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Landlords solely using AirBnB for lettings now require planning permission

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    #182
    daithi7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭daithi7


    Graham wrote: »
    Probably waiting for the next AirBnB customers to arrive at the weekend.

    Purely anecdotally of course.

    Usually if an apartment is too expensive, the rent is reduced. There's no evidence at all to suggest there's hundreds of landlords keeping empty properties around the IFSC because of a lack of tenants willing to pay the rent being asked.

    Loads of these apartments are occasional use properties in Dublin, & elsewhere in Ireland.. (For work, investment, student sons or daughters, to have a place near the kids, home, etc, etc) that's what Airbnb happiest for from a property owner's point of view. Not everyone wants the onerous duties of being a long term leaser of their property. They don't want the possibility of occasional use of their own property denied by having a long term tenant, the obligations to a long term tenant, the potential hassle getting tenants to leave (just check the countless threads in detailing such situations usually from the often militant tenant's perspective, who are most often on trying to protect their 'oh so precious ' rights. Can you understand this!?

    Airbnb allows people derive a casual income from short term lettings ,without any huge obligations, while still allowing owners use their apartment or other property when they like. This helps tourists, visitors and property owners and indirectly government coffers (which they can then use to provide social housing, improve planning processing, reduce red tape for housing, etc, etc, etc) How bad hey!?

    P.s. the only issues that are someway relevant to short term letting imho, are that it is managed well so that neighbours and the neighbourhood are not unduly disturbed, and a lessor issue is that prioperty owners pay their correct share of tax.. (The latter can be easily facilitated by obliging airbnb to provide details of the lettings agreed in Ireland say). If properties and property owners satisfy both those criterion I think they should be allowed to work away providing a valuable tourist and visitor resource for the city, region and country. Long may it continue & damn the begrudgers!! :-)


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    #183
    dubdev
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭dubdev


    I live in Spencer Dock since 2014, and have been one of the residents affected by short-term lets. Both the apartment immediately above and below us were being used for this purpose, although the owner is resident in the apartment below.

    In case you didn't see it in the news, our management company sent around a letter two weeks ago to all apartments stating that short-term lets were banned going forward on foot of many complaints being made about noise, security, total strangers to the complex coming and going at all hours in the common areas, and general anti-social behaviour. As it turns out, short-term lets contravene the development's planning permission, as well as several covenants of the head lease and many of the development's house rules.

    Needless to say I am pretty delighted and surprised with this outcome. I didn't think the management agency would take such a strong position on the issue but they have. They are deadly serious about it too, and have stated they will take legal action against any owners who persist with short-term lets.

    In my case, I'm pretty sure the apartment above us is still taking short-term lets, but it has definitely been quieter. I found the apartment on AirBnB and the guy who listed it isn't taking bookings right now, although I'm not sure if AirBnB allows you to PM a host even if he isn't taking bookings.

    It's a two bed apt, but he says it can take six people at 107 per person per night.
    Over the summer, the place was turning over guests every 2-3 nights so I can only imagine how much cash it brought it in.

    I noticed the lister says he lives in an apartment in Grand Canal Dock which is also on AirBnB, but is also renting out the one in Spencer Dock. This piqued my interest so what I'm wondering now is if he owns the apartment above us, or if he is sub-letting it, possibly unknown to the landlord. Spencer Dock rents for about 1800 a month, but you could bring in double that in AirBnB income if you had the place packed all year round.

    Any advice as to how I might find out who the owner is? I don't know if the property management agency will tell us.


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    #184
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    daithi7 wrote: »
    Loads of these apartments are occasional use properties in Dublin

    Any evidence at all to support that theory?

    Unless by 'occassional use' you mean whenever an AirBnB client comes along.


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    #185
    dubdev
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭dubdev


    daithi7 wrote: »
    P.s. the only issues that are someway relevant to short term letting imho, are that it is managed well so that neighbours and the neighbourhood are not unduly disturbed, and a lessor issue is that prioperty owners pay their correct share of tax.. (The latter can be easily facilitated by obliging airbnb to provide details of the lettings agreed in Ireland say). If properties and property owners satisfy both those criterion I think they should be allowed to work away providing a valuable tourist and visitor resource for the city, region and country. Long may it continue & damn the begrudgers!! :-)

    That is a massive over-simplification of the problem. Being a property-owner does not entitle you to do whatever you want with that property. You are subject to planning laws, and in the case of an apartment, a head lease and house rules as well.

    Also, the issues caused by short-term letting go well beyond paying taxes and keeping the noise down in an apartment complex designated for private residential use.

    They present a security concern when you have a constant revolving door of strangers coming and going through the common areas, increased wear and tear on the development facilities, and a possible threat to the resale value of your property if you are trying to sell it as a private residence but are sandwiched between party/holiday flats.

    One recurring theme I've noticed is that owners who oppose limits on use of AirBnB consistently overlook one group of people - other owners in a development who live there. They didn't sign up to live in what may become an unstaffed unofficial hotel. What about their rights?


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    #186
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graham wrote: »
    Probably waiting for the next AirBnB customers to arrive at the weekend.

    Purely anecdotally of course.

    Usually if an apartment is too expensive, the rent is reduced. There's no evidence at all to suggest there's hundreds of landlords keeping empty properties around the IFSC because of a lack of tenants willing to pay the rent being asked.

    You see a lot of apartments empty in the area and many of them for very long time. In the same lots of the office space is empty around the area. I have no idea, why, I was suggesting its perhaps the rent. Maybe they are just investments and have no interest in renting. Who knows. I don't know of any study on why properties are vacant. Well other than the census.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/houses-empty-around-the-country-2783895-May2016/
    http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/ten-per-cent-of-homes-in-ireland-lie-vacant-census-reveals-34886971.html

    I know a few who rent to AirBNB in the area, when they can get tenants and move back in themselves when they don't have any. Prior to using AirBnB they just stayed there themselves. They only use AirBnB to subsidise their own rent/Mortgage or indeed their holidays.


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    #187
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    beauf wrote: »
    You see a lot of apartments empty in the area and many of them for very long time. In the same lots of the office space is empty around the area. I have no idea, why, I was suggesting its perhaps the rent. Maybe they are just investments and have no interest in renting. Who knows. I don't know of any study on why properties are vacant. Well other than the census.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/houses-empty-around-the-country-2783895-May2016/
    http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/ten-per-cent-of-homes-in-ireland-lie-vacant-census-reveals-34886971.html

    I know a few who rent to AirBNB in the area, when they can get tenants and move back in themselves when they don't have any. Prior to using AirBnB they just stayed there themselves. They only use AirBnB to subsidise their own rent/Mortgage or indeed their holidays.

    I'd imagine a lot of the empty apartments are belonged to NAMA, I know a good few around Dublin in this situation.


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    #188
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I know a few people who bought buy to let apartments in dublin central a few years back and back then there was even more empty apartments around the IFSC back then, it was really quiet. Which put off people and it put them off thinking they wouldn't be able to rent them, if there wasn't much demand. Since then of course theres been an explosion of building and new companies in the area, and you have the central bank etc. You can see it in the pedestrian traffic, it vastly busier now. Yet goes completely quiet in the evenings, weekends.


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    #189
    gaffer91
    Registered Users Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    beauf wrote: »
    Purely anecdotal and from my own observations, I think a lot of them were long term empty. I still see lots of empty apartments around D.1/IFSC area. Probably too expensive.

    You criticise my anecdotal evidence and one word later you're citing your own anecdotal evidence. Unbelievable.

    Anyway, even if what you said is true, which it isn't, that's a separate issue. People opposed to Airbnb have repeatedly said banning it is not a cure all. Other measures need to be taken as well- for instance, in this case, you could impose heavy taxes on apartments that aren't occupied for a certain amount of the year. This has no bearing on whether Airbnb should be banned or not.

    However what you've "observed" is completely false and you just want it to be true as you're biased in favour of Airbnb for whatever reason. So my suggestion probably won't have much impact in Dublin's case. London maybe, but not Dublin.


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    #190
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    beauf wrote: »
    You see a lot of apartments empty in the area and many of them for very long time. In the same lots of the office space is empty around the area. I have no idea, why, I was suggesting its perhaps the rent. Maybe they are just investments and have no interest in renting. Who knows. I don't know of any study on why properties are vacant. Well other than the census.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/houses-empty-around-the-country-2783895-May2016/
    http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/ten-per-cent-of-homes-in-ireland-lie-vacant-census-reveals-34886971.html

    I know a few who rent to AirBNB in the area, when they can get tenants and move back in themselves when they don't have any. Prior to using AirBnB they just stayed there themselves. They only use AirBnB to subsidise their own rent/Mortgage or indeed their holidays.

    Lots of apartments were handed back to banks or repossessed by banks when the buy to let owners found they could not cover the mortgages. Most of these are empty as banks are not interested in making money from renting them out.


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    #191
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    You criticise my anecdotal evidence and one word later you're citing your own anecdotal evidence. Unbelievable.

    Anyway, even if what you said is true, which it isn't, that's a separate issue. People opposed to Airbnb have repeatedly said banning it is not a cure all. Other measures need to be taken as well- for instance, in this case, you could impose heavy taxes on apartments that aren't occupied for a certain amount of the year. This has no bearing on whether Airbnb should be banned or not.

    However what you've "observed" is completely false and you just want it to be true as you're biased in favour of Airbnb for whatever reason. So my suggestion probably won't have much impact in Dublin's case. London maybe, but not Dublin.

    I didn't criticize your comment (evidence?) I just pointed out it was anecdotal. Which you've just agreed it is. So whats the problem. If you're posting anecdotal comment, then you can hardly have a problem with other anecdotal comment. Especially if its declared as such. Its declared as anecdotal because its not offered as fact, just personal observation, which is fallible.

    I'm not sure how looking at empty apartments and offices is false. They must be imaginary so. Likewise the census.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Lots of apartments were handed back to banks or repossessed by banks when the buy to let owners found they could not cover the mortgages. Most of these are empty as banks are not interested in making money from renting them out.

    Nama want to sell them not rent them too. But I'm always curious when you see apartments and houses empty for very long periods, why it is the case.


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    #192
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Lots of apartments were handed back to banks or repossessed by banks when the buy to let owners found they could not cover the mortgages. Most of these are empty as banks are not interested in making money from renting them out.

    Repossession can take years if the borrowers refuse to engage.


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    #193
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    RaulDublin wrote: »
    I also think that a large part of the problem is hosts evading taxes and there being no way to enforce it unless Airbnb shared the information on hosts and their earnings with the local councils. Something which they should do if they aren't already ?

    Eh? Airbnb hands a file to Revenue every year stating how much each host made on the site. They have done so for the last year or two. They also gave Revenue hosts income from previous years. Airbnb also collects VAT for the state on every booking. Airbnb lettings are not long term leases, so you shouldn't be able to claim mortgage interest relief. As a result, the tax take on Airbnb lettings in Ireland is massive

    Lets compare that to all the 'institutional investors' who have snapped up about €10-12bn in Irish property. Most are not paying a cent in tax on rents or their capital gains when they sell the properties. It is far fetched to assume a single Airbnb host is paying more tax on their listing than a institutional investor with €100m of Irish property


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    #194
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    Graham wrote: »
    Repossession can take years if the borrowers refuse to engage.

    If it is a residential property. If it is a BTL, it is a free for all( most solicitors would agree). Depending on your bank, if you are a BTL investor your mortgage might have a clause that the bank can put in a receiver within 2 months of missed payments. A receiver if the title is clean and good on the property can put up a for sale sign immediately and the property can be sold ASAP. It doesnt make a difference if a borrower is engaging or not, the bank can put in a receiver and the property is gone


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    #195
    Elliott S
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭Elliott S


    daithi7 wrote: »
    Long may it continue & damn the begrudgers!! :-)

    Er, well, I don't think it's going to continue! It may go back to what it initially was, which would be great.


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    #196
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    Airbnb lettings are not long term leases, so you shouldn't be able to claim mortgage interest relief. As a result, the tax take on Airbnb lettings in Ireland is massive

    Interest is a deductible expense on AirBnb like it is in every other business (except residential letting, where it is restricted).


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    #197
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Interest is a deductible expense on AirBnb like it is in every other business (except residential letting, where it is restricted).

    Are you sure? As the tax code clearly states for mortgage interest relief to be tax deductible the property needs to be RTB registered if it is a rental property. If you are doing Airbnb you wont be RTB registered, so you cant claim mortgage interest relief

    "For 2006 onwards interest on money borrowed for the purchase, improvement or repair of rented residential properties is not deductible unless you can show that you have complied with the registration requirements of the Private Residential Tenancies Board in relation to all tenancies that existed in the particular premises in the chargeable period in question."

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it70.html


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    #198
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    Are you sure? As the tax code clearly states for mortgage interest relief to be tax deductible the property needs to be RTB registered if it is a rental property. If you are doing Airbnb you wont be RTB registered, so you cant claim mortgage interest relief

    "For 2006 onwards interest on money borrowed for the purchase, improvement or repair of rented residential properties is not deductible unless you can show that you have complied with the registration requirements of the Private Residential Tenancies Board in relation to all tenancies that existed in the particular premises in the chargeable period in question."

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it70.html

    The property is not capable of being registered with the RTB. As such it is not a rental property. The income is not treated as rental income. There are no tenancies in the property. The income and deductions are the same as for guest house, hotel etc.


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    #199
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    Are you sure? As the tax code clearly states for mortgage interest relief to be tax deductible the property needs to be RTB registered if it is a rental property. If you are doing Airbnb you wont be RTB registered, so you cant claim mortgage interest relief

    "For 2006 onwards interest on money borrowed for the purchase, improvement or repair of rented residential properties is not deductible unless you can show that you have complied with the registration requirements of the Private Residential Tenancies Board in relation to all tenancies that existed in the particular premises in the chargeable period in question."

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it70.html

    AirBnB is not residential renting.


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    #200
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    The property is not capable of being registered with the RTB. As such it is not a rental property. The income is not treated as rental income. There are no tenancies in the property. The income and deductions are the same as for guest house, hotel etc.

    It is considered rental income, just commercial renting rather than residential. As such, all interest is tax deductible.


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    #201
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    beauf wrote: »
    Nama want to sell them not rent them too. But I'm always curious when you see apartments and houses empty for very long periods, why it is the case.

    Nama are not selling them in small lots but trying to sell them off in large blocks to foreign vulture funds. They are happy to sit on thousands of properties for years as it doesn't cost them anything.


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    #202
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Nama are not selling them in small lots but trying to sell them off in large blocks to foreign vulture funds. They are happy to sit on thousands of properties for years as it doesn't cost them anything.

    That is a huge problem at the moment. Whole blocks of apartments empty in Tallaght because they're belonged to NAMA. They should be forced to sell them to the local council for social housing.


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    #203
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    pilly wrote: »
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Nama are not selling them in small lots but trying to sell them off in large blocks to foreign vulture funds. They are happy to sit on thousands of properties for years as it doesn't cost them anything.

    That is a huge problem at the moment. Whole blocks of apartments empty in Tallaght because they're belonged to NAMA. They should be forced to sell them to the local council for social housing.
    Then people would be whinging that NAMA was selling them off too cheaply...


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    #204
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    Then people would be whinging that NAMA was selling them off too cheaply...

    Or they'd be complaining that they didn't go to private buyers in individual lots.


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    #205
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    It is considered rental income, just commercial renting rather than residential. As such, all interest is tax deductible.
    It is trading income, not commercial renting.


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    #206
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    Then people would be whinging that NAMA was selling them off too cheaply...
    Graham wrote: »
    Or they'd be complaining that they didn't go to private buyers in individual lots.

    So they can't win either way!! How is leaving them empty benefiting anyone? Private buyer, renter or social housing applicant.

    People have to realise that all these groups of people aren't enemies. If the social housing problem is solved the pressure will come off all groups. More houses will be available for private rental at reasonable prices and more houses will be for sale at reasonable prices.


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    #207
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    Left empty? Aren't they being sold?


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    #208
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    pilly wrote: »
    So they can't win either way!! How is leaving them empty benefiting anyone? Private buyer, renter or social housing applicant.

    Who suggested they should be left empty?


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    #209
    Harvey Normal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 750 ✭✭✭Harvey Normal


    Graham wrote: »
    Or they'd be complaining that they didn't go to private buyers in individual lots.

    So why not do that?


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    #210
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Harvey Normal wrote: »
    So why not do that?

    Let's say you have a block of 30 apartments and they're worth 200k each at open market prices. However you bought them for 180k each and someone wants to buy the lot at 190k each. You're 'losing' 300k in the deal but you're still making 300k too with much less hassle and time spent on the process. Remember, those Nama workers cost money and if you have them doing 30 times the work they're going to cost 30 times as much too.

    The numbers above are examples and I'm sure at a certain level it makes more sense to do the extra work to get the extra money, but has anyone demonstrated that it's worth doing that?


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    #211
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    Let's say you have a block of 30 apartments and they're worth 200k each at open market prices. However you bought them for 180k each and someone wants to buy the lot at 190k each. You're 'losing' 300k in the deal but you're still making 300k too with much less hassle and time spent on the process. Remember, those Nama workers cost money and if you have them doing 30 times the work they're going to cost 30 times as much too.

    The numbers above are examples and I'm sure at a certain level it makes more sense to do the extra work to get the extra money, but has anyone demonstrated that it's worth doing that?

    +1

    When selling entire blocks/developments, it's much easier to attach other conditions to the sale. E.g. X must be finished, Y must be built, purchaser must take on Z ongoing obligations/liabilities.


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