Landlord selling house, what's my rights?

davo2001

Was thinking of drafting a letter to the LL saying something like:

"As we are covered by part 4 tenency agreement and have been at the property for more than 6 years but less than 7 we are entitled to 24 weeks notice of the landlords intention to sell. We will take yesterdays letter as due notice and the 24 weeks starts from this date (19/10/2016)"

Does this sound OK?

Ms Doubtfire1

davo2001 wrote: »

Was thinkning of drafting a letter to the LL saying something like:

"As we are covered by part 4 tenency agreement and have been at the property for more than 6 years but less than 7 we are entitled to 24 weeks notice of the landlords intention to sell. We will take yesterdays letter as due notice and the 24 weeks starts from this date (19/10/2016)"

Does this sound OK?

only if LL has included the statutory notice that MUST got with a termination- exampled on RTB and threshold.Otherwise notice is illegal

davo2001

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

only if LL has included the statutory notice that MUST got with a termination- exampled on RTB and threshold.Otherwise notice is illegal

The only thing we got was a 1 line letter from the letting agency saying that the LL intends to sell in January and we will be advised of viewing arrangements, thats it.

Graham

davo2001 wrote: »

Was thinkning of drafting a letter to the LL saying something like:

"As we are covered by part 4 tenency agreement and have been at the property for more than 6 years but less than 7 we are entitled to 24 weeks notice of the landlords intention to sell. We will take yesterdays letter as due notice and the 24 weeks starts from this date (19/10/2016)"

Does this sound OK?

I wouldn't say anything about taking yesterdays letter as notice. Leave the landlord to start again and do it properly.

I'm of two minds whether to suggest you also add something to remind the landlord that should a sale not happen then you are entitled to have your tenancy reinstated under the current terms.

pc7

davo2001 wrote: »

The only thing we got was a 1 line letter from the letting agency saying that the LL intends to sell in January and we will be advised of viewing arrangements, thats it.

I think the letting agent is chancing their arm, I'm sure I've read on here that you don't need to facilitate viewings. I'll try find some info, now most tenants would but it should be on your terms, its your home

Ms Doubtfire1

davo2001 wrote: »

The only thing we got was a 1 line letter from the letting agency saying that the LL intends to sell in January and we will be advised of viewing arrangements, thats it.

thats not enough.I'll send the link whats needed in a few secs

Ms Doubtfire1

here:

http://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/sample-notices-of-termination

Ms Doubtfire1

this applies to your situation:

http://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/notice-of-terminations-landlord-pdf/landlord-intends-to-sell-the-dwelling.pdf?sfvrsn=2

dudara

You are not obliged to facilitate viewings IIRC, but as long as it doesn't inconvenience you, why wouldn't you? And if you do facilitate viewings, you may be able to negotiate some concessions from the landlord for your support.

Also, the landlord is obliged to give you the 24 weeks notice as mentioned above, but it may be possible for you both to negotiate a more mutually beneficial arrangement. One that suits you both.

However, given his recent effort to increase the rent, I suspect that he may be attempting to get you out in order to relet at a higher rate... Worth keeping an eye on.

pc7

yeah seems confirmed here you don't have to allow them and if you do its on your terms

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057552704/2

pc7

dudara wrote: »

However, given his recent effort to increase the rent, I suspect that he may be attempting to get you out in order to relet at a higher rate... Worth keeping an eye on.

That would be my suspicions too, i'd be highlighting in the letter that you may yourself be interested in purchasing same or if a sale falls through and its back on the market as per RTB youd be expecting first refusal.
We look after a property for a family member, they were coming home so we gave required notice based on this and substantial works that were needed. When member came home then they decided to head off again so we contacted tenant as was still within 6 months I think it was to see if they wanted it. They didn't and its subsequently rented to new tenants.

davo2001

Funny thing is that we wouldn't mind paying more rent if needs be, i just cannot stand these back handed tatics.

Thanks for the advice so far everyone, undoubtly I will have more questions, just need to take it all in.

Clearlier

davo2001 wrote: »

The only thing we got was a 1 line letter from the letting agency saying that the LL intends to sell in January and we will be advised of viewing arrangements, thats it.

Sometimes it's worth asking what seems like an obvious question. If the above is all of the information that you've been given are you sure that the landlord is looking to move you out? I know that it's relatively rare (and not generally the best way to go about getting the maximum price) but occasionally landlords do sell houses with a tenant already in it. They probably are looking to give you notice but it's worth making sure.

Fian

seamus wrote: »

The rules changed last year so that the clock didn't "reset" at the end of a 4-year cycle. Someone who's been in the property between 6-7 years is now entitled to 168 days (24 weeks) notice.

This seems odd, it incentives landlords to evict a tenant at the end of a four year cycle, which they can do without specifying a reason.

davo2001

Clearlier wrote: »

Sometimes it's worth asking what seems like an obvious question. If the above is all of the information that you've been given are you sure that the landlord is looking to move you out? I know that it's relatively rare (and not generally the best way to go about getting the maximum price) but occasionally landlords do sell houses with a tenant already in it. They probably are looking to give you notice but it's worth making sure.

I have my doubts that he is looking to get us out to raise the rent myself. He bought at the wrong time, end of 2006 when prices were at there highest, now that prices have increased my suspicion is that he just wants to get rid of the place and cut his losses (or break even).

davo2001

davo2001 wrote: »

Was thinking of drafting a letter to the LL saying something like:

"As we are covered by part 4 tenency agreement and have been at the property for more than 6 years but less than 7 we are entitled to 24 weeks notice of the landlords intention to sell. We will take yesterdays letter as due notice and the 24 weeks starts from this date (19/10/2016)"

Does this sound OK?

Just to point out the LL doesn't need to notify you of his intention to see, he needs to provide you with a termination notice for the reason of selling and give you the required notice.

He could sell the place tomorrow if he wanted but you wouldn't have to move out until your notice period expires.

cython

kceire wrote: »

I think the 24 weeks apply to you. It the letter may be considered notice and the 24 weeks starts now. Most sales take a couple of months to complete so it could time well with a sale and your notice.





It's worth noting that most decent LL's will not risk this with a long term good tenant for the sake of a few hundred a month extra that gets eaten by tax anyway. One months lost rent with a new tenant means that the extra your charging is lost for that year.

Maybe the OP can confirm if they are paying market rent, or in and around it.

Since the OP was served an illegal notice, it literally has no standing, and as Graham has alluded to, the clock will only start when correct and legal notice is served. The illegal notice as provided counts for nothing.

GGTrek

davo2001 wrote: »

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

do you have a fixed term lease and if yes what term?

We had signed a new lease in April 2015 but it was only for a year

You have been given a ton of wrong legal advice in this thread by people who clearly do not pay attention to details. The main detail the all did not consider: your current lease started in April 2015. It does not matter that you have been staying 7 years! Your landlord was generous with 2 months notice, since the correct notice for tenancy between 1 and 2 years is just 42 days.
Now I would also suggest you to read section 34 and section 62 of the RTB 2004 as amended in 2015. Your landlord will need to provide you a statutory declaration (which in layman's terms means signed on front of a solicitor) that he intends to sell within the next 3 months. There is a sentence of the High Court this year on the matter.
My strong non legal advice: start looking for alternative accommodation now, it is going to be very ugly if you go the legal way and if he sells he has a massive economic incentive to kick you out.

Graham

GGTrek wrote: »

The main detail the all did not consider: your current lease started in April 2015. It does not matter that you have been staying 7 years!

A lease of any length/flavour/colour cannot lessen or remove the rights a tenant has acquired under Part 4.

You appear to be confusing the length of a tenancy with the length of the lease.

FIXED TERM TENANCIES AND PART 4
The existence of a fixed term tenancy does not preclude the operation of Part 4. Part 4 runs with a fixed term tenancy, so that the continuous occupation by a tenant under a fixed term tenancy for a period of 6 months, means the tenant shall, as in the normal course, become entitled to the protections of a Part 4 tenancy. In cases of fixed term tenancies however, the rights under Part 4 only apply to the extent that they benefit the tenant over and above the rights afforded to him or her under the terms of the fixed term tenancy.

foggy_lad

pc7 wrote: »

Yeah looks like you are covered by the changes last year that other poster linked. I'd notify your landlord by phone and writing so you have a record for yourself. Hope you find somewhere new that's suitable.

davo2001 Do not take this advice, you are under no obligation to correct the landlords mistake.

davo2001 wrote: »

Was thinking of drafting a letter to the LL saying something like:

"As we are covered by part 4 tenency agreement and have been at the property for more than 6 years but less than 7 we are entitled to 24 weeks notice of the landlords intention to sell. We will take yesterdays letter as due notice and the 24 weeks starts from this date (19/10/2016)"

Does this sound OK?

Don't do this!

The landlord has not given proper notice yet and if they do it may be a wrong or incorrect notice period making the notice invalid. You can stay longer by not making him aware of his mistakes or not telling him the correct notice period that he must give you.

davo2001 wrote: »

The only thing we got was a 1 line letter from the letting agency saying that the LL intends to sell in January and we will be advised of viewing arrangements, thats it.

You can refuse all viewings if you wish and can make inspections by the landlord and estate agents very awkward if you wish. it is your home and they can't just walk in the door without your permission and agreement on the time and duration of any visits or viewings

runawaybishop

GGTrek wrote: »

You have been given a ton of wrong legal advice in this thread by people who clearly do not pay attention to details. The main detail the all did not consider: your current lease started in April 2015. It does not matter that you have been staying 7 years

Part 4 rights supercede any lease.

davo10

Crikey, long thread with so many different, and in some cases, wrong opinions.

Here's a few things to consider:

If you have a fixed term lease up to April next year, then even if the LL wants to sell, he/she cannot evict you until the fixed term is up.

If the LL and there agent know this, then giving you notice now satisfies the notice period (24 weeks) to the end of your fixed term.

Selling a property is a bone fide reason to end a part 4 tenancy.

If you are there 7 years then you are coming to the end of another 4 year cycle, if you had part 4 rights then the LL could evict you, without reason, giving the necessary notice (224 days) anytime within the six month period following the eighth anniversary of the commencement of your tenancy.


It would seem that the timing of the notice coincides with the correct notice period required to evict you at the end of your fixed term in April, but the house is going on the market in January presumably so there is no time lag between the end of your tenancy and the completion of the sale. The only thing that seems to be amiss here is the wording of the notice as you describe it, if it says that your tenancy ends when your current fixed term ends in April (six months) then all is right.

Edit: sorry, I just re-read op's posts, fixed term one year was signed in April 15, not 16 so op is part 4, not fixed term. Apologies.

davo10

Quite right, fixed term only specifies the term during which LL cannot evict you under part 4 rights and the time during which the tenant commits to pay the rent beyond part 4 requirements.

Ms Doubtfire1

correct. Part 4 rights are the BASIC rights, additionally security is gained with a fixed term lease. So, for you:
168 days notice
Notice must be in writing and Include the statutory declaration
Current notification is invalid & illegal
You do NOT have to allow viewings
You Do NOT have to correct the Landlord - you do however have to advise him of the fact that the notice of termination is invalid/illegal and therefore not accepted.

Mrs OBumble

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

wow-didn't know that? have you a link to the appropriate legal announcement?

I don't believe that it was a change that happened last year.

afaik it was the case before then too: After each 4 year period there's a six month window when the landlord can end a tenancy for any reason, not just the small list of reasons. But even then, they have to apply the notice periods, which are not based on a four year cycle.

davo2001

OP here, so basically our 168 day notice period does not begin until the EA or LL provide notice in writing and include the statutory declaration? and technially what he has provided so far is not proper notice?

Graham

davo2001 wrote: »

OP here, so basically our 168 day notice period does not begin until the EA or LL provide notice in writing and include the statutory declaration? and technially what he has provided so far is not proper notice?

Correct

Ms Doubtfire1

davo2001 wrote: »

OP here, so basically our 168 day notice period does not begin until the EA or LL provide notice in writing and include the statutory declaration? and technially what he has provided so far is not proper notice?

correct.

GGTrek

davo2001 wrote: »

OP here, so basically our 168 day notice period does not begin until the EA or LL provide notice in writing and include the statutory declaration? and technially what he has provided so far is not proper notice?

Do not assume that you have 168 days notice just from the suggestions in this forum, a lot of the posters above have no clue about the RTA and they just shoot with their limited knowledge (in the first two pages of this thread they even missed the statutory declaration requirement!), if you want to go the legal way my suggestion is to go to a solicitor with experience in Tenancy law. If the Landlord gave you proper notice of termination on your previous lease and then you signed a 12 months fixed lease starting in April 2015, then the poster who says that Further Part 4 rights supercede the lease is dead wrong, you might not have Further Part 4 rights, only Part 4 rights so no 168 days but only 42, others did not even bother to look at the fact that you have a new Part 4 lease. You need to present to the solicitor: (a) your previous lease (b) the notices you received over the past 7 years from your landlord (c) your current lease. Only in this way you will receive proper legal advice (it may cost you 100-200 EUR but might be worth it). If needed PM me and I can give you the details of the solicitor that took the High Court case against the landlord that wanted to terminate due to sale. I believe the case was mentioned and discussed in this forum. The case at the High Court with respect to termination due to sale of property is Hennessy -v- PRTB. Also be very careful about what they say about notice being invalid, the section 64A of the RTA can invalidate non materially relevant errors in the notice and the people deciding if it is material or not are the RTB Tribunal or worst case the judges. As I said it is very complex and you cannot just rely on the sometimes well intentioned but plain wrong advice of some of the posters. These where the conclusions of the High Court Judge in the recent case: "45. Therefore, I will allow the appeal and answer the question therein raised as follows: A notice of termination served by a landlord who intends to sell the premises the subject matter of a Part 4 tenancy must contain a statement of the grounds contained in the s.34, namely, that the landlord intends to enter into a binding contract for sale within three months of the termination of the tenancy and to enter into a enforceable agreement for the transfer for full consideration of his or her interest in the premises. Variations may arise if the landlord intends to sell a premises comprising an area greater than that the subject matter of the Part 4 tenancy but that factual situation did not arise in this case. The notice does not require to be expressed in the precise form of the statutory provisions, but the information cited must sufficiently identify that the intention is to conclude a contract for sale within three months."

davo2001

We have never received any notices, only a renewal in 2015 asking if we are happy to stay for another 12 month period at €X per month.