Strike Action - Schools looking for people to supervise classes?

Xaracatz

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

I really hope this goes ahead. It can only be a positive for teachers. The students will run rings around almost anybody that does it . Whoever ends up doing it will have earned their money that's for sure. Sitting in a room with 20+ teenagers that will have no respect for you and trying to keep them under control when everybody will know that there is nothing you can really do. Its only going to end one way.

Is it really that bad with school attenders these days? Genuine question.

Iused2likebusts

Xaracatz wrote: »

Is it really that bad with school attenders these days? Genuine question.

There is a big difference between teaching a class and supervising a class. Luckily I'd have no major issues with teaching my classes. You know them , they know you and things run fairly smoothly. When I supervise a class its a bit different as you are entering a room with students who you don't teach and don't know and vice versa. I've had no major issues but its a lot more difficult than teaching. The problem for an outsider coming in is the students will have no respect for them, they will soon realise there is no real sanction the outsider can give them. You can be guaranteed in the majority of schools students will push the boundaries. The supervisor in the majority of cases will not know strategies for classroom management. I can see a couple of major incidents happening with students recording these on their phones.

evolving_doors

Xaracatz wrote: »

Is it really that bad with school attenders these days? Genuine question.

I couldn't generalise but I suppose the main thing is that it only takes one student to cause a critical incident in 1 school. So you can do the stats on 15000 odd teachers supervising their own students compared to 15000 strangers off the street.

Even one incident and the media would be all over it. Then the school gets a bad name (it'll inevitably come out on 'local' social media).

It's like bullying. I was talking to a guy about a certain school and he said 'oh yeah that place is notorious for bullying '. Turns out it happened 15 years ago, half that staff have retired,2 streams of students had left, and new principal (I knew a teacher in that school). But once an incident gets out its toxic to the school, which isn't fair imo.

So hiring a load of strangers! It might be grand for 99%.. Etc..

jamie124

Ok... So on the news they are now saying that "schools will be forced to close"???
So obviously I'm guessing this supervising won't be going ahead now then?

evolving_doors

jamie124 wrote: »

Ok... So on the news they are now saying that "schools will be forced to close"???
So obviously I'm guessing this supervising won't be going ahead now then?

Parents council said no.
JMB says no.

So if the dept want to organise it then let em at it.
I think the govt. Are starting to realise that teachers actually do something during S&S, and it takes knowledge to do it. Sadly They've confused teaching with babysitting your niece or nephew for a few hours on Saturday night.

Mardy Bum

Jamfa wrote: »

The same thing happened back in 2003 and there was no drama in my school. The students were supervised by an adult who came in and everyone just got on with their work. Things could be different this time but more because of lack of vetted people than the inability of a responsible adult to supervise a class.

One of the few schools in the country so. You are lucky to work there.

jamie124

Does anyone know if Principal/VP's will be present during those days?? If SOME schools remain open and want people to supervise.

A few people think I'm completely bonkers for thinking of applying to this!!

political analyst

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

There is a big difference between teaching a class and supervising a class. Luckily I'd have no major issues with teaching my classes. You know them , they know you and things run fairly smoothly. When I supervise a class its a bit different as you are entering a room with students who you don't teach and don't know and vice versa. I've had no major issues but its a lot more difficult than teaching. The problem for an outsider coming in is the students will have no respect for them, they will soon realise there is no real sanction the outsider can give them. You can be guaranteed in the majority of schools students will push the boundaries. The supervisor in the majority of cases will not know strategies for classroom management. I can see a couple of major incidents happening with students recording these on their phones.

Technically, it's not supervision of a class; it's substitution for a teacher who is absent. Watching over pupils outside at the 11 o'clock break and lunchtime is supervision.

evolving_doors

jamie124 wrote: »

Does anyone know if Principal/VP's will be present during those days?? If SOME schools remain open and want people to supervise.

A few people think I'm completely bonkers for thinking of applying to this!!

Well TUI advises members not to do the duties of ASTI teachers, so I'd presume the same would apply for Principals/VP's who are members of ASTI!

jamie124

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Well TUI advises members not to do the duties of ASTI teachers, so I'd presume the same would apply for Principals/VP's who are members of ASTI!

So for example, if a Student is constantly disruptive or gets physical in class, can the person subbing in (non-teacher) send them to the principal or get the principal??

punisher5112

jamie124 wrote: »

So for example, if a Student is constantly disruptive or gets physical in class, can the person subbing in (non-teacher) send them to the principal or get the principal??

They wouldn't be allowed leave the class room unattended.

Why anyone would get involved in this is beyond me. Too many do gooders.

deiseindublin

Wouldn't call them do gooders, more mé féiners.

@jamie - supervising any class is hard at the best of times, never mind when:
* You don't know the school/system
* you don't know the students
* you're the same age as some of those you're supervising and
* you throw in the animosity created by the industrial action

I'd run a mile if I were you. Realistically no BOM would employ an 18 year old with no life experience for such a gig anyway.

km79

jamie124 wrote: »

So for example, if a Student is constantly disruptive or gets physical in class, can the person subbing in (non-teacher) send them to the principal or get the principal??

Every school has a code of behaviour
Every sub should be familiar with it and the processes to follow
None will. They will take the easy way out and pass the buck.
Teachers don't do this so supervisors should not either.They will be getting WELL paid to supervise and substitute. They should do both properly but won't when the reality hits home .
It will be a disaster . There will be a constant line of unsupervised students at P/DP/YH door

r93kaey5p2izun

jamie124 wrote: »

So for example, if a Student is constantly disruptive or gets physical in class, can the person subbing in (non-teacher) send them to the principal or get the principal??

That would depend on the Code of Behaviour and Code of Discipline in the school in question. In any school, no, you can't leave the room for any reason. In my school, no, you could not send the disruptive student anywhere out of the room for any reason, including to principal. You could send a reliable student for principal or DP in an emergency. A persistently disruptive srudent is not an emergency. A student getting physical would depend. In my school physical aggression that does not escalate would not be considered an emergency, just something to follow up afterwards. It has to be an actual ongoing fight before management will intervene at the time. This is a daily occurence in my school.

In some schools physical aggression and fights are very rare - they may see it as an emergency worthy of immediate management intervention.

My school won't be affected by the industrial action but the nearest school to us will. They have the same issues as us and operate a similar policy. Any supervisors going in there will be facing a very tough job!

WindomEarle

The people taking this work will be paid €38 per hour, a far cry from what teachers would get.

They are also strike breaking.

It will be interesting to see the repercussions- firstly as to how garda clearance will work, seeing as how many qualified teachers and SNAs are caught in the backlog?

Next, are the people taking these posts going to be able to enforce discipline (See Spurious above)?

Are these people used to addressing the needs of children with SEN?

Are they aware that some teenagers are ready and willing to take advantage and are these "supervisors" aware of the possibility of allegations being made against them?

This x 100.

It's a bizarre proposal. Let's not skim over the strike-breaking issue. This is huge - no Government have attempted to break a strike in this way, even Thatcher or Cameron as far as I know. This will have a huge impact on the IR environment in the public sector.

On the practicalities, it is difficult to see it working. Will there be training? Who will do rotas? Are the Dept breaching Data Protection laws by sending details to parents? Are the Dept breaching Equality laws by sending details only to parents (family status grounds)? What happens when a parent doesn't show up?

In fact, maybe those who support the strike should apply, go along with the process, and just not show up on the day.

Dylan94

So do they just plan on having a huge number of the new 'staff' in the school just incase there is supervision to be done?

What if its a bad day and 6 teachers call in sick. They have no one to cover the class? What would happen then?

jamie124

I wouldn't leave the room at all until the end of class and then go to the principal myself... Surely there would have to be someone in charge above everyone else on the days of strike? e.g. - the principal or vice principal?
When I was in school a few teachers actually left the room and left the whole class on their own for a good 10-15 mins!! The teacher would say "oh I'll be back in a minute, I've to photocopy something" ??? (I don't agree with this, this "photocopying" should have been done before classes started! - anyways, I'm sure teaching is a super busy job so you can't think of everything but you should not leave a class unattended.
I am aware that this would be fairly challenging and yes I am only fresh out of school myself but this is something that I would be very interested in... Even just for the experience....But as a few said i'm only 18 so a school might not take me on at all.

evolving_doors

Dylan94 wrote: »

So do they just plan on having a huge number of the new 'staff' in the school just incase there is supervision to be done?

Yes, that should make for an 'awkward' atmosphere in the staff room!

Dylan94 wrote: »

What if its a bad day and 6 teachers call in sick. They have no one to cover the class? What would happen then?

Just appoint one of the 6th yrs who's over 18!

Ya look the Parents council says no, the JMB says they wont facilitate it. TUI say to members not to cooperate.
So nobody knows what the govt. will do.. it'll just make for a nice bit of paperwork for someone in the dept. Not to mention the amount of application forms sent to be garda vetted (will the gardai prioritise these to be fast-tracked! Will the Gardai be working even!)

Lord TSC

Lads, what's the story with current sub teachers?

My brother isn't in a union, but gets a text every few days that there are classes to be subbed, come on in, etc. He gets a few days a week now.

With the way things are, will he get classes before the non-teachers being brought in? Will he keep getting paid the same as before?

Mardy Bum

Lord TSC wrote: »

Lads, what's the story with current sub teachers?

My brother isn't in a union, but gets a text every few days that there are classes to be subbed, come on in, etc. He gets a few days a week now.

With the way things are, will he get classes before the non-teachers being brought in? Will he keep getting paid the same as before?

Yes he will cover certified leave like he did. Is his school even bringing in non teachers, a lot are not.

dory

Lord TSC wrote: »

Lads, what's the story with current sub teachers?

My brother isn't in a union, but gets a text every few days that there are classes to be subbed, come on in, etc. He gets a few days a week now.

With the way things are, will he get classes before the non-teachers being brought in? Will he keep getting paid the same as before?

Yea, I guess he'll still get certified leave. The non-teachers will be doing lunch time supervisions and uncertified leave from what I can make out.

I have a school tour planned for a non-strike day in November. It would be myself and another teacher going with supervise being covered by my colleagues who are on the rota. Should I cancel now and try not to lose all the money? I can't see our school bringing in parents.

Mardy Bum

dory wrote: »

Lord TSC wrote: »

Lads, what's the story with current sub teachers?

My brother isn't in a union, but gets a text every few days that there are classes to be subbed, come on in, etc. He gets a few days a week now.

With the way things are, will he get classes before the non-teachers being brought in? Will he keep getting paid the same as before?

Yea, I guess he'll still get certified leave. The non-teachers will be doing lunch time supervisions and uncertified leave from what I can make out.

I have a school tour planned for a non-strike day in November. It would be myself and another teacher going with supervise being covered by my colleagues who are on the rota. Should I cancel now and try not to lose all the money? I can't see our school bringing in parents.

Ask management. Some c&c will try to accommodate if the trip is very important.

evolving_doors

dory wrote: »

Yea, I guess he'll still get certified leave. The non-teachers will be doing lunch time supervisions and uncertified leave from what I can make out.

I have a school tour planned for a non-strike day in November. It would be myself and another teacher going with supervise being covered by my colleagues who are on the rota. Should I cancel now and try not to lose all the money? I can't see our school bringing in parents.

I'm hedging that the first week (7th) will be all out strike. 2nd week will be 'back to normal' pending ballot.
The amount of money they save in wages would probably equal the amount of money they'd spend in S&S. But it's the principle of the thing.

doc_17

Something will be sorted over the midterm. Nobody wants prolonged closures.

clunked

doc_17 wrote: »

Something will be sorted over the midterm. Nobody wants prolonged closures.

Or it might suit the Department to try and break the ASTI. In addition the laziness of the other congress mafia of beards wouldn't be shown for selling their membership short in slavishly signing up for these all encompassing agreements

doc_17

You can't blame other Unions for the situation the ASTI finds itself now. Maybe the ASTI are 100% right, but they are being 0% pragmatic.

political analyst

clunked wrote: »

Or it might suit the Department to try and break the ASTI. In addition the laziness of the other congress mafia of beards wouldn't be shown for selling their membership short in slavishly signing up for these all encompassing agreements

Parents will be angry at the ASTI but they won't let the Department off the hook either. The ASTI has a duty towards its members but the Department has a duty towards pupils. Therefore, the Department bears the greater responsibility.

evolving_doors

political analyst wrote: »

Parents will be angry at the ASTI but they won't let the Department off the hook either. The ASTI has a duty towards its members but the Department has a duty towards pupils. Therefore, the Department bears the greater responsibility.

Surprisingly there has been more parental support than usual from listening to various vox pops.

The only weapon the govt needs is 'time' and a political consensus. And they are using it.

What would pressure them into softening their position?

1. Parental/Public outrage? Ironically parental support for the strike will ensure that it will last longer! How long can folk go unpaid?
2. Nobody there to do the S&S. Well just close the schools and dock the pay. In a way I would have preferred if they could hire all the subs needed just to keep the farce of pay for strangers vs' no pay for teachers in the public eye.
3. TUI and other union support for the strike? see point 1
4. Opposition put pressure on Govt. to sort it out? Can't see that happening (maybe the shinners might take up the case). At the moment the focus of 'opposition rumblings' is shifting towards the 'repeal the 8th' situation.
5. Gardai forcing their hand to renegotiate outside LR:

I think it'll be No. 5. Any interviews on 'public sector' strikes and the teachers always take second place to the Gardai. The gardai threatening strikes is more unprecedented than the ASTI threatening strikes.

ASTI are in for the long haul... or else..

Lansdowne Road 2 anyone?

political analyst

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Surprisingly there has been more parental support than usual from listening to various vox pops.

The only weapon the govt needs is 'time' and a political consensus. And they are using it.

What would pressure them into softening their position?

1. Parental/Public outrage? Ironically parental support for the strike will ensure that it will last longer! How long can folk go unpaid?
2. Nobody there to do the S&S. Well just close the schools and dock the pay. In a way I would have preferred if they could hire all the subs needed just to keep the farce of pay for strangers vs' no pay for teachers in the public eye.
3. TUI and other union support for the strike? see point 1
4. Opposition put pressure on Govt. to sort it out? Can't see that happening (maybe the shinners might take up the case). At the moment the focus of 'opposition rumblings' is shifting towards the 'repeal the 8th' situation.
5. Gardai forcing their hand to renegotiate outside LR:

I think it'll be No. 5. Any interviews on 'public sector' strikes and the teachers always take second place to the Gardai. The gardai threatening strikes is more unprecedented than the ASTI threatening strikes.

ASTI are in for the long haul... or else..

Lansdowne Road 2 anyone?

Surely, the closures of most of the secondary schools in Ireland won't be allowed to continue for a period similar in length to that of the 1946 Dublin primary teachers' strike.