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British Cycling and Sky

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    #92
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    TheBlaaMan wrote: »
    Like others, I don't watch soccer anymore, as it's rife with cheating on a level where institutional acceptance means a blind eye is turned to behaviours that wouldn't be tolerated in many other sports. That's what obscene levels of money has caused.

    How about this for a complete joke:

    https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2017/0216/853210-city-hit-with-fine-for-anti-doping-rules-breach/

    "City were charged after failing to comply with this requirement three times in the space of 12 months"

    While I know WADA don't deal with club infringements, a 35k fine isn't even a slap on the wrist in the context of the money in the sport and the message from the FA is very much a case of trivialising a serious problem that will be swept under the carpet, again.

    The joke there is that it's the clubs responsibility to ensure the players locations are known when it should really be the players.


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    #93
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,418 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    What has soccer got to do with with controversy in British Cycling?
    BC and MC are based at the same campus, one either side of Alan Turing Way - maybe they are in cahoots....

    Just to add, I am not implicating BMC in any way here


    :pac:


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    #94
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    RobFowl wrote: »
    It the usual deflection when confronted with cheating in our sport.
    What others do has not bearing at all on what the rules are and what we should be doing.
    Talking about soccer, rugby etc is simply a way of trying to excuse or minimise the truth and extent of doping and cheating as well as unethical behaviour in our sport.

    In fairness it wasn't brought up by the poster as a means of deflection, it was brought up as a means to use it as some sort of more moral sport to aspire to.


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    #95
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    It's getting into the level of hilarious farce now. First to re-cap a little.
    British Cyling has no record of ordering Fluimicil. Large quantities of Triamcinolone were ordered but no records of who received it.
    The Medicines & Healthcare products Regulatory Agency say bot products are prescription-only & the doctor supplying it would need to record, source, date he obtained it & the quantity.

    So that there is no record of them ordering Fluimicil is damning in itself. Now where the doctor successfully puts the story to bed of why all the large quantities of trimcinolone, the corticosteroid injected into Wiggins before Grand Tours:

    "The doctor at the centre of the Sir Bradley Wiggins controversy attempted to explain large orders of triamcinolone drugs by telling investigators that he had treated not just riders but also staff at Team Sky and British Cycling.

    Dr Richard Freeman said that he used stocks of the corticosteroid, which remain unaccounted for in paperwork seen by anti-doping officials, to help cyclists and other workers around the velodrome in Manchester who had joint problems and other complaints."


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    #96
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 30,495 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Let's hope the British Medical Council are readying some difficult questions for Dr Freeman.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #97
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I suppose it is a way of comparing Sky and cycling to the standard set by other people, using other sports as the reference.

    If they have done nothing wrong, then they are at best, as RobFowl said, making a mockery of the spirit of the rules. We string them up, more so because they made such a big deal. There are other teams out there who are probably as bad, some that are worse, all that is lacking is their comparative success. And for many people, the fact that these other teams only pay lip service, and don't really act holier than though, in the way that Sky did.

    From my own personal view, I don't care about other sports. Soccer lost me a few years ago. i slowly drifted into highlights only, with the last full match I watched being with my nephew and it was so painful that I just never went back. This said I still enjoy watching LoI and local club games but it is hard for me to get out to them and even in them, there is still low level diving etc. that makes it annoying. Rugby I have to admit, I love watching, but it to me is no more than an adult version of WWF nowadays, just not as scripted. GAA still holds onto me, although the intercounty stuff is losing me due to my lack of belief in some of the bigger teams, the running half marathons in a half at athletic competition standard times, the diving and he hit me ref rubbish from soccer is creeping in. Unless they start bringing in post match reviews of such incidents (although they are small in number) it may end up losing me as well. The day they scrapped testing because it was amateur outside of the grounds, was a bad omen. Athletics I can tolerate at the lower levels because when someone is cheating, it is really obvious. You hear them on about a new training method but they do seem to get pinged for it eventually.
    Cycling companies/teams biggest issues is that they seemed to set themselves high standards that no other sport sets, and when they fail to live upto them, they get ripped apart over them. There are a thousand ways doping could have been neutralised at the high up levels years ago, they weren't, there is no move too and sadly their probably won't be for some time. I hate it and want it eradicated but I also except that alot of fans don't hate, in fact, they don't even care, neither do the teams, hell, even alot of the sponsors don't seem to care too much.


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    #98
    dermabrasion
    Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭dermabrasion


    I agree with Cram. In my earlier posts I mentioned that BC and SC were small beer cheating. In reading some of the subsequent posts, I am less adamant about that. So, on my commute in to work, I concluded that Sky may not be ever be found to have broken the rules, but they cheated.
    I still can't help feel that cycling is low hanging fruit to point at and shout 'cheat'. I think this is hypocrisy. Not to single out soccer, but it too is low hanging fruit if you want to pick it. Its just that no journalists really want to either. They know where there bread is buttered.
    I love cycling and want it to be clean. It never will be. New rules will come in, new tests will develop, and clever people will see a way around them. C'est la vie.
    Finally, I wonder if DB had not called on Froome to sit up in and wait for Wiggo in the 2012 TdF, would they have found themselves in the House of Commons?


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    #99
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    There isn't a week that goes by in which the media harp on about bad decisions, or play acting, diving, dangerous tackling in football. It's constant, but it just gets lost in the cycle but it's definitely talked about. Football fans themselves harp on a bout it too and lurch from acceptance to frothing anger depending on who it favours, much like cycling fans.


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    #100
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,655 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Weepsie wrote: »
    There isn't a week that goes by in which the media harp on about bad decisions, or play acting, diving, dangerous tackling in football. It's constant, but it just gets lost in the cycle but it's definitely talked about. Football fans themselves harp on a bout it too and lurch from acceptance to frothing anger depending on who it favours, much like cycling fans.

    The difference being that there is a certain acceptance of it being 'part of the game' and whilst it may be annoying it is only a problem if the other team get away with it.

    It is never talked about in the same way of doping in cycling in that basically the whole sport is nothing but a cheat fest


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    #101
    ford2600
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    These threads are always the same; it's easy to get all black & white when it is a large corporate entity like SKY, Man City, NY Giants whatever.

    Bar you live in a bubble, can you really expect anything else from pro sport? It's primarily entertainment to sell stuff; once the sums add up the show stays on the road. Did people really believe the SKY bullsh1t when they started out?

    The hard bit with this attitude is when it's closer to home; how are we then?
    * star GAA player circumvents discipline laws by using barristers etc to over turn a ban? (Cork/Kerry would so it to etc etc)
    * Within team sports with physical contact the black arts are applauded/encouraged within just don't get caught.(don't be the in house whistle blower on that)

    Or how did Irish cycling and people on here react when an A3 rider was caught doping and the whole sorry mess of delayed reports and tarnished business etc. Almost universal condemnation? Quite a bit of
    * as he's a grand fella
    * he's entitled to mount his defence etc etc.

    Things never end well for whistle blowers, ask Garda McCabe, Paul Kimmage, and when it's close to home someone we know it's much much harder to get up on that high horse


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    #102
    selwyn froggitt
    Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭selwyn froggitt


    ford2600 wrote: »
    These threads are always the same; it's easy to get all black & white when it is a large corporate entity like SKY, Man City, NY Giants whatever.

    Bar you live in a bubble, can you really expect anything else from pro sport? It's primarily entertainment to sell stuff; once the sums add up the show stays on the road. Did people really believe the SKY bullsh1t when they started out?

    The hard bit with this attitude is when it's closer to home; how are we then?
    * star GAA player circumvents discipline laws by using barristers etc to over turn a ban? (Cork/Kerry would so it to etc etc)
    * Within team sports with physical contact the black arts are applauded/encouraged within just don't get caught.(don't be the in house whistle blower on that)

    Or how did Irish cycling and people on here react when an A3 rider was caught doping and the whole sorry mess of delayed reports and tarnished business etc. Almost universal condemnation? Quite a bit of
    * as he's a grand fella
    * he's entitled to mount his defence etc etc.

    Things never end well for whistle blowers, ask Garda McCabe, Paul Kimmage, and when it's close to home someone we know it's much much harder to get up on that high horse

    100% Agree, great post


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    #103
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    ford2600 wrote: »
    Bar you live in a bubble, can you really expect anything else from pro sport? It's primarily entertainment to sell stuff; once the sums add up the show stays on the road. Did people really believe the SKY bullsh1t when they started out?
    Some did, some didn't. I honestly had no idea. My opinion has changed in the last few years obviously.
    The hard bit with this attitude is when it's closer to home; how are we then?
    * star GAA player circumvents discipline laws by using barristers etc to over turn a ban? (Cork/Kerry would so it to etc etc)
    Is a disgrace, the GAA have no backbone against the bigger counties when they appeal against a refs decision. Certain players should not have played certain games in the last few years, and I have even heard fans of the county disagreeing with the decision. This is an issue with management and is no different a culture than cycling.
    * Within team sports with physical contact the black arts are applauded/encouraged within just don't get caught.(don't be the in house whistle blower on that)
    I didn't think they were applauded but I don't watch much of that, not my cuppa tea.
    Or how did Irish cycling and people on here react when an A3 rider was caught doping and the whole sorry mess of delayed reports and tarnished business etc. Almost universal condemnation? Quite a bit of
    * as he's a grand fella
    * he's entitled to mount his defence etc etc.
    He was entitled to his defence, I am a firm believer of that, everyone who is accused of something is entitled to their defence. Being entitled to your defence and using it are different things. The only disappointment with that trial was that he was not banned for life. It could only be a good thing if the likes of that person never darkened the door of amateur cycling in Ireland again.
    Things never end well for whistle blowers, ask Garda McCabe, Paul Kimmage, and when it's close to home someone we know it's much much harder to get up on that high horse
    It is very hard, and it is something that appalls me, the treatment of Maurice McCabe, is not just scandalous, it is criminal in the extreme. Every person found to be in collusion for this should be stripped of their uniform, their pension and have a long holiday in one of our prisons.


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    #104
    terrydel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    pelevin wrote: »
    This is obviously wandering well off point but am I right that Juventus were perhaps the most successful team of roughly the mid 90s, were caught having a definite doping 'culture', & for how big a story it should have been, the media actually did far from what might have been expected with the story.

    They lost titles over it, so it was dealt with.
    Soccer is in the ha'penny place to cycling when it comes to cheating, based on what we actually know as fact. It is basically institutionalised in cycling, soccer has its problems ues, and some are big, but it is not as inherrently corrupt in a sporting sense as cycling is. Just my opinion like.


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    #105
    terrydel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Absolutely, a couple of Spanish clubs have been implicated but the story never got the traction it would had it been a rugby club, cyclist (never mind a whole team) or an athlete.

    Rugby, are you joking? The media here ****ing lap that middle class ****e up, every player who can manage to put his shirt on the right way round is deemed a 'legend'. And in an international context, you almost never hear or see a ped story in the media.


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    #106
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    terrydel wrote: »
    They lost titles over it, so it was dealt with.
    Soccer is in the ha'penny place to cycling when it comes to cheating, based on what we actually know as fact. It is basically institutionalised in cycling, soccer has its problems ues, and some are big, but it is not as inherrently corrupt in a sporting sense as cycling is. Just my opinion like.
    Given the implications with actual names and teams being found in cahoots with drug dealers, the fact that nothing is made of it makes me believe it is either as bad or worse, the only defining fact being the fans don't care as much or they are better at greasing palms. I have hard a team doctor for a premiership team describing improving recovery times/treatments with infusions. He described blood doping, to a crowd of fans and media, no one even flinched.
    terrydel wrote: »
    Rugby, are you joking? The media here ****ing lap that middle class ****e up, every player who can manage to put his shirt on the right way round is deemed a 'legend'. And in an international context, you almost never hear or see a ped story in the media.
    Very true, a huge number of amateurs getting popped in the UK but never/rarely at international level, christ, I worked in Dublin 4 for years, you could point out the lads who were taking more than just multivitamins with ease (usually because lack of intelligence they clearly overworked their kidneys or at least that is how the other barman explained it. they could all have had horrific UTIs or severe collitus).


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    #107
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    terrydel wrote: »
    Rugby, are you joking? The media here ****ing lap that middle class ****e up, every player who can manage to put his shirt on the right way round is deemed a 'legend'. And in an international context, you almost never hear or see a ped story in the media.

    Grand chip on your shoulder there. You must not read a whole lot of media. Cycling has stories written when drug stories break, as too does rugby. Unless you're implying the media are all involved in a cover up and burying all these stories?


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    #108
    Doc07
    Registered Users Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭Doc07


    terrydel wrote: »
    They lost titles over it, so it was dealt with.
    Soccer is in the ha'penny place to cycling when it comes to cheating, based on what we actually know as fact. It is basically institutionalised in cycling, soccer has its problems ues, and some are big, but it is not as inherrently corrupt in a sporting sense as cycling is. Just my opinion like.

    Actually Juventus lost titles (2005-06 I think) for a referee/match fixing scandal. Their doctor was given a suspended prison sentence for doping (EPO) but the team never lost any titles from the era when the doping took place in the mid-late 90's.


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    #109
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Soo seems BC/Sky either ordered testosterone patches or else were sent them by accident (facepalm)


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    #110
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    Read that story in the Guardian about the Test patches. So, we're just to accept the word of another Team Sky/BC doctor that this was an administrative error? Laughable stuff all round.

    They're doing a decent job of covering their tracks as best as possible but someone will break sooner than later.... Freeman possibly or maybe Wiggins. Brailsford will obfuscate until the very end.


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    #111
    TheBlaaMan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭TheBlaaMan


    https://twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/838292912953769984


    https://twitter.com/CyclingNewz/status/837793725552201728

    When we are looking for a title for the after-hours thread, how about "Dave Brailsford knee" ;)


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    #112
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    TheBlaaMan wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/838292912953769984


    https://twitter.com/CyclingNewz/status/837793725552201728

    When we are looking for a title for the after-hours thread, how about "Dave Brailsford knee" ;)

    Keith Lamberts finger ???


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    #113
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,418 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    TheBlaaMan wrote: »
    When we are looking for a title for the after-hours thread, how about "Dave Brailsford knee" ;)
    I'm not going to take any flak for any thread title over there!

    That Kenacourt stuff does wonder for my ears. I'll try and pick some up next time I'm riding the track in Manchester:pac:


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    #114
    TheBlaaMan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭TheBlaaMan


    Beasty wrote: »
    I'm not going to take any flak for any thread title over there!

    Yeah, I got that wrong, I meant the ....off topic thread and things not worthy of a thread thread.....


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    #115
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,418 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    TheBlaaMan wrote: »
    Yeah, I got that wrong, I meant the ....off topic thread and things not worthy of a thread thread.....
    You mean the "Thread not worthy of a thread title thread"?

    Excellent - I'll make that the next thread title....


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    #116
    dastardly00
    Registered Users Posts: 13,425 ✭✭✭✭dastardly00


    :pac:

    https://twitter.com/PaulKimmage/status/837962258231803905


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    #117
    TheBlaaMan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭TheBlaaMan


    As so it continues, has Brailsford finally "lost the dressing room"

    Team Sky riders consider asking Brailsford to resign/


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    #118
    Eamonnator
    Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Eamonnator


    Lots of support from Team Sky riders

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-sky-riders-voice-support-for-brailsford/

    So, his days must be numbered.

    I note that Owain Doull is 110% behind Brailsford, while Viviani is only 100% behind him.


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    #119
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,418 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Eamonnator wrote: »
    Lots of support from Team Sky riders

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-sky-riders-voice-support-for-brailsford/

    So, his days must be numbered.
    Even if they are I'm sure he will pick up a lucrative contract in the Middle or Far East if he wants it.


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    #120
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,596 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Eamonnator wrote: »
    I note that Owain Doull is 110% behind Brailsford, while Viviani is only 100% behind him.
    you would think in relation to allegations about doping, people would avoid using phrases like 'giving 110%'.


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    #121
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV0jZY_OvNw
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    you would think in relation to allegations about doping, people would avoid using phrases like 'giving 110%'.


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