normal guards for robots of the robo frog women things later in the game. They just weren't as much fun to mess around with.

Not one good boss battle in the entire game considering that MGS always had excellent and interesting boss fights with multiple ways to bring down enemies. Konami is also legendary for good boss fights. The gimmicks don't really work and the best way to kill them is just fill them with lead.

I also didn't appreciate the return to the endless interruptions and cutscenes from MGS2. The story was dire and having it told to you in cutscenes that lasted 30-45 minutes was insanity. You keep getting interrupted by cutscenes and codexes as you are trying to play the game.

One of the things I appreciated in MGS3 was that after the initial torrent of cutscenes the game was happy enough to let you just play the game and enjoy the gameplay systems. Sure it had its overindulgence of cutscenes at times but it was well paced so it never became annoying. It was a brave enough game to stand on its gameplay systems alone.

Metal Gear 3 was an amazing game....And I believe after the fall out from MGS2 and the whole raiden thing that MGS3 probably saved the series....it was really well thought out game....I wasn't a huge fan of eating wildlife and healing myself but it was still a great game.....MGS4 was always going to suffer because it was going back to solid snake as the main lead for the game....something I believe Kojima struggled with as he tried to replace Snake in MGS2 and then had big boss as a lead in 3...Bringing snake back in for mgs4 as the lead was always going to be hard one to pull off, I think it was really good game and I still go back and play it every now and again!!

Fox Hound

Also why wasn't gray fox mentioned in the phantom pain?

Retr0gamer

Gregorym2 wrote: »

Also why wasn't gray fox mentioned in the phantom pain?

Kojima likes to tie up every loose end but also isn't beyond retconning his own work. It looked more and more like he was pretending the MG games on MSX never happened especially concerning Big Boss

who definitely died at the end of the first game... and the second!

Atoms for Peace

Kojima was responsible for the backtracking in MGS for the sniper rifle which has to be one of the most annoying bits ever put to code in a game.

Fox Hound

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Kojima was responsible for the backtracking in MGS for the sniper rifle which has to be one of the most annoying bits ever put to code in a game.

PS1 Games are all guilty of this, Resident Evil, GTA, and lots more all had you going back to previous areas to get something in order to move forward.....