Cyclists and the law,is anyone else sick of them breaking it

ted1

psinno wrote: »

Not really any point. Just have a bicycle reg plate and then they can issue automated fines for breaking red lights and going down one way streets the wrong way.

Tell me, what upsets you the most about the above?
Because many countries alllow cyclists up and down one way streets, and many allow them to go through red lights, going straight on a t junction with a cycle path is a good example as the cars turning can't enter the cycle path. So the cyclist going straight won't interfere with cars turning.
It's also much safer than having a truck pull up along the cyclist at the light and fir the two of them to proceed together

mrcheez

psinno wrote: »

I'd prefer not to have cyclists cycling at me when I cross the road with the little green man flashing. I'd also like not having cars doing so but that I recall only once has it happened. Usually they have either cleared the junction by that point or are stationary (relatively or completely). I don't think it is an unusual preference that requires detailed explanation.

psinno wrote: »

Not really any point. Just have a bicycle reg plate and then they can issue automated fines for breaking red lights and going down one way streets the wrong way.

You seem to primarily have a problem with cyclists that shove their way through pedestrians, or into traffic?

I think we are all agreed that they are in the wrong, and you have no issue with cyclists going through red lights when there is no cross-traffic interference.

I can only assume you have the same contempt for people driving through red lights and pedestrians walking on bike-only lanes?

Chuchote

Bicycle registration plates, by the way - a few countries tried this, including the bureaucracy-loving Swiss, and all gave it up as useless.
It would require hiring a new tranche of civil servants to administer it, assigning gardaí to inspect bicycles in the way they now waste their time inspecting tax and insurance, sending out tenders for manufacture, etc; and it would be utterly pointless as well as expensive. Do you want to pay for all this?
The idea of training cyclists in use of the roads - idiotic, honestly. Most cyclists are also drivers, and have already passed a driving test.
I'll tell you what: most of the cyclists who go through red lights (from my own observation, not any survey with a scientific basis) are between around 17 and 25. Most of the drivers who go through lights, use their phone while driving, speed and other terribly dangerous practices are… well, they're all ages. What about we ban the 17–25-year-olds from cycling and everyone from driving?

Tombo2001

Chuchote wrote: »

Bicycle registration plates, by the way - a few countries tried this, including the bureaucracy-loving Swiss, and all gave it up as useless.
It would require hiring a new tranche of civil servants to administer it, assigning gardaí to inspect bicycles in the way they now waste their time inspecting tax and insurance, sending out tenders for manufacture, etc; and it would be utterly pointless as well as expensive. Do you want to pay for all this?
The idea of training cyclists in use of the roads - idiotic, honestly. Most cyclists are also drivers, and have already passed a driving test.
I'll tell you what: most of the cyclists who go through red lights (from my own observation, not any survey with a scientific basis) are between around 17 and 25. Most of the drivers who go through lights, use their phone while driving, speed and other terribly dangerous practices are… well, they're all ages. What about we ban the 17–25-year-olds from cycling and everyone from driving?

As a cyclist........I would dispute that there 'fact'.

Except in the sense that generally speaking, there are more 17-25 year olds on bikes than any other adult age category.

2RockMountain

stewygriffin wrote: »

I beeped at 2 grown men today breaking the red lights and allmost causing a bad crash on the Swords Road.
They caused a motorbiker to jam on his brakes and caused a car to skid out of control and almost wipe out the motorbiker.

I pointed to them at the very obvious red light that the rest of us were stopped at and abiding by.
One of the cyclists stopped and waved back at me and said sorry,the other gave me the one fingered salute and continued on as if nothing had happened.

Both cyclists were in good gear and on good looking bikes and wearing helmets too.

How is it that these cyclists think they dont have to abide by the law??

Also what would their attitude be to the motorbiker and car,if both had have ploughed into them and put them all in hospital??

It's a good job we don't have motorists and motorbikers who routinely ignore red lights too, otherwise we'd have scenes like this on the streets every day, at just about every change of lights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc5VGuJvOVk

Oh wait...

degsie wrote: »

I see cyclists breaking red lights EVERY SINGLE DAY! It annoys and disgusts me

Let's have a more interesting discussion - let's discuss why you DON'T seem to notice, or be annoyed or be disgusted by the motorists who routinely break red lights, as shown in the video above. Why would that be?

Max Headroom wrote: »

Not every car or biker runs red lights, but 99% of cyclists i've seen do....

Slightly exaggerated, but not a million miles from the truth - but it is a very selective view of what happens on our roads.

For a start, what percentage of motorists comply with the speed limits all the time, every day? Possibly something similar to Apple's tax payment percentage?

Muahahaha wrote: »

One thing Ive noticed recently in Dublin is cyclists now using the middle of the road to filter past traffic, i.e. the extreme right hand side of the road that motorbikes also tend to use to filter. Im pretty sure cyclists are supposed to keep left unless theyre turning right but Im not seeing any of them turning right. So an extra hazard has now been added to the motorbiker commuting through town as these cyclists just pop out from between two cars to get into the middle of the road to filter.

Im a cyclist myself so am loathe to condemn them all as a group because they dont all behave the same and many you see actually look a bit nervous cycling in city traffic and they give you a wide berth. But there is a minority of cyclists who are taking the piss in the risks that they are taking.

Eh no, cyclists are NOt supposed to keep left. The RSA advise cyclists to stay well out from the kerb, and remind us that cyclists are as entitled to their road space as any other user.

dfeo wrote: »

I'd love to see some posts on the Garda Twitter page about them pulling over cyclists.

Yep, they've had such posts from time to time, but I guess they focus their enforcement activity on the road users that cause the most harm.
It's not cyclists.

psinno wrote: »

I'd prefer not to have cyclists cycling at me when I cross the road with the little green man flashing. I'd also like not having cars doing so but that I recall only once has it happened. Usually they have either cleared the junction by that point or are stationary (relatively or completely). I don't think it is an unusual preference that requires detailed explanation.

'Only once'! Really? Have a quick look at the video above, and tell me that this stuff doesn't happen near you every day.

dunsie2013 wrote: »

3) Bike To Work Scheme :If you apply, you must do an on line course on good cycling practice, and pass to get the tax break.

4) Mandatory training for Dublin Bikes users. If you register you must do on line safety training, and refresh annually.

5) Mandatory wearing of high viz by motorbikes and cyclists, and possibly helmets

Would the online courses have any effect, given that most cyclists are drivers and have passed their driving test? We all see licensed, tested and insured drivers every day who frequently ignore traffic laws, so does testing really help?

And what's this fetish for hi-vis all about? If you can't see a cyclist or pedestrian in ordinary clothing, you really shouldn't be driving.

And what's this fetish for helmets all about? Far more people get head injuries in cars than on bikes, so if you really want to reduce head injuries, start with driving helmets first.

psinno wrote: »

Not really any point. Just have a bicycle reg plate and then they can issue automated fines for breaking red lights and going down one way streets the wrong way.

It might be better if they were to focus first on the 87% of red light jumpers who aren't cyclists - as picked up by the Luas cameras in Dublin:

http://kerrycyclingcampaign.org/but-all-drivers-break-the-lights/

Let's sort out the 87% of red light jumpers who are driving fast, heavy vehicles with registration plates that pose a serious threat to other road users as a priority, then we might worry about the 13% of light, flexible, slow bikes.

frozenfrozen

Deleted User wrote: »

Nearly all traffic lights are for traffic management. That's why we have them in cities and not in the country - where at junctions everybody, or nearly everybody, understands how to yield.

The vast majority of cyclists who break red lights are doing so because it is safe to do so and inconveniences nobody. Following a similar logic, I would be more than happy for "left on red" to be introduced for motorised traffic and for traffic lights in certain areas to be disabled at night and junctions revert to usual 'yield' rules. There would be work to do around road markings and education but it would make sense.

Cyclists who shoot through red lights without looking for traffic don't tend to last long. Cyclists who shoot through red lights into crossing pedestrian traffic are beneath contempt and appear to follow the all too common attitude amongst road users that is "I am bigger than you so get out of my way"

Don't really know why you're replying that to me or was it just the first part for me? In that case, yes I agree! I was saying I have no issue with cyclists breaking red lights that are there for traffic management / easing because bikes filter through. It's ridiculous watching even motorbikes stopping at some traffic lights in london, when they are there purely to keep an area clear, but a motorbike would be filtering through anyway.

Rakish Paddy

To answer the original question, YES! Sick to death of it!

Cyclist behaviour on the whole* in Dublin is abysmal, and it's not going to change until the following happen:

a) a major overhaul of the penalties - they need to be much harsher to act as a deterrent. I'd probably include a measure where any of the big offences (running red lights, cycling on footpaths, cycling the wrong way on a one-way street etc.) would mean your bike gets confiscated for a few weeks. I know that's not going to happen any time soon, but we can wish

b) widespread and consistent enforcement. People need to feel that there's a high likelihood of being caught.

* Of course there are plenty of good cyclists, and plenty of terrible drivers, but on the whole, there's a bigger problem with the overall standard of cycling.

jimgoose

Those who love cyclists and the law shouldn't watch either being made. :pac:

Macy0161

Max Headroom wrote: »

Not every car or biker runs red lights, but 99% of cyclists i've seen do....

How about motorbikes in bus lanes? 100% of them on my commute where there is a bus lane.

There's also been a massive increase in motorbikes filtering up mandatory cycle lanes in the last 18 months or so.

Chuchote

Or

c) Implementation of the National Transport Authority's cycleways plan for Dublin:





Even the UN's advice for 20% of transport spending to be on cycleways and walkways is ignored in Ireland http://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/unnecessary-deaths-caused-by-low-spend-on-cycling-infrastructure-1.2837200

Lumen

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

* Of course there are plenty of good cyclists, and plenty of terrible drivers, but on the whole, there's a bigger problem with the overall standard of cycling.

As measured by what metric? Deaths? Serious injuries? People being irritated?

Rakish Paddy

Lumen wrote: »

As measured by what metric? Deaths? Serious injuries? People being irritated?

The fact that more fatalities are caused by drivers than cyclists doesn't mean cyclists should get a free pass to ignore common sense and the rules of the road.

Gangland assassins probably kill more people than pickpockets, but I don't think that means we should permit pickpocketing!

Rakish Paddy

Chuchote wrote: »

Or

c) Implementation of the National Transport Authority's cycleways plan for Dublin:

I'm not convinced that will help. Take a look at behaviour on the Grand Canal cycle track - that's a bit of dedicated cycle infrastructure and behaviour on it is possibly even worse than on the regular road! Compliance with stop lights for cyclists when the pedestrian light is green is almost zero at some of the junctions in town.

Rakish Paddy

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

The fact that more fatalities are caused by drivers than cyclists doesn't mean cyclists should get a free pass to ignore common sense and the rules of the road.

Gangland assassins probably kill more people than pickpockets, but I don't think that means we should permit pickpocketing!

Yes but the fact that more fatalities are caused by drivers DOES mean that people should engage their brain before saying things like "there's a bigger problem with the overall standard of cycling"

frozenfrozen

Macy0161 wrote: »

How about motorbikes in bus lanes? 100% of them on my commute where there is a bus lane.

There's also been a massive increase in motorbikes filtering up mandatory cycle lanes in the last 18 months or so.

what's wrong with motorbikes in bus lanes or filtering in cycle lanes? Or are you just flinging shit because one motorcyclist made a thread saying something about cyclists?

Chuchote

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

I'm not convinced that will help. Take a look at behaviour on the Grand Canal cycle track - that's a bit of dedicated cycle infrastructure and behaviour on it is possibly even worse than on the regular road! Compliance with stop lights for cyclists when the pedestrian light is green is almost zero at some of the junctions in town.

The lights on that track need re-tuning. I've waited a loooong time for the lights to change for cyclists to go, and meanwhile cars are stopped on a red going the other way (in other words, crossing where I'd be cycling across. Really badly designed lights.

Rakish Paddy

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but the fact that more fatalities are caused by drivers DOES mean that people should engage their brain before saying things like "there's a bigger problem with the overall standard of cycling"

In several years in Dublin, I am firmly of the opinion that the standard of cycling is worse on the whole than the standard of driving. Yes, I've seen plenty of drivers break red lights, but for the most part that seems to be 'amber gamblers' who get through before pedestrians get the green light. It's very common in town to end up with cyclists arriving at a red light, with pedestrians crossing at a green man, and deciding to just plough on through. I have very, very rarely seen a car driver do that.

Fian

Muahahaha wrote: »

One thing Ive noticed recently in Dublin is cyclists now using the middle of the road to filter past traffic, i.e. the extreme right hand side of the road that motorbikes also tend to use to filter. Im pretty sure cyclists are supposed to keep left unless theyre turning right but Im not seeing any of them turning right. So an extra hazard has now been added to the motorbiker commuting through town as these cyclists just pop out from between two cars to get into the middle of the road to filter.

Im a cyclist myself so am loathe to condemn them all as a group because they dont all behave the same and many you see actually look a bit nervous cycling in city traffic and they give you a wide berth. But there is a minority of cyclists who are taking the piss in the risks that they are taking.

Are you serious?

Cyclists are also traffic. Sometimes it is safer to filter past on the right, especially if the traffic is squeezing to the left coming up to a left turn only lane or if there are parked cars which could potentially open a door in front of them. The outside filtering is not something reserved for motorbikes, cyclists have absolutely as much right to the road as you do.

Chuchote

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

In several years in Dublin, I am firmly of the opinion that the standard of cycling is worse on the whole than the standard of driving. Yes, I've seen plenty of drivers break red lights, but for the most part that seems to be 'amber gamblers' who get through before pedestrians get the green light. It's very common in town to end up with cyclists arriving at a red light, with pedestrians crossing at a green man, and deciding to just plough on through. I have very, very rarely seen a car driver do that.

I've had drivers drive through a pedestrian light in Rathmines as I crossed. They stopped for me rather than actually drive into me when I walked in front of their bonnets, but they were crossing against the light - beside the old Blind Shop.

frozenfrozen

Fian wrote: »

Are you serious?

Cyclists are also traffic. Sometimes it is safer to filter past on the right, especially if the traffic is squeezing to the left coming up to a left turn only lane or if there are parked cars which could potentially open a door in front of them. The outside filtering is not something reserved for motorbikes, cyclists have absolutely as much right to the road as you do.

I think the point which is very true is that so many cyclists don't do lifesavers and don't have mirrors so the just blindly pull out into the path of a motorcycle already using that position to filter

Chuchote

frozenfrozen wrote: »

I think the point which is very true is that so many cyclists don't do lifesavers and don't have mirrors so the just blindly pull out into the path of a motorcycle already using that position to filter

I tried a mirror for a while. I didn't find that it worked on a bike; it was impossible to see how close a car was in it. After five weeks it fell off.

uck51js9zml2yt

As a cyclist I'm sick of cyclists breaking the law, just as I'm sick of bikers and car drivers doing it.
Lost count the number of bikers and motorists who've nearly killed me as they broke red lights or swerved out in front of me.....rant over!

TallGlass

I'll hold my hands up. I would break red lights, only when I am sure it's safe to go, but I would stop at major junctions. In fact I would stop at the red light, wait and make sure I can go. I full on stop at major junctions even if it looks safe.

My main reason, is I don't want to wait at a light that could put me in an awkward line of sight for traffic turning etc..

But I have seen some seriously dangerous red light breaking at major junctions. Once this guy cycled out to the medium, then try to merge from the left of the road. Total WTF moment.

Another major issue is people performing turns etc.. without checking over there shoulder to see if it's safe.

Danjamin1

think I actually notice bad cyclist behaviour even more when I'm on the bike myself. I treat cycling the same as I treat driving and I think I'm a better driver as a result of also being a cyclist. If anything I probably break the law more in the car than I do on the bike (doing 60kph in a 50kph zone for instance). No issue with the vast majority of other road users but I follow the assumption that everyone else on the road is a moron & expect the worst. It bothers me when people start these threads that lump us all collectively under one group. One idiot on a bike/motorbike/in a car does not put all cyclists/motorcyclists/drivers in the same category.

Fian

frozenfrozen wrote: »

I think the point which is very true is that so many cyclists don't do lifesavers and don't have mirrors so the just blindly pull out into the path of a motorcycle already using that position to filter

Mirrors on a bike are not terribly useful. However almost all cyclists certainly do lifesavers. As you would expect since we are more vulnerable even than motorcyclists with less protective clothing generally (for weight reasons) and less effective helmets. Plus we don't have the advantage of a powerful engine to accelerate us out of trouble or to let other road users hear us coming.

Anyway yes cyclists do break lights. In almost all cases except for the suicidal fools, or for the obnoxious pricks who bully through a pedestrian crossing, this is when they are either turning left at a red or following the straight road through a T junction - in each case when they are not crossing other traffic and are hugging the left / in a cycle lane. You don't need fines to make sure this is the case, basic physics does the job. Cyclists ploughing through motorised traffic against the lights are not going to do so for very long, the undesirability of this behaviour will be brought home to them pretty forcefully when a two ton metal cage interrupts their passage.

Sometimes this is safer than stopping and then dealing with traffic pulling away from the junction. Though the reality is that is unlikely to be the motivation. The "cost" for a cyclist coming to a stop at a junction is higher than for a motorised vehicle - we accelerate more slowly and with lots more effort. The opportunity to filter through a red light is far higher, we are not prevented from doing so by cars stopped in front of us and we can filter through T-junctions or left turns without needing the traffic in the other lane to stop and make room for us. The risks of not stopping or of continuing when it is safe are much lower - less likely to be penalised, no points on our licence, far less risk of injuring someone, in many cases (examples above) it is much safer to do so.

So it is not surprising that proportionately more cyclists break reds than motors, it is perfectly rational that this happens.

I can't help suspect that alot of the rage motorists feel towards this behaviour is caused by frustration at being stuck in traffic. Motorists pay far more for their vehicles than do cyclists, not to mention fuel costs. Despite this they sit there in traffic jams and watch cyclist after cyclist breeze past them, filter straight past all the cars that are holding the motorists up and make far faster progress into Dublin city center than they do. This seems unjust and unfair. Probably why the "they don't even pay road tax" refrain is also brought up so often.

It takes me 15/20 minutes door to door from my house in Dundrum to work in the city center in rush hour traffic. It took far longer when I drove and I remember how frustrating the traffic was. Just remember that if all those cyclists gliding past you and "breaking red lights" etc. were in cars, the traffic jams you are putting up with would be far worse than they are.

Chuchote

I have occasionally broken red lights, but normally I try in all areas of life to make as much behaviour as possible unconscious - so I'd automatically slow and stop when approaching an orange or red light, I'd automatically signal before turning, I'd automatically look behind before changing lanes.

Was talking to a neighbour about this and he said he made the decision based on the circumstances. But I noticed that his decisions led to a lot more unsafe moves than my automatics!

Fian

frozenfrozen wrote: »

what's wrong with motorbikes in bus lanes or filtering in cycle lanes? Or are you just flinging shit because one motorcyclist made a thread saying something about cyclists?

Well both are illegal, though tbh unless motorbikes pass me too close I could care less about them being in bus lanes, they don't hold up buses either. Though if a single car used bus lanes they would not delay buses either, so you have to draw a line somewhere.

Motorbikes in cycle lanes also tend to eventually get stuck on the way up to the junction and block filtering cyclists - because motorbikes are much wider.

But I think his essential point was that a motorcyclist calling out cyclists for breaking red is a bit rich when motorcyclists habitually break rules too.

ThisRegard

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

To answer the original question, YES! Sick to death of it!

Cyclist behaviour on the whole* in Dublin is abysmal, and it's not going to change until the following happen:

a) a major overhaul of the penalties - they need to be much harsher to act as a deterrent. I'd probably include a measure where any of the big offences (running red lights, cycling on footpaths, cycling the wrong way on a one-way street etc.) would mean your bike gets confiscated for a few weeks. I know that's not going to happen any time soon, but we can wish

b) widespread and consistent enforcement. People need to feel that there's a high likelihood of being caught.

* Of course there are plenty of good cyclists, and plenty of terrible drivers, but on the whole, there's a bigger problem with the overall standard of cycling.

And of course you'll have no problem with buses, cars, trucks, motorbikes etc confiscated under this new law also?

Tombo2001

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

In several years in Dublin, I am firmly of the opinion that the standard of cycling is worse on the whole than the standard of driving. Yes, I've seen plenty of drivers break red lights, but for the most part that seems to be 'amber gamblers' who get through before pedestrians get the green light. It's very common in town to end up with cyclists arriving at a red light, with pedestrians crossing at a green man, and deciding to just plough on through. I have very, very rarely seen a car driver do that.

I love the selective examples.

Its very common to see cars belting through 30k zones at 40k/ 50k an hour. I have very, very rarely seen a cyclist do that.

Its very common to see drivers on the phone while driving. I have very, very rarely seen a cyclist do that.

Its very common to see drivers pull over on the hard shoulder of the motorway, for whatever reason. I have very, very rarely seen a cyclist do that.

Its very common to see a driver pull over into a bike lane, stick the hazards on and run into a shop. I have very, very rarely seen a cyclist do that.

I could go on.

Anyway, its good to hear that the problem with cyclists is much bigger than the problem with drivers.

.....In your opinion.

..........As a driver.

Chuchote

The trouble with all this anti-cyclist gurning and sneering is that it makes cycling unsafe for children. When drivers steering tons of metal feel it's ok to be aggressive to cyclists, a child is not safe cycling on the road.

It's time for the National Transport Authority's cycling plan for Dublin to be brought into action immediately, rather than at some distant point in time.

Lumen

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its very common to see cars belting through 30k zones at 40k/ 50k an hour. I have very, very rarely seen a cyclist do that.

I feel compelled to point out that there are no speed limits for bicycles.

Rakish Paddy

ThisRegard wrote: »

And of course you'll have no problem with buses, cars, trucks, motorbikes etc confiscated under this new law also?

None at all! In fact I'd be delighted to see it. I'd especially like to see it applied to anyone who uses any of those vehicles in a professional capacity as some of the worst behaviour I see on the roads is done in vehicles/on bikes with company branding. I really think something that radical is the only way to put a stop to the serious ass-hattery that is currently rife on our roads.

coolbeans

Lumen wrote: »

I feel compelled to point out that there are no speed limits for bicycles.

Hahaha, look at yer man on with his facts!

Rakish Paddy

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its very common to see drivers on the phone while driving. I have very, very rarely seen a cyclist do that.

Really? I see it every day in town! Yesterday I saw a lad on a bike going along a main road, phone in hand, one hand on the handlebars, right out in the middle of the road holding up a bus behind him. I didn't see him look ahead or around once. Totally oblivious to the road around him. And that's a pretty regular sight around Dublin.

Rakish Paddy

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its very common to see a driver pull over into a bike lane, stick the hazards on and run into a shop. I have very, very rarely seen a cyclist do that.

Yes, that happens (too often), and anyone who does it probably deserves to be taken out and shot, but it is, at least in my opinion, less obnoxious or dangerous than ploughing through a pedestrian crossing where pedestrians have the green light, or cycling up on the footpath.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I think the OP should start a thread on taxi/bus drivers or should it be the law for bikers to wear ATGATT.. Or hi-viz.

Or cyclists/bikers who are Go-Pro hero's. If anyone is a danger to themselves its these fooking lunatics who go out of their way, placing themselves in danger just to prove someone is in the wrong.

Fian

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

Yes, that happens (too often), and anyone who does it probably deserves to be taken out and shot, but it is, at least in my opinion, less obnoxious or dangerous than ploughing through a pedestrian crossing where pedestrians have the green light, or cycling up on the footpath.

Just out of a kind of morbid curiousity, if taking the bus lane parkers out and shooting them is sufficient for parking in a bus lane what is the appropriate penalty for the more serious offences you mention?

Fian

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

Yes, that happens (too often), and anyone who does it probably deserves to be taken out and shot, but it is, at least in my opinion, less obnoxious or dangerous than ploughing through a pedestrian crossing where pedestrians have the green light, or cycling up on the footpath.

Just out of a kind of morbid curiousity, if taking the bus lane parkers out and shooting them is sufficient for parking in a bus lane what is the appropriate penalty for the more serious offences you mention?

ted1

Lumen wrote: »

I feel compelled to point out that there are no speed limits for bicycles.

Is there really no limit? I would have thought that the limit applies to the road rather than specific vehicles

frozenfrozen

Fian wrote: »

Mirrors on a bike are not terribly useful. However almost all cyclists certainly do lifesavers. As you would expect since we are more vulnerable even than motorcyclists with less protective clothing generally (for weight reasons) and less effective helmets. Plus we don't have the advantage of a powerful engine to accelerate us out of trouble or to let other road users hear us coming.

Anyway yes cyclists do break lights. In almost all cases except for the suicidal fools, or for the obnoxious pricks who bully through a pedestrian crossing, this is when they are either turning left at a red or following the straight road through a T junction - in each case when they are not crossing other traffic and are hugging the left / in a cycle lane. You don't need fines to make sure this is the case, basic physics does the job. Cyclists ploughing through motorised traffic against the lights are not going to do so for very long, the undesirability of this behaviour will be brought home to them pretty forcefully when a two ton metal cage interrupts their passage.

Sometimes this is safer than stopping and then dealing with traffic pulling away from the junction. Though the reality is that is unlikely to be the motivation. The "cost" for a cyclist coming to a stop at a junction is higher than for a motorised vehicle - we accelerate more slowly and with lots more effort. The opportunity to filter through a red light is far higher, we are not prevented from doing so by cars stopped in front of us and we can filter through T-junctions or left turns without needing the traffic in the other lane to stop and make room for us. The risks of not stopping or of continuing when it is safe are much lower - less likely to be penalised, no points on our licence, far less risk of injuring someone, in many cases (examples above) it is much safer to do so.

So it is not surprising that proportionately more cyclists break reds than motors, it is perfectly rational that this happens.

I can't help suspect that alot of the rage motorists feel towards this behaviour is caused by frustration at being stuck in traffic. Motorists pay far more for their vehicles than do cyclists, not to mention fuel costs. Despite this they sit there in traffic jams and watch cyclist after cyclist breeze past them, filter straight past all the cars that are holding the motorists up and make far faster progress into Dublin city center than they do. This seems unjust and unfair. Probably why the "they don't even pay road tax" refrain is also brought up so often.

It takes me 15/20 minutes door to door from my house in Dundrum to work in the city center in rush hour traffic. It took far longer when I drove and I remember how frustrating the traffic was. Just remember that if all those cyclists gliding past you and "breaking red lights" etc. were in cars, the traffic jams you are putting up with would be far worse than they are.

Fian wrote: »

Well both are illegal, though tbh unless motorbikes pass me too close I could care less about them being in bus lanes, they don't hold up buses either. Though if a single car used bus lanes they would not delay buses either, so you have to draw a line somewhere.

Motorbikes in cycle lanes also tend to eventually get stuck on the way up to the junction and block filtering cyclists - because motorbikes are much wider.

But I think his essential point was that a motorcyclist calling out cyclists for breaking red is a bit rich when motorcyclists habitually break rules too.

Literally not going to read all that. Sorry but that is just a ridiculous amount of text

Lumen

ted1 wrote: »

Is there really no limit? I would have thought that the limit applies to the road rather than specific vehicles

Yes, I am very sure about this.

PeadarCo

ted1 wrote:

Is there really no limit? I would have thought that the limit applies to the road rather than specific vehicles

Speed limits only apply to motor vehicles. Cyclists could still be done for dangerous driving/cycling where obviously excessive speed would come into consideration in deciding if the cyclists behavior was dangerous.

Macy0161

frozenfrozen wrote: »

what's wrong with motorbikes in bus lanes or filtering in cycle lanes? Or are you just flinging shit because one motorcyclist made a thread saying something about cyclists?

Both are illegal. So yes, if one group of road users is going to call out cyclists as if we're a homogeneous group and the only ones to break the law/ rules of the road, I think it's fair enough to call out the hypocrisy of that stance.

I don't particularly have a problem with bus lanes, but (from the car) I've witnessed some near missus with motorbikes in mandatory cycle lanes. I think that practice is dangerous.

frozenfrozen

Macy0161 wrote: »

if one group of road users is going to call out cyclists as if we're a homogeneous group

one guys thread where 50/50 replies have been "well I'm a motorcyclist AND a cyclist" and the other ones have not exactly been anti bike... except the first post which was done out of frustration from seeing a near accident caused by a cyclist breaking a red light...


don't think it counts as motorcyclists calling out cyclists.

Lumen

frozenfrozen wrote:

...the first post which was done out of frustration from seeing a near accident caused by a cyclist breaking a red light

Yes, and that would be a completely reasonable starting point were it not for the conflation of safety and law-abiding (in fact the thread title mentions nothing of safety at all, only rule breaking).

There's this comical blindness that we all have whereby we subconsciously justify our own rule breaking (e.g. speeding, not displaying road tax, using bus lanes, using noisy and polluting aftermarket exhausts, riding adventure bikes despite clearly not being on any kind of adventure) but don't recognise that other people are doing exactly the same with a different set of justifications we may or may not agree with.

Obviously it would be fairly rare (though not unheard of) for anyone to deliberately cause an accident so it's a reasonable assumption that the cyclists involved thought that they were perfectly safe breaking the red.

That's why we have rules, they're heuristics to help people go about their lives without having to constantly assess risks. But we don't like them because we think we know better. And we usually do. Except when we don't, and then bad stuff happens.

People are irrational.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Hey look at all you arguing on the internet whilst some of us are busy out riding bikes & having the craic ~ 'tis a lovely autumnal day out there lads

cadete

Lumen wrote: »

riding adventure bikes despite clearly not being on any kind of adventure.

Sounds like riding round Dublin with all these homicidal Kamikaze cyclists around might classify as an adventure

frozenfrozen

Lumen wrote: »

Yes, and that would be a completely reasonable starting point were it not for the conflation of safety and law-abiding (in fact the thread title mentions nothing of safety at all, only rule breaking).

There's this comical blindness that we all have whereby we subconsciously justify our own rule breaking (e.g. speeding, not displaying road tax, using bus lanes, using noisy and polluting aftermarket exhausts, riding adventure bikes despite clearly not being on any kind of adventure) but don't recognise that other people are doing exactly the same with a different set of justifications we may or may not agree with.

Obviously it would be fairly rare (though not unheard of) for anyone to deliberately cause an accident so it's a reasonable assumption that the cyclists involved thought that they were perfectly safe breaking the red.

That's why we have rules, they're heuristics to help people go about their lives without having to constantly assess risks. But we don't like them because we think we know better. And we usually do. Except when we don't, and then bad stuff happens.

People are irrational.

speak for yourself, I display road tax. lol

prunudo

cadete wrote: »

Sounds like riding round Dublin with all these homicidal "KAMIKAZE" cyclists around might classify as an adventure

Jesus, remember that lad, forum hasn't been the same since he disappeared :pac:

mrcheez

frozenfrozen wrote: »

speak for yourself, I display road tax. lol

I don't think "made up" tax discs will fly with Gardai.