Landlords solely using AirBnB for lettings now require planning permission

Graham

seamus wrote: »

He won't. He'll just stop paying it and tell the landlords he's gone.

There's no such thing as a class action in Ireland and the odds of any of the landlords suing him for insufficient notice are minimal when they can take his deposit and rent out the property again very quickly.

I'd more imagined a rather large string of complaints lodged with the PRTB. No cost at all to the landlords involved

beauf

Graham wrote: »

I'd more imagined a rather large string of complaints lodged with the PRTB. No cost at all to the landlords involved

Unless people overstay then the LL is a right mess.

Graham

beauf wrote: »

Unless people overstay then the LL is a right mess.

Would be interesting to see how he manages to overstay in 40 places at once.

beauf

Graham wrote: »

Would be interesting to see how he manages to overstay in 40 places at once.

http://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/the-three-stages-of-a-tenancy/what-is-subletting-
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tenants_rights_and_obligations.html

You may not assign or sublet the tenancy

Graham

beauf wrote: »

http://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/the-three-stages-of-a-tenancy/what-is-subletting-
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tenants_rights_and_obligations.html

I understand the no-subletting, not sure how that answers the question though.

beauf

I would have thought its obvious. The people the tenant sublet to have never been vetted by the Owner. If they overstay in practical terms, it all comes back on the Owner to sort it out if the tenant does a runner. Considering it was hassle with the AirBnB customers that brought this case to light. One of the reasons to use AirBnB by the middle man is to avoid all this.

Its a mess.

sondagefaux

One way of ensuring that tenants don't sublet without the express permission of the landlord would be to make it a strict liability criminal offence to do so, with complete forfeiture of all gross income received from subletting as a mandatory part of the penalty. If people knew that they could go to prison, and would definitely lose all the money they got from subletting without permission, whether via Airbnb or through another method, they would be far less inclined to do so.

the_syco

beauf wrote: »

Is there any meaningful govt action on the supply shortage??

Not really. Seem to be ignoring the fact that landlords are using AirBnB to avoid having to tent to tenants.

If the landlord doesn't want to RA, they won't. Laws that only help the tenant will actually go against the tenant in the long run. LL's can no longer say "no" to people on RA, so the new law ensures that their time is wasted going to a house that they won't get. Increasing the RA just means that LL's will increase their rent to beyond it.

Until the government sorts out Landlords rights, IMO there shall only be a gradual reduction in the properties rented out, if not to AirBnB, then to something the same, but under a different name.

Michael D Not Higgins

Mod: No witch hunts

seamus

Graham wrote: »

I'd more imagined a rather large string of complaints lodged with the PRTB. No cost at all to the landlords involved

A case gets opened with the RTB and he sends the keys back to the landlord and says sayonara. There's realistically very little the LL or RTB can do to him if he's moved out.

newacc2015

sondagefaux wrote: »

Here's a prime example of how Airbnb has been used in a manner which causes a shortage of properties available for long-term rental:



So that's 40 houses off the long-term rental market being used for Airbnb instead. Are people still trying to claim that Airbnb isn't having a distorting effect on long-term rental prices in Dublin?

This article is incorrect. It was 40 bedrooms he was renting on Airbnb, which is nothing close to 40 house

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/airbnb-host-claims-he-sub-lets-40-rented-rooms-in-dublin-1.2841981

There is very little evidence to show Airbnb is actually distorting the rents in Dublin( I know unpopular opinion, but look at the facts). Plenty of people are saying it, but arent actually showing any credible sources. There is a few anecdotes here and there eg current Airbnbs with high yields going for decent amounts. But that only made the news as it was not the norm in the first place.

There are plenty of studies in the US on America, which support my opinion that 1% of the housing stock of a city being Airbnb isnt distorting the market.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/airbnb-probably-isnt-driving-rents-up-much-at-least-not-yet/

Research from Berlin on Airbnb. A mere 0.5% of the housing stock was Airbnb, but the council blamed Airbnb for the housing shortage.But the real reason was lack of local housing was being built by Berlin Authorities.

https://www.airbnbaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/AirbnbandtheBerlinhousingmarket.pdf

There is hardly any credible evidence on Airbnbs and rents in Dublin

Graham

newacc2015 wrote: »

This article is incorrect. It was 40 bedrooms he was renting on Airbnb, which is nothing close to 40 house

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/airbnb-host-claims-he-sub-lets-40-rented-rooms-in-dublin-1.2841981

There is very little evidence to show Airbnb is actually distorting the rents in Dublin( I know unpopular opinion, but look at the facts). Plenty of people are saying it, but arent actually showing any credible sources. There is a few anecdotes here and there eg current Airbnbs with high yields going for decent amounts. But that only made the news as it was not the norm in the first place.

There are plenty of studies in the US on America, which support my opinion that 1% of the housing stock of a city being Airbnb isnt distorting the market.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/airbnb-probably-isnt-driving-rents-up-much-at-least-not-yet/

Research from Berlin on Airbnb. A mere 0.5% of the housing stock was Airbnb, but the council blamed Airbnb for the housing shortage.But the real reason was lack of local housing was being built by Berlin Authorities.

https://www.airbnbaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/AirbnbandtheBerlinhousingmarket.pdf

There is hardly any credible evidence on Airbnbs and rents in Dublin

How does any of that fit with the experience in Spencer Dock where the management company suggest 100 out of 600 apartments are being let as holiday accommodation?

You keep stating AirBnB has no effect on the rental market but consistently choose to ignore the evidence presented to the contrary.

gaffer91

newacc2015 wrote: »

This article is incorrect. It was 40 bedrooms he was renting on Airbnb, which is nothing close to 40 house

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/airbnb-host-claims-he-sub-lets-40-rented-rooms-in-dublin-1.2841981

That is actually a massive amount for one individual.

newacc2015 wrote: »

There is very little evidence to show Airbnb is actually distorting the rents in Dublin( I know unpopular opinion, but look at the facts). Plenty of people are saying it, but arent actually showing any credible sources. There is a few anecdotes here and there eg current Airbnbs with high yields going for decent amounts. But that only made the news as it was not the norm in the first place.

There has been no specific studies about Dublin (that I'm aware of anyway) but you have been presented with quite a bit of evidence in this thread which you choose to ignore.

newacc2015 wrote: »

There are plenty of studies in the US on America, which support my opinion that 1% of the housing stock of a city being Airbnb isnt distorting the market.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/airbnb-probably-isnt-driving-rents-up-much-at-least-not-yet/

Actually studies have been mixed and plenty have shown a significant impact.

This study "found a direct correlation (.93 out of a 1.0 scale) between the concentration of Airbnb listings in a particular area and the median rental price. In these areas of the city, the number of Impact Listings and rental prices are both increasing at similar rates".

Other studies have found the same.

newacc2015 wrote: »

Research from Berlin on Airbnb. A mere 0.5% of the housing stock was Airbnb, but the council blamed Airbnb for the housing shortage.But the real reason was lack of local housing was being built by Berlin Authorities.

https://www.airbnbaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/AirbnbandtheBerlinhousingmarket.pdf

How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that it's not the percentage of the entire housing stock, it's the percentage of the private rental market. More specifically private rental units newly coming up for rent.

newacc2015 wrote: »

There is hardly any credible evidence on Airbnbs and rents in Dublin

There is plenty of evidence. Keep burying your head in the sand.

Michael D Not Higgins

gaffer91 wrote: »

How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that it's not the percentage of the entire housing stock, it's the percentage of the private rental market. More specifically private rental units newly coming up for rent.

It's not even just that, AirBnBs are likely to be in the areas that both the young renters and tourists want to stay, hence why the 1% figure jumps to 16% in Spencer Dock for example and could be as high as 33% if it's split 50/50 owner occupied and rented.

It's clear it does have an effect, how much is up for debate without any clear data to work with. But as a single measure in conjunction with others to increase residential housing supply, it can only have a positive effect.

Bob24

dudara wrote: »

Removing AirBnb will put visitors back into the hotel market which is already stretched in Dublin. Room rates will rise and possibly deter tourism and business.

For every up, there's a down.

If there is a binary choice as described above, the question is: should priority be given to the residents of the city or to tourists? And while tourism is good, if many long term residents fail to secure proper accommodation it would probably be more of a critical fail in terms of the city council and the government's primary duties than tourism figures ceasing to increase.

Also I would keep in mind that hotels tend to be more tax compliant, generate more jobs, and cause less bother to long term residents of apartment blocks - all things which are positive for the city.

With these things said, overall my preference as a Dublin resident would definitely be to encourage a slow but steady development of tourism with associated investments in the hotel industry rather that offloading surges of tourists to residential blocks.

As far as businesses are concerned, in my opinion they are probably more concerned about availability of affordable accommodation for their Dublin based staff (more expensive accommodation means higher salaries) that they are about the hotel rates for overseas employees visiting on short term business trips.

L1011

If the hotel market gets a further increase, its possible that hotels at the dive end, some of which have removed themselves entirely from the tourist market to get guaranteed DCC emergency accommodation income, will return to renting these rooms to tourists.

Nothing here is going to suddenly cause rents to fall and the crisis to end

sondagefaux

newacc2015 wrote: »

sondagefaux wrote: »

Here's a prime example of how Airbnb has been used in a manner which causes a shortage of properties available for long-term rental:



So that's 40 houses off the long-term rental market being used for Airbnb instead. Are people still trying to claim that Airbnb isn't having a distorting effect on long-term rental prices in Dublin?

This article is incorrect. It was 40 bedrooms he was renting on Airbnb, which is nothing close to 40 house

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/airbnb-host-claims-he-sub-lets-40-rented-rooms-in-dublin-1.2841981

There is very little evidence to show Airbnb is actually distorting the rents in Dublin( I know unpopular opinion, but look at the facts). Plenty of people are saying it, but arent actually showing any credible sources. There is a few anecdotes here and there eg current Airbnbs with high yields going for decent amounts. But that only made the news as it was not the norm in the first place.

There are plenty of studies in the US on America, which support my opinion that 1% of the housing stock of a city being Airbnb isnt distorting the market.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/airbnb-probably-isnt-driving-rents-up-much-at-least-not-yet/

Research from Berlin on Airbnb. A mere 0.5% of the housing stock was Airbnb, but the council blamed Airbnb for the housing shortage.But the real reason was lack of local housing was being built by Berlin Authorities.

https://www.airbnbaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/AirbnbandtheBerlinhousingmarket.pdf

There is hardly any credible evidence on Airbnbs and rents in Dublin

40 bedrooms in 40 houses and apartments, which is 40 houses and apartments being used for Airbnb, with 40 bedrooms unavailable for long-term rental.

beauf

L1011 wrote: »

...Nothing here is going to suddenly cause rents to fall and the crisis to end

Exactly.

I think there some deflection here (denial even) of the bigger long term issues.

Graham

beauf wrote: »

Exactly.

I think there some deflection here (denial even) of the bigger long term issues.

I keep seeing this strawman argument 'banning AirBnB will fix the rental crisis'.

I've seen no such suggestion.

The suggestion is largely, restricting the large-scale removal of long-term residential accommodation for short-term rentals should see a couple of thousand properties return to their original purpose.

Nobody can sanely believe two thousand additional long-term rentals on the Dublin market isn't going to help.

Sharktopus

Graham wrote: »

I keep seeing this strawman argument 'banning AirBnB will fix the rental crisis'.

I've seen no such suggestion.

The suggestion is largely, restricting the large-scale removal of long-term residential accommodation for short-term rentals should see a couple of thousand properties return to their original purpose.

Nobody can sanely believe two thousand additional long-term rentals on the Dublin market isn't going to help.

Exactly!

And it's something that with the correct political will can be actioned immediately. I can think of no other measure that will have a faster impact on supply. These are short term lets - once the tenants leave they can be put back on the residential market with very little effort.

Graham

Sharktopus wrote: »

Exactly!

And it's something that with the correct political will can be actioned immediately. I can think of no other measure that will have a faster impact on supply. These are short term lets - once the tenants leave they can be put back on the residential market with very little effort.

+1

I can't think of a better way to instantly add around 2,000 properties to the market.

seamus

Graham wrote: »

+1

I can't think of a better way to instantly add around 2,000 properties to the market.

Maybe not 2,000. There's an argument that a large number of people would rather the property sit vacant than make it available for long-term rentals.

But it would be a significant number of properties added to the market nonetheless.

Graham

seamus wrote: »

Maybe not 2,000. There's an argument that a large number of people would rather the property sit vacant than make it available for long-term rentals.

But it would be a significant number of properties added to the market nonetheless.

I very much doubt there's anything more than a handful of property owners/investors in and around Dublin city that are prepared to leave a €300,000+ investment/asset doing nothing?

For the most part they will return to the long-term rental market or they will be put up for sale.

beauf

Graham wrote: »

I very much doubt there's anything more than a handful of property owners/investors in and around Dublin city that are prepared to leave a €300,000+ investment/asset doing nothing?

For the most part they will return to the long-term rental market or they will be put up for sale.

Vacancy rates for housing vary widely by county but the overall rate stands at 12.8 per cent. Total vacant dwellings in Dublin, including holiday homes, numbered more than 36,000.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/census-2016-number-of-vacant-houses-scandalous-1.2722435

Graham

beauf wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/census-2016-number-of-vacant-houses-scandalous-1.2722435

I'm not sure what that has to do with the release of current AirBnB properties back to the market. These property owners have already demonstrated they value an income from the property.

Another snippet from the linked article:

“The other thing that’s an outlier from the previous census is the rise of [short-term letting website] Airbnb. They can’t not have an impact,”

beauf

You're inferring it will have major impact, others are suggesting its not significant to the bigger picture.

It very similar to the championing for rent controls and increased regulation, as a means to reduce rent and protecting tenancy. When it just accelerated the opposite, when implemented in isolation.

Its why 36,000 vacant properties is a "handful" but '1500 to 2000 is significant and will have a major impact.

Despite the strawman, I don't think anyone is suggesting it won't have an impact. Rather its over stated.

Graham

beauf wrote: »

You're inferring it will have major impact, others are suggesting its not significant to the bigger picture.

I'm not inferring anything, you are.

I'm saying it.

The removal of 2000 AirBnB rentals in and around Dublin city centre and their subsequent return to the long-term residential market will have a significant positive impact on residential lettings in that area.

It's not a silver bullet solution to the current rental crisis but it will have an almost immediate and significant impact.

Sharktopus

beauf wrote: »

You're inferring it will have major impact, others are suggesting its not significant to the bigger picture.

It very similar to the championing for rent controls and increased regulation, as a means to reduce rent and protecting tenancy. When it just accelerated the opposite, when implemented in isolation.

Its why 36,000 vacant properties is a "handful" but '1500 to 2000 is significant and will have a major impact.

Despite the strawman, I don't think anyone is suggesting it won't have an impact. Rather its over stated.

36k is of course significant, however more info is needed on this figure - how many are in probate, are uninhabitable, are currently for sale etc.

The key point on the Airbnb properties is they are for the most part in prime locations that are in high demand.

Graham

Sharktopus wrote: »

The key point on the Airbnb properties is they are for the most part in prime locations that are in high demand.

+1

and a very significant proportion of them were residential lettings before AirBnB offered a more lucrative alternative.

hytrogen

That "significant portion" are in such places as the market adapts to the supply available. You need a dynamic and flexible accommodation market in major cities now as the dynamics and economies change. This tiny percentage of the market it supplying a tiny niche of the overall accommodation market and yet we're blowing it up like it'll be the end of the housing stock, it won't. Many LL might not want to deal with their tenants or clients in such a medium. Many will stay as long term lease holdings, some will diverse into shorter term perhaps while they are arranging for new tenures and then go back to long term clients.