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Firm refuses to print invites to gay wedding for second time

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    #212
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,798 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    dissed doc wrote: »
    But they don't sell the product being asked for!

    They sell wedding invitations; which is the product being asked for.

    Your attempts to split the product in to two definitions is ridiculous.
    dissed doc wrote: »
    Why go to a Christian printing shop? They are happy to serve all people within the equal status act, but they don't have a product for this couple, because they only sell Christian products!

    Its a PRINTERS. They sell printing services. They do not "only sell Christian products". Are generic business flyers Christian? Are civil wedding invites Christian?

    Its not Veritas, its a generic provincial town printers.
    dissed doc wrote: »
    Whining like a child who is demanding sweets while walking around a B&Q, is what this sounds like.

    B&Q sell sweets. May want a better example.


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    #213
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    L1011 wrote: »
    Did you ignore the post explaining to you how someone has to actually take a prosecution? Or are you just unaware of that bit of the legislation (as well as the rest, as your posts show)

    They didn't. Hence there won't be a hearing.

    Yes, quite aware, which is why I used the word 'hearing' which the word used in the Equality Tribunals 'Guide to Procedures.'


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    #214
    dissed doc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    L1011 wrote: »
    There is no such concept as a "heterosexual wedding" in Irish law - there are weddings. They refused service based on sexuality.

    Did the shop refuse to sell them ANY products? Well that is a different scenario.

    AS far as the info is available, the shop doesn't supply non-Christian-compliant printing products - at all. So, NO-ONE gets the products which are not supplied. There is no discrimination possible.

    A heterosexual couple would also fail to get a gay-themed wedding invitation printed. There is no sexuality discrimination - they are free to buy whatever services are being offered.


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    #215
    Rory28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭Rory28


    dissed doc wrote: »
    But they don't sell the product being asked for!

    Why go to a Christian printing shop? They are happy to serve all people within the equal status act, but they don't have a product for this couple, because they only sell Christian products!

    Whining like a child who is demanding sweets while walking around a B&Q, is what this sounds like.

    they are asking for wedding invitations. printers dont have religious beliefs. whats christian about business cards? or printing out a cv?

    if they print for Paddy and Mary then they can print for Paddy and Mark.


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    #216
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,798 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Yes, quite aware, which is why I used the word 'hearing' which the word used in the Equality Tribunals 'Guide to Procedures.'

    But you clearly weren't aware that a complaint needs to be made, when one wasn't as was made clear in the media coverage. Which I suspect you can find as easily as PDFs on state websites.


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    #217
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,065 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Yes, quite aware, which is why I used the word 'hearing' which the word used in the Equality Tribunals 'Guide to Procedures.'

    I dont know how you are aware since

    A You didnt know the Equality Authority no longer existed
    B You absurdly claimed the EA was highly interventionist
    C You thought the EA can prosecute.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #218
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,798 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    dissed doc wrote: »
    Did the shop refuse to sell them ANY products? Well that is a different scenario.

    Its also not relevant.
    dissed doc wrote: »
    AS far as the info is available, the shop doesn't supply non-Christian-compliant printing products - at all. So, NO-ONE gets the products which are not supplied. There is no discrimination possible.

    They sell wedding invites. "non-Christian-compliant" has no bearing here.
    dissed doc wrote: »
    A heterosexual couple would also fail to get a gay-themed wedding invitation printed. There is no sexuality discrimination - they are free to buy whatever services are being offered.

    Not legally relevant.


    Same circular, nonsense arguments we always get.


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    #219
    dissed doc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    Rory28 wrote: »
    they are asking for wedding invitations. printers dont have religious beliefs. whats christian about business cards? or printing out a cv?

    if they print for Paddy and Mary then they can print for Paddy and Mark.

    Printers can be blessed, like people get buildings blessed. You are free no matter what sexuality, religion, gender to buy the services the blessed printing service offers.

    YOu may also fail to get a wedding invitation for a satanic-themed wedding.

    Is "worshipping satan" something that should be given special status in the equal status act? Perhaps - but either way, the non-Christian product is not being supplied.

    This is like demanding that Black Sabbath play Christian Rock.


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    #220
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,065 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    dissed doc wrote: »

    A heterosexual couple would also fail to get a gay-themed wedding invitation printed.

    Once again

    This is also an illegal practice.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #221
    Rory28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭Rory28


    dissed doc wrote: »
    Printers can be blessed, like people get buildings blessed. You are free no matter what sexuality, religion, gender to buy the services the blessed printing service offers.

    YOu may also fail to get a wedding invitation for a satanic-themed wedding.

    Is "worshipping satan" something that should be given special status in the equal status act? Perhaps - but either way, the non-Christian product is not being supplied.

    This is like demanding that Black Sabbath play Christian Rock.

    hahahaha. Im done. a blessed printer?
    my sides are in orbit.


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    #222
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,798 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    dissed doc wrote: »
    Printers can be blessed, like people get buildings blessed. You are free no matter what sexuality, religion, gender to buy the services the blessed printing service offers.

    YOu may also fail to get a wedding invitation for a satanic-themed wedding.

    Is "worshipping satan" something that should be given special status in the equal status act? Perhaps - but either way, the non-Christian product is not being supplied.

    This is like demanding that Black Sabbath play Christian Rock.

    You really have the knack of making insane comparisons.


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    #223
    dissed doc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Once again

    This is also an illegal practice.

    Honestly, really. Many companies will refuse to supply services based on what they can legally perceive as being vulgar, nothing to do with sexuality or religion. The company would likely also refuse to print nudity on the cards, or other vulgar/offensive content. And believe it or not, someone people may find the theme that is being discussed as being vulgar or offensive.


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    #224
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Rory28 wrote: »
    what about 49.6?

    kinda trumps the rest of it.

    Indeed, but every time you see a doctor it isn't an emergency. In fact, I'd say the significant majority of contact with doctors is in a non-emergency context. Plus, even that doesn't undermine the principle that subjective conscientious objection features in medical ethics.


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    #225
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,065 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    dissed doc wrote: »
    Honestly, really.

    I have explained this numerous times in the thread. Maybe read the thread before jumping in and making the same arguments that have been addressed numerous times.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #226
    dissed doc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    Rory28 wrote: »
    hahahaha. Im done. a blessed printer?
    my sides are in orbit.

    Yes, a blessed printer. This is diversity. Are you suggesting that someone not be allowed or enabled to have a printer blessed?


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    #227
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,798 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    dissed doc wrote: »
    Honestly, really. Many companies will refuse to supply services based on what they can legally perceive as being vulgar, nothing to do with sexuality or religion. The company would likely also refuse to print nudity on the cards, or other vulgar/offensive content. And believe it or not, someone people may find the theme that is being discussed as being vulgar or offensive.

    You can refuse service in any way you want, once it doesn't breach discrimination legislation. And this breaches discrimination legislation - no matter what hair splitting and redefinition you do.

    There are people who find miscegenation vulgar or offensive and indeed there were countless arguments made about it being against Christian beliefs in the 1950s. Would you support a printer who refused to print invites for a racially mixed marriage?


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    #228
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    L1011 wrote: »
    But you clearly weren't aware that a complaint needs to be made, when one wasn't as was made clear in the media coverage. Which I suspect you can find as easily as PDFs on state websites.

    Yes I was unaware which is why I went and had a look and saw their guide to procedures and was more careful in my choice of words.


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    #229
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,798 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Yes I was unaware which is why I went and had a look and saw their guide to procedures and was more careful in my choice of words.

    So, you're no longer going to make snarky references to proceedings that were never initiated as an attempt to try belittle someone? Because that is the only way what you posted can be read as.


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    #230
    Rory28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭Rory28


    dissed doc wrote: »
    Yes, a blessed printer. This is diversity. Are you suggesting that someone not be allowed or enabled to have a printer blessed?

    im saying its possibly the dumbest thing i have ever heard. bless your printer all you want but it wont make the printer find jesus. its a printer for fecks sake.


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    #231
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,065 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Thread going round in circles with the same arguments being answered numerous times.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #232
    GreenFolder2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭GreenFolder2


    I have long since given up trying to discuss things with dogmatic religious types.
    There really isn't any point. They believe their religion's rules always trump civil law and you might as well be trying to have a debate with a recorded announcement on the phone.

    This will go into a legal process, they will quite likely lose the case, yet they will still go on and on and on and on and on and on trying to claim that they're exempt from equality legislation on the grounds of a firmly held belief that being gay is wrong.

    In a lot of ways they'd be better off to just let it go quietly to the tribunals and courts and not continuously give this kind of discrimination the oxygen of publicity.


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    #233
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    GreenFolder2 wrote: »
    exempt from equality legislation on the grounds of a firmly held belief that being gay is wrong.

    Just like 'being' a traveller is wrong, or 'being' black is wrong, how can being anything be wrong?


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    #234
    GreenFolder2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭GreenFolder2


    Flippyfloppy wrote: »
    Just like 'being' a traveller is wrong, or 'being' black is wrong, how can being anything be wrong?

    I don't know, maybe you should ask a christian fundamentalist about their attitudes to gay people?

    I'm not religious and don't pretend to have any insight in to the minds of such people.

    You can't just 'disapprove of homosexuality' without just disapproving of gay people.

    I just get fed up reading and listening to the logical contortions that some of the religious right go through trying to pretend that they can be very anti-gay yet at the same time somehow believe they're not homophobic.

    Mind boggling!! I think we had more than enough of it ahead of the marriage referendum and hear enough of it from the United States to make your hypocrisy gland hurt!


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    #235
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    L1011 wrote: »
    So, you're no longer going to make snarky references to proceedings that were never initiated as an attempt to try belittle someone? Because that is the only way what you posted can be read as.

    I'm not sure where you get 'snarky' from, but if you choose to read that way, don't assume everyone else does.

    I thought Peter Tatchell made some interesting points in his interview this evening on Matt Cooper - they were talking about Asher's but the points are, in my opinion, are valid to this incident.


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    #236
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,065 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    mod note

    I reopened the thread. I won't be taking part in the thread anymore in order to step back and moderate it where necessary. I would ask everyone to acquaint themselves with the forum charter. Particularly points 10 and 14 and the bit where moderation won't be discussed on thread.

    Any issues - report posts or pm me.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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