Landlords solely using AirBnB for lettings now require planning permission

Elliott S

maximum12 wrote: »

This also benefits other owners or lessees in developments who didn't sign up to live in a guest house.

Graham wrote: »

1) other long-term residents didn't sign-up to live in a holiday village.

This is my main issue with AirBnB moving from its original ethos to properties solely being let out on AirBnB. AirBnB users are on holiday, so more likely to be staying up later, playing loud music and generally being in a party mood. It could be incredibly disruptive living next to a property with a constant stream of holidaymakers.

4ensic15

foggy_lad wrote: »

The bedsits being banned was more a European direction because even the most salubrious of bedsits is still only suitable for short term emergency accommodation of up to 3 months. Any longer than that and the tenant(s) must be considered and counted as being homeless.

Here in Ireland people were living in poky dog-box bedsits with mouldy walls and damp dirty toilets and the poorest cooking facilities for 10years+.

What European direction?

athtrasna

4ensic15 wrote: »

What European direction?

That's off topic so can we move on please

TSQ

foggy_lad wrote: »

So those in emergency accommodation get offered a choice of maybe 2 rental properties in areas outside the city area or away from Dublin altogether and if they refuse they are effectively taking themselves off the list for housing and the council can tell them to find their own housing. This leaves city hotels free for tourists and also leaves housing and apartments near the city centre for those working in the city.

Excuse me, but I don't know where Dubs - on welfare or otherwise - get the notion that they are entitled to a home near their mammy. For generations country folk have had to leave family and friends far behind in order to find work in the city. I don't see why people who make a sacrifice in order to be self-supporting should in addition have to pay the high city rents of people on welfare who aren't prepared to move to affordable, available, out of Dublin homes.(and before I get accused of anti-Dub bias, I am a Dub, but I and my siblings traveled the world in search of work, and some of them still live and work overseas).

Graham

Looks like AirBnB are facing obstacles in many cities across the globe.

Berlin have banned most short-term rentals with 6 figure fines for violations.
Barcelona is imposing 5 figure fines for listings without proper licenses.
Amsterdam is collecting data to pursue illegal hosts.
New York and San Francisco have ongoing legal battles.

Many other cities are watching the outcome of the current legal battles before deciding what action to take.

Public officials need to prioritize the rights of full-time residents over landlords and visitors, said Rosenthal, the New York Assemblywoman.

“I represent New Yorkers,” she said. “I don’t represent tourists, and my responsibility is not to protect their cheap deal at the expense of New Yorkers.”

Source: http://venturebeat.com/2016/10/22/latest-new-york-and-san-francisco-lawsuits-highlight-global-risks-for-airbnb/

While I don't think AirBnB's existence is in jeopardy, the rapid growth certainly could be.

daithi7

Quote: seamus
http://www.rte.ie/news...8-airbnb-temple-bar/

TL;DR:

- Dublin City Council held the owners of an apartment in breach of planning regulations for using AirBnB for letting out their apartment
- Owners appealed to ABP
- ABP upheld the DCC ruling
- Owners must now apply for change-of-use permission from residential to short-term holiday letting

It's only a single case, but clearly now applies to any landlord whp is solely using AirBnB for their lettings. Which should be good news for people renting in the city centre.
End quote.

if it's only a single case, by a single local authority taking account of case specific issues, why does it 'clearly now apply to any landlord whp is solely using AirBnB for their lettings.' As you contend!?

Fwiw, I think it's far from clear.

Also what happens fit instance if the landlord only get some of their rentals via Airbnb? Rent a part of their property this way? Or whatever??

There's very little difference to daft.ie (except the short term nature) which is pretty much used by everyone already imho.

Graham

daithi7 wrote: »

There's very little difference to daft.ie (except the short term nature) which is pretty much used by everyone imho.

There's every difference. You said it yourself 'the short term nature'.

beauf

TSQ wrote: »

Excuse me, but I don't know where Dubs - on welfare or otherwise - get the notion that they are entitled to a home near their mammy. ....

The logical conclusion to that would be moving everyone on welfare no matter where they in the country to all move to the cheapest county regardless of where it is. Which is obviously unworkable. Also has nothing to do with AirBnB.

daithi7

Graham wrote: »

There's every difference. You said it yourself 'the short term nature'.

Well assuming it is being used for short term rentals that is' A Difference', but far from 'Every Difference' imho as you're trying to suggest.

I mean if a property and it's tenants are well managed & looked after, big bloody deal if it is being used for short term lettings via Airbnb, that's surely the property owner's right?!

I mean when someone bought a house say, did the local authority stipulate then that they could not use it for short term rentals!?! Most probably not. So why should they be allowed make that restrictive stipulation now in retrospect!?

So, provided tenants are not making a nuisance of themselves (which they were in the one Dublin city council case apparently) it's not really anyone's bloody business, except the property owner & the mostly tourists who are being facilitated by having access to more affordable accommodation all over the country which they could not access previously. That's a great tourist resource btw.

I think Airbnb is a great innovation tbh, most particularly in a city like Dublin that is short on hotel beds. Also there are a lot of private properties in negative equity, etc, etc, with property owners really struggling pay their mortgage, and Airbnb & it's ilk is allowing some of them access new income streams from mostly overseas visitors. Well managed this is a clear win win, good for the much beleaguered property owner, the visitor, the banks, tourism, tax receipts and the country in general. it's really only the luny lefties and regressive stuck in the muds who'll moan about such a useful innovation for Ireland......... Well done lads..

sondagefaux

I mean when someone bought a house say, did the local authority stipulate then that they could not use it for short term rentals!?! Most probably not. So why should they be allowed make that restrictive stipulation now in retrospect!?

Most residential houses and residential apartments were built with planning permission requiring them to be used primarily as residences, not for business use.

Buying an apartment, with no intention of living there, and renting it out on a short-term basis to tourists (whether via Airbnb or otherwise), is not a residential use, it is a business use.

If you want to change the use of a property with pre-existing planning permission for residential use to business use, you need planning permission. This has always been the case.

The An Bord Plean la ruling, which upheld a Dublin City Council decision, makes this clear.

You cannot simply do what you want with your property just because you bought it.

You are required to put it to uses that are covered by its planning permissions and you are required to obey any other relevant laws pertaining to its use or development.

That's not loony leftism - it's simply demonstrating respect for other people and obeying the law, virtues which presumably a right-winger like yourself should support...

Graham

daithi7 wrote: »

I mean when someone bought a house say, did the local authority stipulate then that they could not use it for short term rentals!?!

Yes by nature of the planning permission being residential use, as the recent ruling from ABP appears to confirm.

gaffer91

daithi7 wrote: »

Well assuming it is being used for short term rentals that is' A Difference', but far from 'Every Difference' imho as you're trying to suggest.

I mean if a property and it's tenants are well managed & looked after, big bloody deal if it is being used for short term lettings via Airbnb, that's surely the property owner's right?!

I mean when someone bought a house say, did the local authority stipulate then that they could not use it for short term rentals!?! Most probably not. So why should they be allowed make that restrictive stipulation now in retrospect!?

It shouldn't be the property owners right. This isn't some libertarian utopia. Properties are being used for Airbnb instead of allowing locals to rent. This is restricting supply and driving up rents. This is what's called an externality- people leasing on Airbnb are adversely affecting third parties i.e. renters by causing their rent to rise. They should be forced to either stop this negative activity or compensate renters. The latter isn't really practical so it's just easier to go with the first.

Anyway, as others have pointed out, if a property is being used for short term rentals then this strays from it's original use as residential property. It should instead be viewed as commercial property. This is unfair from another perspective as well- airbnb hosts don't have to comply with the mountain of regulations their direct competitors (i.e. hotels) face which gives them a massive advantage.

daithi7 wrote: »

So, provided tenants are not making a nuisance of themselves (which they were in the one Dublin city council case apparently) it's not really anyone's bloody business, except the property owner & the mostly tourists who are being facilitated by having access to more affordable accommodation all over the country which they could not access previously.

It's everyone who has an interest in affordable accommodation's business.

daithi7 wrote: »

That's a great tourist resource btw.

Nobody has ever disputed this. It's terrible for local renters though.

daithi7 wrote: »

I think Airbnb is a great innovation tbh, most particularly in a city like Dublin that is short on hotel beds. Also there are a lot of private properties in negative equity, etc, etc, with property owners really struggling pay their mortgage, and Airbnb & it's ilk is allowing some of them access new income streams from mostly overseas visitors. Well managed this is a clear win win, good for the much beleaguered property owner, the visitor, the banks, tourism, tax receipts and the country in general. it's really only the luny lefties and regressive stuck in the muds who'll moan about such a useful innovation for Ireland......... Well done lads..

Yeah all those "luny" lefts in New York, Barcelona, Amsterdam and Berlin haven't a clue. Useful for tourists, disastrous for locals. That's the key point which you should try to take on board.

sondagefaux

Here's a prime example of how Airbnb has been used in a manner which causes a shortage of properties available for long-term rental:

[font=Georgia, serif]A man renting 40 properties in the Drumcondra area and letting them out through Airbnb was confronted by one of his former landlords on Liveline today.
[/font]
[font=Georgia, serif]Seamus Murphy, a lecturer living in Dublin, rents properties in the Drumcondra area and lets them out to Airbnb customers during the summer months.

One of his former landlords, Angela Black, spoke to Liveline last Friday to complain that a property she rented in Drumcondra was being used for Airbnb without her knowledge.

My neighbour got in touch and said my Airbnb guests were causing trouble and that was the first I had heard of it, Ms Black told Liveline last Friday.

Her tenant today defended his actions, and the conversation quickly turned into an argument when Ms Black was brought back onto the programme to confront him.

Mr Murphy said that he tended to double the rent on a property for Airbnb, but that he was paying Ms Black a good rent: I was paying enough rent for her to be happy, but some people can t be happy.

There was a fight on the street after a concert in Croke Park; it had nothing to do with us. I was contacted by her after the complaint and told to vacate the property by the following night, Mr Murphy told Liveline.

Ms Black responded: We gave you seven days notice to leave and during that week, I had more complaints from my neighbour.

I ll agree with you there; you have a very complaining neighbour, Mr Murphy laughed.

Mr Murphy pointed out that he had lost the deposit on the property, but said: I don t care about it; it s only 500. She s from Mayo so she could give it to the Mayo football team, or the Vincent de Paul.

When Joe Duffy raised the question of how the Airbnb trend is affecting the homelessness crisis, Mr Murphy said: There s plenty of empty houses in Longford and Westmeath.

The role of Airbnb in the renting market has been the subject of much debate since the ruling by An Bord Plean la that the owners of an apartment in Temple Bar had breached planning laws by consistently using the property for short-term letting on Airbnb.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/man-who-rents-40-properties-and-leases-them-through-airbnb-confronted-by-landlord-35157078.html[/font]

So that's 40 houses off the long-term rental market being used for Airbnb instead. Are people still trying to claim that Airbnb isn't having a distorting effect on long-term rental prices in Dublin?

Graham

sondagefaux wrote: »

So that's 40 houses off the long-term rental market being used for Airbnb instead. Are people still trying to claim that Airbnb isn't having a distorting effect on long-term rental prices in Dublin?

I would bet there are quite a few more examples of owners that don't yet know their 'tenants' are really commercial scale AirBnB hosts.

listermint

Graham wrote: »

I would bet there are quite a few more examples of owners that don't yet know their 'tenants' are really commercial scale AirBnB hosts.

Well tbh i hope Revenue go after him and others like him with Gusto.

The lad sounds like a arrogant creep.

beauf

I think it illustrates how little protection there is for the LL where the tenant decides to sublet as AirBnB in this case but it similar if they weren't using AirBnB.

Long term, multiple property lettings, will distort the market. But they are easily regulated through AirBNB. if some get the finger out and does it.

The short term will effect hotels, etc. But they are at capacity anyway.

Then a related but seperate issue is the problems is causes for other residents.

Graham

beauf wrote: »

I think it illustrates how little protection there is for the LL where the tenant decides to sublet as AirBnB in this case but it similar if they weren't using AirBnB.

Long term, multiple property lettings, will distort the market. But they are easily regulated through AirBNB. if some get the finger out and does it.

I suspect this is one of the reasons AirBnB have booted the 'hosts' with multiple properties first when other cities have started to complain.

It would be interesting to see how Mr Murphy intends to pay the rent on 40 properties from his lecturers salary if his AirBnB account is revoked.

sondagefaux

Graham wrote: »

sondagefaux wrote: »

So that's 40 houses off the long-term rental market being used for Airbnb instead. Are people still trying to claim that Airbnb isn't having a distorting effect on long-term rental prices in Dublin?

I would bet there are quite a few more examples of owners that don't yet know their 'tenants' are really commercial scale AirBnB hosts.

Quite probably. Most tenancy agreements contain clauses that prohibit sub-letting (which would include Airbnb rentals) without the express permission of the landlord. If I was renting to this lecturer, I'd check to ensure that he wasn't in breach of any tenancy agreement we had both agreed to.

seamus

Graham wrote: »

It would be interesting to see how Mr Murphy intends to pay the rent on 40 properties from his lecturers salary if his AirBnB account is revoked.

He won't. He'll just stop paying it and tell the landlords he's gone.

There's no such thing as a class action in Ireland and the odds of any of the landlords suing him for insufficient notice are minimal when they can take his deposit and rent out the property again very quickly.

His case is another example of why a voluntary database would be a useful idea for both landlords and tenants to be able to vet eachother before renting.

gaffer91

beauf wrote: »

I think it illustrates how little protection there is for the LL where the tenant decides to sublet as AirBnB in this case but it similar if they weren't using AirBnB.

Is that really all you took from it?

Graham

seamus wrote: »

He won't. He'll just stop paying it and tell the landlords he's gone.

There's no such thing as a class action in Ireland and the odds of any of the landlords suing him for insufficient notice are minimal when they can take his deposit and rent out the property again very quickly.

I'd more imagined a rather large string of complaints lodged with the PRTB. No cost at all to the landlords involved

beauf

Graham wrote: »

I'd more imagined a rather large string of complaints lodged with the PRTB. No cost at all to the landlords involved

Unless people overstay then the LL is a right mess.

Graham

beauf wrote: »

Unless people overstay then the LL is a right mess.

Would be interesting to see how he manages to overstay in 40 places at once.

beauf

Graham wrote: »

Would be interesting to see how he manages to overstay in 40 places at once.

http://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/the-three-stages-of-a-tenancy/what-is-subletting-
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tenants_rights_and_obligations.html

You may not assign or sublet the tenancy

Graham

beauf wrote: »

http://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/the-three-stages-of-a-tenancy/what-is-subletting-
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tenants_rights_and_obligations.html

I understand the no-subletting, not sure how that answers the question though.

beauf

I would have thought its obvious. The people the tenant sublet to have never been vetted by the Owner. If they overstay in practical terms, it all comes back on the Owner to sort it out if the tenant does a runner. Considering it was hassle with the AirBnB customers that brought this case to light. One of the reasons to use AirBnB by the middle man is to avoid all this.

Its a mess.

sondagefaux

One way of ensuring that tenants don't sublet without the express permission of the landlord would be to make it a strict liability criminal offence to do so, with complete forfeiture of all gross income received from subletting as a mandatory part of the penalty. If people knew that they could go to prison, and would definitely lose all the money they got from subletting without permission, whether via Airbnb or through another method, they would be far less inclined to do so.

the_syco

beauf wrote: »

Is there any meaningful govt action on the supply shortage??

Not really. Seem to be ignoring the fact that landlords are using AirBnB to avoid having to tent to tenants.

If the landlord doesn't want to RA, they won't. Laws that only help the tenant will actually go against the tenant in the long run. LL's can no longer say "no" to people on RA, so the new law ensures that their time is wasted going to a house that they won't get. Increasing the RA just means that LL's will increase their rent to beyond it.

Until the government sorts out Landlords rights, IMO there shall only be a gradual reduction in the properties rented out, if not to AirBnB, then to something the same, but under a different name.

Michael D Not Higgins

Mod: No witch hunts

seamus

Graham wrote: »

I'd more imagined a rather large string of complaints lodged with the PRTB. No cost at all to the landlords involved

A case gets opened with the RTB and he sends the keys back to the landlord and says sayonara. There's realistically very little the LL or RTB can do to him if he's moved out.

newacc2015

sondagefaux wrote: »

Here's a prime example of how Airbnb has been used in a manner which causes a shortage of properties available for long-term rental:



So that's 40 houses off the long-term rental market being used for Airbnb instead. Are people still trying to claim that Airbnb isn't having a distorting effect on long-term rental prices in Dublin?

This article is incorrect. It was 40 bedrooms he was renting on Airbnb, which is nothing close to 40 house

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/airbnb-host-claims-he-sub-lets-40-rented-rooms-in-dublin-1.2841981

There is very little evidence to show Airbnb is actually distorting the rents in Dublin( I know unpopular opinion, but look at the facts). Plenty of people are saying it, but arent actually showing any credible sources. There is a few anecdotes here and there eg current Airbnbs with high yields going for decent amounts. But that only made the news as it was not the norm in the first place.

There are plenty of studies in the US on America, which support my opinion that 1% of the housing stock of a city being Airbnb isnt distorting the market.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/airbnb-probably-isnt-driving-rents-up-much-at-least-not-yet/

Research from Berlin on Airbnb. A mere 0.5% of the housing stock was Airbnb, but the council blamed Airbnb for the housing shortage.But the real reason was lack of local housing was being built by Berlin Authorities.

https://www.airbnbaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/AirbnbandtheBerlinhousingmarket.pdf

There is hardly any credible evidence on Airbnbs and rents in Dublin

Graham

newacc2015 wrote: »

This article is incorrect. It was 40 bedrooms he was renting on Airbnb, which is nothing close to 40 house

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/airbnb-host-claims-he-sub-lets-40-rented-rooms-in-dublin-1.2841981

There is very little evidence to show Airbnb is actually distorting the rents in Dublin( I know unpopular opinion, but look at the facts). Plenty of people are saying it, but arent actually showing any credible sources. There is a few anecdotes here and there eg current Airbnbs with high yields going for decent amounts. But that only made the news as it was not the norm in the first place.

There are plenty of studies in the US on America, which support my opinion that 1% of the housing stock of a city being Airbnb isnt distorting the market.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/airbnb-probably-isnt-driving-rents-up-much-at-least-not-yet/

Research from Berlin on Airbnb. A mere 0.5% of the housing stock was Airbnb, but the council blamed Airbnb for the housing shortage.But the real reason was lack of local housing was being built by Berlin Authorities.

https://www.airbnbaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/AirbnbandtheBerlinhousingmarket.pdf

There is hardly any credible evidence on Airbnbs and rents in Dublin

How does any of that fit with the experience in Spencer Dock where the management company suggest 100 out of 600 apartments are being let as holiday accommodation?

You keep stating AirBnB has no effect on the rental market but consistently choose to ignore the evidence presented to the contrary.

gaffer91

newacc2015 wrote: »

This article is incorrect. It was 40 bedrooms he was renting on Airbnb, which is nothing close to 40 house

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/airbnb-host-claims-he-sub-lets-40-rented-rooms-in-dublin-1.2841981

That is actually a massive amount for one individual.

newacc2015 wrote: »

There is very little evidence to show Airbnb is actually distorting the rents in Dublin( I know unpopular opinion, but look at the facts). Plenty of people are saying it, but arent actually showing any credible sources. There is a few anecdotes here and there eg current Airbnbs with high yields going for decent amounts. But that only made the news as it was not the norm in the first place.

There has been no specific studies about Dublin (that I'm aware of anyway) but you have been presented with quite a bit of evidence in this thread which you choose to ignore.

newacc2015 wrote: »

There are plenty of studies in the US on America, which support my opinion that 1% of the housing stock of a city being Airbnb isnt distorting the market.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/airbnb-probably-isnt-driving-rents-up-much-at-least-not-yet/

Actually studies have been mixed and plenty have shown a significant impact.

This study "found a direct correlation (.93 out of a 1.0 scale) between the concentration of Airbnb listings in a particular area and the median rental price. In these areas of the city, the number of Impact Listings and rental prices are both increasing at similar rates".

Other studies have found the same.

newacc2015 wrote: »

Research from Berlin on Airbnb. A mere 0.5% of the housing stock was Airbnb, but the council blamed Airbnb for the housing shortage.But the real reason was lack of local housing was being built by Berlin Authorities.

https://www.airbnbaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/AirbnbandtheBerlinhousingmarket.pdf

How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that it's not the percentage of the entire housing stock, it's the percentage of the private rental market. More specifically private rental units newly coming up for rent.

newacc2015 wrote: »

There is hardly any credible evidence on Airbnbs and rents in Dublin

There is plenty of evidence. Keep burying your head in the sand.

Michael D Not Higgins

gaffer91 wrote: »

How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that it's not the percentage of the entire housing stock, it's the percentage of the private rental market. More specifically private rental units newly coming up for rent.

It's not even just that, AirBnBs are likely to be in the areas that both the young renters and tourists want to stay, hence why the 1% figure jumps to 16% in Spencer Dock for example and could be as high as 33% if it's split 50/50 owner occupied and rented.

It's clear it does have an effect, how much is up for debate without any clear data to work with. But as a single measure in conjunction with others to increase residential housing supply, it can only have a positive effect.

Bob24

dudara wrote: »

Removing AirBnb will put visitors back into the hotel market which is already stretched in Dublin. Room rates will rise and possibly deter tourism and business.

For every up, there's a down.

If there is a binary choice as described above, the question is: should priority be given to the residents of the city or to tourists? And while tourism is good, if many long term residents fail to secure proper accommodation it would probably be more of a critical fail in terms of the city council and the government's primary duties than tourism figures ceasing to increase.

Also I would keep in mind that hotels tend to be more tax compliant, generate more jobs, and cause less bother to long term residents of apartment blocks - all things which are positive for the city.

With these things said, overall my preference as a Dublin resident would definitely be to encourage a slow but steady development of tourism with associated investments in the hotel industry rather that offloading surges of tourists to residential blocks.

As far as businesses are concerned, in my opinion they are probably more concerned about availability of affordable accommodation for their Dublin based staff (more expensive accommodation means higher salaries) that they are about the hotel rates for overseas employees visiting on short term business trips.

L1011

If the hotel market gets a further increase, its possible that hotels at the dive end, some of which have removed themselves entirely from the tourist market to get guaranteed DCC emergency accommodation income, will return to renting these rooms to tourists.

Nothing here is going to suddenly cause rents to fall and the crisis to end

sondagefaux

newacc2015 wrote: »

sondagefaux wrote: »

Here's a prime example of how Airbnb has been used in a manner which causes a shortage of properties available for long-term rental:



So that's 40 houses off the long-term rental market being used for Airbnb instead. Are people still trying to claim that Airbnb isn't having a distorting effect on long-term rental prices in Dublin?

This article is incorrect. It was 40 bedrooms he was renting on Airbnb, which is nothing close to 40 house

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/airbnb-host-claims-he-sub-lets-40-rented-rooms-in-dublin-1.2841981

There is very little evidence to show Airbnb is actually distorting the rents in Dublin( I know unpopular opinion, but look at the facts). Plenty of people are saying it, but arent actually showing any credible sources. There is a few anecdotes here and there eg current Airbnbs with high yields going for decent amounts. But that only made the news as it was not the norm in the first place.

There are plenty of studies in the US on America, which support my opinion that 1% of the housing stock of a city being Airbnb isnt distorting the market.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/airbnb-probably-isnt-driving-rents-up-much-at-least-not-yet/

Research from Berlin on Airbnb. A mere 0.5% of the housing stock was Airbnb, but the council blamed Airbnb for the housing shortage.But the real reason was lack of local housing was being built by Berlin Authorities.

https://www.airbnbaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/AirbnbandtheBerlinhousingmarket.pdf

There is hardly any credible evidence on Airbnbs and rents in Dublin

40 bedrooms in 40 houses and apartments, which is 40 houses and apartments being used for Airbnb, with 40 bedrooms unavailable for long-term rental.

beauf

L1011 wrote: »

...Nothing here is going to suddenly cause rents to fall and the crisis to end

Exactly.

I think there some deflection here (denial even) of the bigger long term issues.

Graham

beauf wrote: »

Exactly.

I think there some deflection here (denial even) of the bigger long term issues.

I keep seeing this strawman argument 'banning AirBnB will fix the rental crisis'.

I've seen no such suggestion.

The suggestion is largely, restricting the large-scale removal of long-term residential accommodation for short-term rentals should see a couple of thousand properties return to their original purpose.

Nobody can sanely believe two thousand additional long-term rentals on the Dublin market isn't going to help.

Sharktopus

Graham wrote: »

I keep seeing this strawman argument 'banning AirBnB will fix the rental crisis'.

I've seen no such suggestion.

The suggestion is largely, restricting the large-scale removal of long-term residential accommodation for short-term rentals should see a couple of thousand properties return to their original purpose.

Nobody can sanely believe two thousand additional long-term rentals on the Dublin market isn't going to help.

Exactly!

And it's something that with the correct political will can be actioned immediately. I can think of no other measure that will have a faster impact on supply. These are short term lets - once the tenants leave they can be put back on the residential market with very little effort.

Graham

Sharktopus wrote: »

Exactly!

And it's something that with the correct political will can be actioned immediately. I can think of no other measure that will have a faster impact on supply. These are short term lets - once the tenants leave they can be put back on the residential market with very little effort.

+1

I can't think of a better way to instantly add around 2,000 properties to the market.

seamus

Graham wrote: »

+1

I can't think of a better way to instantly add around 2,000 properties to the market.

Maybe not 2,000. There's an argument that a large number of people would rather the property sit vacant than make it available for long-term rentals.

But it would be a significant number of properties added to the market nonetheless.

Graham

seamus wrote: »

Maybe not 2,000. There's an argument that a large number of people would rather the property sit vacant than make it available for long-term rentals.

But it would be a significant number of properties added to the market nonetheless.

I very much doubt there's anything more than a handful of property owners/investors in and around Dublin city that are prepared to leave a €300,000+ investment/asset doing nothing?

For the most part they will return to the long-term rental market or they will be put up for sale.

beauf

Graham wrote: »

I very much doubt there's anything more than a handful of property owners/investors in and around Dublin city that are prepared to leave a €300,000+ investment/asset doing nothing?

For the most part they will return to the long-term rental market or they will be put up for sale.

Vacancy rates for housing vary widely by county but the overall rate stands at 12.8 per cent. Total vacant dwellings in Dublin, including holiday homes, numbered more than 36,000.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/census-2016-number-of-vacant-houses-scandalous-1.2722435

Graham

beauf wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/census-2016-number-of-vacant-houses-scandalous-1.2722435

I'm not sure what that has to do with the release of current AirBnB properties back to the market. These property owners have already demonstrated they value an income from the property.

Another snippet from the linked article:

“The other thing that’s an outlier from the previous census is the rise of [short-term letting website] Airbnb. They can’t not have an impact,”

beauf

You're inferring it will have major impact, others are suggesting its not significant to the bigger picture.

It very similar to the championing for rent controls and increased regulation, as a means to reduce rent and protecting tenancy. When it just accelerated the opposite, when implemented in isolation.

Its why 36,000 vacant properties is a "handful" but '1500 to 2000 is significant and will have a major impact.

Despite the strawman, I don't think anyone is suggesting it won't have an impact. Rather its over stated.

Graham

beauf wrote: »

You're inferring it will have major impact, others are suggesting its not significant to the bigger picture.

I'm not inferring anything, you are.

I'm saying it.

The removal of 2000 AirBnB rentals in and around Dublin city centre and their subsequent return to the long-term residential market will have a significant positive impact on residential lettings in that area.

It's not a silver bullet solution to the current rental crisis but it will have an almost immediate and significant impact.

Sharktopus

beauf wrote: »

You're inferring it will have major impact, others are suggesting its not significant to the bigger picture.

It very similar to the championing for rent controls and increased regulation, as a means to reduce rent and protecting tenancy. When it just accelerated the opposite, when implemented in isolation.

Its why 36,000 vacant properties is a "handful" but '1500 to 2000 is significant and will have a major impact.

Despite the strawman, I don't think anyone is suggesting it won't have an impact. Rather its over stated.

36k is of course significant, however more info is needed on this figure - how many are in probate, are uninhabitable, are currently for sale etc.

The key point on the Airbnb properties is they are for the most part in prime locations that are in high demand.

Graham

Sharktopus wrote: »

The key point on the Airbnb properties is they are for the most part in prime locations that are in high demand.

+1

and a very significant proportion of them were residential lettings before AirBnB offered a more lucrative alternative.

hytrogen

That "significant portion" are in such places as the market adapts to the supply available. You need a dynamic and flexible accommodation market in major cities now as the dynamics and economies change. This tiny percentage of the market it supplying a tiny niche of the overall accommodation market and yet we're blowing it up like it'll be the end of the housing stock, it won't. Many LL might not want to deal with their tenants or clients in such a medium. Many will stay as long term lease holdings, some will diverse into shorter term perhaps while they are arranging for new tenures and then go back to long term clients.