Cyclists and the law,is anyone else sick of them breaking it

Lumen

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

* Of course there are plenty of good cyclists, and plenty of terrible drivers, but on the whole, there's a bigger problem with the overall standard of cycling.

As measured by what metric? Deaths? Serious injuries? People being irritated?

Rakish Paddy

Lumen wrote: »

As measured by what metric? Deaths? Serious injuries? People being irritated?

The fact that more fatalities are caused by drivers than cyclists doesn't mean cyclists should get a free pass to ignore common sense and the rules of the road.

Gangland assassins probably kill more people than pickpockets, but I don't think that means we should permit pickpocketing!

Rakish Paddy

Chuchote wrote: »

Or

c) Implementation of the National Transport Authority's cycleways plan for Dublin:

I'm not convinced that will help. Take a look at behaviour on the Grand Canal cycle track - that's a bit of dedicated cycle infrastructure and behaviour on it is possibly even worse than on the regular road! Compliance with stop lights for cyclists when the pedestrian light is green is almost zero at some of the junctions in town.

Rakish Paddy

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

The fact that more fatalities are caused by drivers than cyclists doesn't mean cyclists should get a free pass to ignore common sense and the rules of the road.

Gangland assassins probably kill more people than pickpockets, but I don't think that means we should permit pickpocketing!

Yes but the fact that more fatalities are caused by drivers DOES mean that people should engage their brain before saying things like "there's a bigger problem with the overall standard of cycling"

frozenfrozen

Macy0161 wrote: »

How about motorbikes in bus lanes? 100% of them on my commute where there is a bus lane.

There's also been a massive increase in motorbikes filtering up mandatory cycle lanes in the last 18 months or so.

what's wrong with motorbikes in bus lanes or filtering in cycle lanes? Or are you just flinging shit because one motorcyclist made a thread saying something about cyclists?

Chuchote

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

I'm not convinced that will help. Take a look at behaviour on the Grand Canal cycle track - that's a bit of dedicated cycle infrastructure and behaviour on it is possibly even worse than on the regular road! Compliance with stop lights for cyclists when the pedestrian light is green is almost zero at some of the junctions in town.

The lights on that track need re-tuning. I've waited a loooong time for the lights to change for cyclists to go, and meanwhile cars are stopped on a red going the other way (in other words, crossing where I'd be cycling across. Really badly designed lights.

Rakish Paddy

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but the fact that more fatalities are caused by drivers DOES mean that people should engage their brain before saying things like "there's a bigger problem with the overall standard of cycling"

In several years in Dublin, I am firmly of the opinion that the standard of cycling is worse on the whole than the standard of driving. Yes, I've seen plenty of drivers break red lights, but for the most part that seems to be 'amber gamblers' who get through before pedestrians get the green light. It's very common in town to end up with cyclists arriving at a red light, with pedestrians crossing at a green man, and deciding to just plough on through. I have very, very rarely seen a car driver do that.

Fian

Muahahaha wrote: »

One thing Ive noticed recently in Dublin is cyclists now using the middle of the road to filter past traffic, i.e. the extreme right hand side of the road that motorbikes also tend to use to filter. Im pretty sure cyclists are supposed to keep left unless theyre turning right but Im not seeing any of them turning right. So an extra hazard has now been added to the motorbiker commuting through town as these cyclists just pop out from between two cars to get into the middle of the road to filter.

Im a cyclist myself so am loathe to condemn them all as a group because they dont all behave the same and many you see actually look a bit nervous cycling in city traffic and they give you a wide berth. But there is a minority of cyclists who are taking the piss in the risks that they are taking.

Are you serious?

Cyclists are also traffic. Sometimes it is safer to filter past on the right, especially if the traffic is squeezing to the left coming up to a left turn only lane or if there are parked cars which could potentially open a door in front of them. The outside filtering is not something reserved for motorbikes, cyclists have absolutely as much right to the road as you do.

Chuchote

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

In several years in Dublin, I am firmly of the opinion that the standard of cycling is worse on the whole than the standard of driving. Yes, I've seen plenty of drivers break red lights, but for the most part that seems to be 'amber gamblers' who get through before pedestrians get the green light. It's very common in town to end up with cyclists arriving at a red light, with pedestrians crossing at a green man, and deciding to just plough on through. I have very, very rarely seen a car driver do that.

I've had drivers drive through a pedestrian light in Rathmines as I crossed. They stopped for me rather than actually drive into me when I walked in front of their bonnets, but they were crossing against the light - beside the old Blind Shop.

frozenfrozen

Fian wrote: »

Are you serious?

Cyclists are also traffic. Sometimes it is safer to filter past on the right, especially if the traffic is squeezing to the left coming up to a left turn only lane or if there are parked cars which could potentially open a door in front of them. The outside filtering is not something reserved for motorbikes, cyclists have absolutely as much right to the road as you do.

I think the point which is very true is that so many cyclists don't do lifesavers and don't have mirrors so the just blindly pull out into the path of a motorcycle already using that position to filter

Chuchote

frozenfrozen wrote: »

I think the point which is very true is that so many cyclists don't do lifesavers and don't have mirrors so the just blindly pull out into the path of a motorcycle already using that position to filter

I tried a mirror for a while. I didn't find that it worked on a bike; it was impossible to see how close a car was in it. After five weeks it fell off.

uck51js9zml2yt

As a cyclist I'm sick of cyclists breaking the law, just as I'm sick of bikers and car drivers doing it.
Lost count the number of bikers and motorists who've nearly killed me as they broke red lights or swerved out in front of me.....rant over!

TallGlass

I'll hold my hands up. I would break red lights, only when I am sure it's safe to go, but I would stop at major junctions. In fact I would stop at the red light, wait and make sure I can go. I full on stop at major junctions even if it looks safe.

My main reason, is I don't want to wait at a light that could put me in an awkward line of sight for traffic turning etc..

But I have seen some seriously dangerous red light breaking at major junctions. Once this guy cycled out to the medium, then try to merge from the left of the road. Total WTF moment.

Another major issue is people performing turns etc.. without checking over there shoulder to see if it's safe.

Danjamin1

think I actually notice bad cyclist behaviour even more when I'm on the bike myself. I treat cycling the same as I treat driving and I think I'm a better driver as a result of also being a cyclist. If anything I probably break the law more in the car than I do on the bike (doing 60kph in a 50kph zone for instance). No issue with the vast majority of other road users but I follow the assumption that everyone else on the road is a moron & expect the worst. It bothers me when people start these threads that lump us all collectively under one group. One idiot on a bike/motorbike/in a car does not put all cyclists/motorcyclists/drivers in the same category.

Fian

frozenfrozen wrote: »

I think the point which is very true is that so many cyclists don't do lifesavers and don't have mirrors so the just blindly pull out into the path of a motorcycle already using that position to filter

Mirrors on a bike are not terribly useful. However almost all cyclists certainly do lifesavers. As you would expect since we are more vulnerable even than motorcyclists with less protective clothing generally (for weight reasons) and less effective helmets. Plus we don't have the advantage of a powerful engine to accelerate us out of trouble or to let other road users hear us coming.

Anyway yes cyclists do break lights. In almost all cases except for the suicidal fools, or for the obnoxious pricks who bully through a pedestrian crossing, this is when they are either turning left at a red or following the straight road through a T junction - in each case when they are not crossing other traffic and are hugging the left / in a cycle lane. You don't need fines to make sure this is the case, basic physics does the job. Cyclists ploughing through motorised traffic against the lights are not going to do so for very long, the undesirability of this behaviour will be brought home to them pretty forcefully when a two ton metal cage interrupts their passage.

Sometimes this is safer than stopping and then dealing with traffic pulling away from the junction. Though the reality is that is unlikely to be the motivation. The "cost" for a cyclist coming to a stop at a junction is higher than for a motorised vehicle - we accelerate more slowly and with lots more effort. The opportunity to filter through a red light is far higher, we are not prevented from doing so by cars stopped in front of us and we can filter through T-junctions or left turns without needing the traffic in the other lane to stop and make room for us. The risks of not stopping or of continuing when it is safe are much lower - less likely to be penalised, no points on our licence, far less risk of injuring someone, in many cases (examples above) it is much safer to do so.

So it is not surprising that proportionately more cyclists break reds than motors, it is perfectly rational that this happens.

I can't help suspect that alot of the rage motorists feel towards this behaviour is caused by frustration at being stuck in traffic. Motorists pay far more for their vehicles than do cyclists, not to mention fuel costs. Despite this they sit there in traffic jams and watch cyclist after cyclist breeze past them, filter straight past all the cars that are holding the motorists up and make far faster progress into Dublin city center than they do. This seems unjust and unfair. Probably why the "they don't even pay road tax" refrain is also brought up so often.

It takes me 15/20 minutes door to door from my house in Dundrum to work in the city center in rush hour traffic. It took far longer when I drove and I remember how frustrating the traffic was. Just remember that if all those cyclists gliding past you and "breaking red lights" etc. were in cars, the traffic jams you are putting up with would be far worse than they are.

Chuchote

I have occasionally broken red lights, but normally I try in all areas of life to make as much behaviour as possible unconscious - so I'd automatically slow and stop when approaching an orange or red light, I'd automatically signal before turning, I'd automatically look behind before changing lanes.

Was talking to a neighbour about this and he said he made the decision based on the circumstances. But I noticed that his decisions led to a lot more unsafe moves than my automatics!

Fian

frozenfrozen wrote: »

what's wrong with motorbikes in bus lanes or filtering in cycle lanes? Or are you just flinging shit because one motorcyclist made a thread saying something about cyclists?

Well both are illegal, though tbh unless motorbikes pass me too close I could care less about them being in bus lanes, they don't hold up buses either. Though if a single car used bus lanes they would not delay buses either, so you have to draw a line somewhere.

Motorbikes in cycle lanes also tend to eventually get stuck on the way up to the junction and block filtering cyclists - because motorbikes are much wider.

But I think his essential point was that a motorcyclist calling out cyclists for breaking red is a bit rich when motorcyclists habitually break rules too.

ThisRegard

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

To answer the original question, YES! Sick to death of it!

Cyclist behaviour on the whole* in Dublin is abysmal, and it's not going to change until the following happen:

a) a major overhaul of the penalties - they need to be much harsher to act as a deterrent. I'd probably include a measure where any of the big offences (running red lights, cycling on footpaths, cycling the wrong way on a one-way street etc.) would mean your bike gets confiscated for a few weeks. I know that's not going to happen any time soon, but we can wish

b) widespread and consistent enforcement. People need to feel that there's a high likelihood of being caught.

* Of course there are plenty of good cyclists, and plenty of terrible drivers, but on the whole, there's a bigger problem with the overall standard of cycling.

And of course you'll have no problem with buses, cars, trucks, motorbikes etc confiscated under this new law also?

Tombo2001

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

In several years in Dublin, I am firmly of the opinion that the standard of cycling is worse on the whole than the standard of driving. Yes, I've seen plenty of drivers break red lights, but for the most part that seems to be 'amber gamblers' who get through before pedestrians get the green light. It's very common in town to end up with cyclists arriving at a red light, with pedestrians crossing at a green man, and deciding to just plough on through. I have very, very rarely seen a car driver do that.

I love the selective examples.

Its very common to see cars belting through 30k zones at 40k/ 50k an hour. I have very, very rarely seen a cyclist do that.

Its very common to see drivers on the phone while driving. I have very, very rarely seen a cyclist do that.

Its very common to see drivers pull over on the hard shoulder of the motorway, for whatever reason. I have very, very rarely seen a cyclist do that.

Its very common to see a driver pull over into a bike lane, stick the hazards on and run into a shop. I have very, very rarely seen a cyclist do that.

I could go on.

Anyway, its good to hear that the problem with cyclists is much bigger than the problem with drivers.

.....In your opinion.

..........As a driver.

Chuchote

The trouble with all this anti-cyclist gurning and sneering is that it makes cycling unsafe for children. When drivers steering tons of metal feel it's ok to be aggressive to cyclists, a child is not safe cycling on the road.

It's time for the National Transport Authority's cycling plan for Dublin to be brought into action immediately, rather than at some distant point in time.

Lumen

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its very common to see cars belting through 30k zones at 40k/ 50k an hour. I have very, very rarely seen a cyclist do that.

I feel compelled to point out that there are no speed limits for bicycles.

Rakish Paddy

ThisRegard wrote: »

And of course you'll have no problem with buses, cars, trucks, motorbikes etc confiscated under this new law also?

None at all! In fact I'd be delighted to see it. I'd especially like to see it applied to anyone who uses any of those vehicles in a professional capacity as some of the worst behaviour I see on the roads is done in vehicles/on bikes with company branding. I really think something that radical is the only way to put a stop to the serious ass-hattery that is currently rife on our roads.

coolbeans

Lumen wrote: »

I feel compelled to point out that there are no speed limits for bicycles.

Hahaha, look at yer man on with his facts!

Rakish Paddy

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its very common to see drivers on the phone while driving. I have very, very rarely seen a cyclist do that.

Really? I see it every day in town! Yesterday I saw a lad on a bike going along a main road, phone in hand, one hand on the handlebars, right out in the middle of the road holding up a bus behind him. I didn't see him look ahead or around once. Totally oblivious to the road around him. And that's a pretty regular sight around Dublin.

Rakish Paddy

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its very common to see a driver pull over into a bike lane, stick the hazards on and run into a shop. I have very, very rarely seen a cyclist do that.

Yes, that happens (too often), and anyone who does it probably deserves to be taken out and shot, but it is, at least in my opinion, less obnoxious or dangerous than ploughing through a pedestrian crossing where pedestrians have the green light, or cycling up on the footpath.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I think the OP should start a thread on taxi/bus drivers or should it be the law for bikers to wear ATGATT.. Or hi-viz.

Or cyclists/bikers who are Go-Pro hero's. If anyone is a danger to themselves its these fooking lunatics who go out of their way, placing themselves in danger just to prove someone is in the wrong.

Fian

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

Yes, that happens (too often), and anyone who does it probably deserves to be taken out and shot, but it is, at least in my opinion, less obnoxious or dangerous than ploughing through a pedestrian crossing where pedestrians have the green light, or cycling up on the footpath.

Just out of a kind of morbid curiousity, if taking the bus lane parkers out and shooting them is sufficient for parking in a bus lane what is the appropriate penalty for the more serious offences you mention?

Fian

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

Yes, that happens (too often), and anyone who does it probably deserves to be taken out and shot, but it is, at least in my opinion, less obnoxious or dangerous than ploughing through a pedestrian crossing where pedestrians have the green light, or cycling up on the footpath.

Just out of a kind of morbid curiousity, if taking the bus lane parkers out and shooting them is sufficient for parking in a bus lane what is the appropriate penalty for the more serious offences you mention?

ted1

Lumen wrote: »

I feel compelled to point out that there are no speed limits for bicycles.

Is there really no limit? I would have thought that the limit applies to the road rather than specific vehicles

frozenfrozen

Fian wrote: »

Mirrors on a bike are not terribly useful. However almost all cyclists certainly do lifesavers. As you would expect since we are more vulnerable even than motorcyclists with less protective clothing generally (for weight reasons) and less effective helmets. Plus we don't have the advantage of a powerful engine to accelerate us out of trouble or to let other road users hear us coming.

Anyway yes cyclists do break lights. In almost all cases except for the suicidal fools, or for the obnoxious pricks who bully through a pedestrian crossing, this is when they are either turning left at a red or following the straight road through a T junction - in each case when they are not crossing other traffic and are hugging the left / in a cycle lane. You don't need fines to make sure this is the case, basic physics does the job. Cyclists ploughing through motorised traffic against the lights are not going to do so for very long, the undesirability of this behaviour will be brought home to them pretty forcefully when a two ton metal cage interrupts their passage.

Sometimes this is safer than stopping and then dealing with traffic pulling away from the junction. Though the reality is that is unlikely to be the motivation. The "cost" for a cyclist coming to a stop at a junction is higher than for a motorised vehicle - we accelerate more slowly and with lots more effort. The opportunity to filter through a red light is far higher, we are not prevented from doing so by cars stopped in front of us and we can filter through T-junctions or left turns without needing the traffic in the other lane to stop and make room for us. The risks of not stopping or of continuing when it is safe are much lower - less likely to be penalised, no points on our licence, far less risk of injuring someone, in many cases (examples above) it is much safer to do so.

So it is not surprising that proportionately more cyclists break reds than motors, it is perfectly rational that this happens.

I can't help suspect that alot of the rage motorists feel towards this behaviour is caused by frustration at being stuck in traffic. Motorists pay far more for their vehicles than do cyclists, not to mention fuel costs. Despite this they sit there in traffic jams and watch cyclist after cyclist breeze past them, filter straight past all the cars that are holding the motorists up and make far faster progress into Dublin city center than they do. This seems unjust and unfair. Probably why the "they don't even pay road tax" refrain is also brought up so often.

It takes me 15/20 minutes door to door from my house in Dundrum to work in the city center in rush hour traffic. It took far longer when I drove and I remember how frustrating the traffic was. Just remember that if all those cyclists gliding past you and "breaking red lights" etc. were in cars, the traffic jams you are putting up with would be far worse than they are.

Fian wrote: »

Well both are illegal, though tbh unless motorbikes pass me too close I could care less about them being in bus lanes, they don't hold up buses either. Though if a single car used bus lanes they would not delay buses either, so you have to draw a line somewhere.

Motorbikes in cycle lanes also tend to eventually get stuck on the way up to the junction and block filtering cyclists - because motorbikes are much wider.

But I think his essential point was that a motorcyclist calling out cyclists for breaking red is a bit rich when motorcyclists habitually break rules too.

Literally not going to read all that. Sorry but that is just a ridiculous amount of text