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Landlords solely using AirBnB for lettings now require planning permission

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    #212
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Graham wrote: »
    Who suggested they should be left empty?

    No-one is but that's what's happening presently is what I meant.


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    #213
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    Left empty? Aren't they being sold?

    Not at the moment, I know of blocks of apartments that have been empty for years and continue to be.


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    #214
    wotswattage
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭wotswattage


    Sharktopus wrote: »
    36k is of course significant, however more info is needed on this figure - how many are in probate, are uninhabitable, are currently for sale etc.

    The key point on the Airbnb properties is they are for the most part in prime locations that are in high demand.

    Sorry for quoting a post from ages ago but it best highlights the issue I'm asking about.

    Looking at Daft as a starting point there are approx 1250 properties ready to rent in Dublin city (all property types all lease types). Surely the 1500-2000 air bnb properties (all types) have a huge effect on the current immediate rental market??

    I believe it's a huge issue for people looking to move/rent right now.


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    #215
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Even if you ban AirBnB not all of these will turn into rentals. But assume they do. Look at the bigger picture.
    ....2011 saw almost 60,000 rental properties listed over the course of the year - a little over half of all rental properties in the capital - the last 12 months have seen just 35,000 listed.... In a labour market where mobility matters, we have ended up with a rental market where tenants are afraid to move.

    https://www.daft.ie/report/ronan-lyons-2015q1-rental
    An analysis of sales through Sherry FitzGerald offices in the period 2011-2015 shows an estimated loss of over 40,000 rental properties from the market. In essence, for every one new investor coming into the market, two are leaving.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/property/news/lettings-market-key-in-2016-373861.html


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    #216
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    beauf wrote: »
    Even if you ban AirBnB not all of these will turn into rentals. But assume they do. Look at the bigger picture.

    Thread isn't about the 'bigger picture', AirBnB is one of several specific areas that are putting pressure on the rental market.


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    #217
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    wotswattage wrote: »
    ...Surely the 1500-2000 air bnb properties (all types) have a huge effect on the current immediate rental market??

    I believe it's a huge issue for people looking to move/rent right now.

    If we ignore the bigger picture.

    Then, if the LL of the apartment a tenant is looking at decides, to stop using AirBNB (or is not allowed to) AND decides to both reduce the rent, and rent traditionally, registering the tenancy etc and all that entails. Then yes.


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    #218
    appfry
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭appfry


    AirBnB is going to kill itself soon anyway.
    In the last few weeks its unreal, the amount of times i have had instant books cancelled by the hosts along with an offer of over double the price if I want it.
    I have stopped using AirBnB altogether now. Used to love it, but its so hard now to book a place to stay using it. Either you try an instant book and get that treatment. Or you try the normal booking route and wait 24 hours to hear that they made a mistake with the price and it is actually double.
    Total waste of my time.


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    #219
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    appfry wrote: »
    AirBnB is going to kill itself soon anyway.
    In the last few weeks its unreal, the amount of times i have had instant books cancelled by the hosts along with an offer of over double the price if I want it.
    I have stopped using AirBnB altogether now. Used to love it, but its so hard now to book a place to stay using it. Either you try an instant book and get that treatment. Or you try the normal booking route and wait 24 hours to hear that they made a mistake with the price and it is actually double.
    Total waste of my time.

    Is that not against the terms of use by AirBnB? Can you not complain to them about it?


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    #220
    appfry
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭appfry


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    Is that not against the terms of use by AirBnB? Can you not complain to them about it?

    Ever tried complaining to AirBnB :)
    Not possible. It may have been a few years ago, but they are too big for their boots now. You cant even phone them, and when you trawl through their help section you will get nowhere. Its an even bigger waste of time trying to find a way to complain than trying to book and being told sorry, price is actually double.


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    #221
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Airbnb from a landlord's perspective is an A&P issue. Airbnb from a renter's perspective is something more suited to the travel forum


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    #222
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    Sorry for dragging up an old thread but from watching the property documentary on RTE this is clearly still an issue.
    Surely the solution is to limit the amount of time a property can be sublet on Airbnb for? Say max of 30 days in a calendar year?
    Its taking the piss if people are using Airbnb 365 days a year. Airbnb was never designed for that service.


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    #223
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Sorry for dragging up an old thread but from watching the property documentary on RTE this is clearly still an issue.
    Surely the solution is to limit the amount of time a property can be sublet on Airbnb for? Say max of 30 days in a calendar year?
    Its taking the piss if people are using Airbnb 365 days a year. Airbnb was never designed for that service.

    I'm not really sure how AirBnB was designed but surely if someone wants to run a little holiday apartment business it's not specifically prohibited? Now personally I think it should probably require some sort of planning, which I'm not convinced it does, but Dublin's accommodation crisis extends to temporary lettings too, which is arguably more damaging to the economy in the short term.

    I'm a director in an OMC with a couple of directors who can't stand AirBnB so I do see both sides from a residents perspective, but once they conform to the house rules it's not abig issue from my point of view I must admit.


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    #224
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    I'm not really sure how AirBnB was designed

    its original stated goal was to utilise otherwise unused rooms in peoples homes.

    Officially, I think that's the line they still stick to.


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    #225
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

    I'm a director in an OMC with a couple of directors who can't stand AirBnB so I do see both sides from a residents perspective, but once they conform to the house rules it's not abig issue from my point of view I must admit.

    Most house rules /OMC leases I've seen specifically prohibit short term letting though?


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    #226
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    athtrasna wrote: »
    Most house rules /OMC leases I've seen specifically prohibit short term letting though?

    Ours doesn't, but I do believe you're right that it's a bit of an oddity. Must point that out to potential buyers! :pac:


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    #227
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Graham wrote: »
    its original stated goal was to utilise otherwise unused rooms in peoples homes.

    Officially, I think that's the line they still stick to.

    I didn't know that I have to admit - bit of an oddity though in Ireland as RAR would have predated it and allows tax relief on the income.


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    #228
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    My (possibly naive) understanding of how the airbnb concept came about was similar to a house swap.
    An example would be: Say you go on holidays, you property is free. Say someone from Spain is going on holidays to Ireland at the same time. There is now a free property in the area you are going and vice versa. Therefore it is a win win situation to make your house available while you are away. There are many benefits to this such as security etc.
    Short let means a short period of time. In my opinion it was not designed for this and that is why many cities (Berlin, Manhattan) have now banned airbnb. If its that big a problem then why not just sit down with the company and develop a solution, its in everyone's interest.


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    #229
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    I didn't know that I have to admit - bit of an oddity though in Ireland as RAR would have predated it and allows tax relief on the income.

    RAR precludes short-term lettings. AirBnB originally appealed to homeowners as a way of making a few quid every now and then without having to share their home on a permanent basis.

    There's an article in todays times by Ciara Saddler (sp) that you might be interested in about how her OMC has essentially stopped AirBnB lettings without planning permission.


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    #230
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    I didn't know that I have to admit - bit of an oddity though in Ireland as RAR would have predated it and allows tax relief on the income.

    Well , its originally a US company so the rules in Ireland wouldn't have been on their minds in development.

    The real reason landlords like using AirBnB is firstly - profit, it generates more money. The only way to solve this is to make hotel rooms cheaper somehow.

    secondly - long term letting really holds the landlords balls in a vice here. We need to create a 60 day expedited forced eviction process for tenants who are in arrears and the council needs to start paying all landlords directly regardless of the issues going on with the tenant and also insure the property against theft and damage.


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    #231
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    I didn't know that I have to admit - bit of an oddity though in Ireland as RAR would have predated it and allows tax relief on the income.

    The difference AirBnB was it was meant for short term holiday letting. A cheap alternative to Hotels and B&Bs.

    The problems with AirBnB though are worldwide.


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    #232
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    The only way to solve this is to make hotel rooms cheaper somehow.

    Or enforce the existing planning laws.


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    #233
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,968 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Rent a Room or two or more tax free. Up to the threshold of course.

    As long as you are your are living there <mod snip>

    No brainer to let out rooms rather than an RTB nightmare. What do you think?


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    #234
    gizmo81
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭gizmo81


    The enforcement of this is a nightmare. In my previous apartment block two years ago a tenancy became available, it was quickly snapped up. Two women appeared initially, but it quickly became evident that the they weren't living in the apartment and it had been listed on Air BnB.

    When a neighbour found the advert, the two bedroom apartment had been split into three units for rent on Air BnB, they had put locks on the two bedrooms and a lock on the kitchen/living room in which they had added a mattress to the living room floor.

    The advert warned not to talk to the residents nor press the intercom etc.

    We discovered afterwards the landlord had allowed this.

    Some of us tenants reported to Fire Prevention and DCC Planning Enforcement, two years later nothing has happened a tenant still resident has informed me.

    I left the apartment as in the last three years before I left over 30% of the beds/apartments became illegal Air BnB sublets. Which brought a lot of anti-social behaviour.


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    #235
    Baby01032012
    Registered Users Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭Baby01032012


    I'm not sure you can classify all apartments let through airbnb as illegal. The DCC case was found to be illegal and related to only one apartment in temple bar. They were careful to state that it would be looked at on a case by case basis.
    Simon Coveny is planning to introduce legislation to govern airbnb type lettings. Given the impact they're having on housing in Dublin. You could well see legislation similar to the RTA rules that will make it less favourable to go the alternative route to long term residential lettings.


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    #236
    gizmo81
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭gizmo81


    Sorry i mean't the 30% in my apartment were illegal.
    Baby01032012 wrote: »
    I'm not sure you can classify all apartments let through airbnb as illegal. The DCC case was found to be illegal and related to only one apartment in temple bar. They were careful to state that it would be looked at on a case by case basis.
    Simon Coveny is planning to introduce legislation to govern airbnb type lettings. Given the impact they're having on housing in Dublin. You could well see legislation similar to the RTA rules that will make it less favourable to go the alternative route to long term residential lettings.


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    #237
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gizmo81 wrote: »
    Sorry i mean't the 30% in my apartment were illegal.

    How do you know they were illegal if your complaints were not acted upon, surely it indicates they aren't bothered? what fire safety issues did you report?


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    #238
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Odin Thousands Flapjack wrote: »
    How do you know they were illegal if your complaints were not acted upon

    Change of use planning applications are public record. The utter failure of local authorities to meaningfully enforce planning law does not magically make unauthorised change of use any less of a breach.


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    #239
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Graham wrote: »
    Change of use planning applications are public record. The utter failure of local authorities to meaningfully enforce planning law does not magically make unauthorised change of use any less of a breach.

    Its already been confirmed that airbnb is being ruled on on a case by case basis rather than a blanket decision that its against planning so I would question if what you say is correct.


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    #240
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Odin Thousands Flapjack wrote: »
    Its already been confirmed that airbnb is being ruled on on a case by case basis rather than a blanket decision that its against planning so I would question if what you say is correct.

    Any source for the ruling? I'd be interested in seeing the details.


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    #241
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Graham wrote: »
    Any source for the ruling? I'd be interested in seeing the details.

    The OP has the ruling in question I believe. I think it's being interpreted in a number of ways. To my mind what DCC can do is essentially say an area/property can't be used for AirBnB, I distinguish this from enforcing the requirement for a change of use, it's more like DCC saying it's limited use.

    My fumbling around with the legalities aside, it does very much seem to be case by case, even if it is, in fact, a matter of enforcement.


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