Pine Marten

Eddie B

Chiparus wrote: »

My post was in response to a now deleted post -

But this is what the article states:
The killer who kills for fun.
It's sometimes hard to tell what's responsible when a predator strikes, but most do leave tell-tale signs. A fox, for example, will generally leave a pile of feathers but no body. The chicken becomes dinner for adults and cubs alike.

A marten, and any other member of the stoat family including weasels, mink and the raccoon, tends not to kill for food but for fun. More often than not you'll find the carcass of the chicken still in the run.

It's one of the things that makes these kills so hard to take - having any chicken killed is not easy to deal with, but at least when they're taken by a fox you can rationalise that it's part of the food chain.

With a marten that's not possible because usually, it isn't.

Well I've seen examples, and im sure others have too, of where a fox killed a pen of birds, and maybe brought none, or one or two with him, other times, brought the lot. Also, much easier for a fox to carry birds to a den/stash. How long would it take a Pine Marten to do the same, especially if he got through the roof.

That article is a little biased towards mustilids, and I've seen other articles depicting Pine Marten in Ireland being mainly vegetarian.:rolleyes:

There is a lot of crap wrote in the media, online etc. Just be careful not to believe everything you read.

Chiparus

Eddie B wrote: »

Well I've seen examples, and im sure others have too, of where a fox killed a pen of birds, and maybe brought none, or one or two with him, other times, brought the lot. Also, much easier for a fox to carry birds to a den/stash. How long would it take a Pine Marten to do the same, especially if he got through the roof.

That article is a little biased towards mustilids, and I've seen other articles depicting Pine Marten in Ireland being mainly vegetarian.:rolleyes:

There is a lot of crap wrote in the media, online etc. Just be careful not to believe everything you read.

Very true.

We lost a lout of poults on our shoot, big debate as to the culprit - mink or pine martin,
Is there any way to tell?

Eddie B

Chiparus wrote: »

Very true.

We lost a lout of poults on our shoot, big debate as to the culprit - mink or pine martin,
Is there any way to tell?

Not really, unless there are tracks left. A few months back a guy on a UK Forum stuck up a picture of some tracks in the mud outside his pen. There was lots of different tracks. Anyway he asked "what the tracks were from?"

Turns out, there was tracks from dog, cat, and fox on that photo. He never saw anything at the pen at any time, and was surprised to find it so busy there. Just goes to show.

Only other thing I can say is mink like to travel banks of streams, and even little drains, so if there is one close by, it might lean a little towards mink. Saying that, a Pine Marten will travel a stream/river bank just the same.

SILVAMAN

Chiparus wrote: »

Very true.

We lost a lout of poults on our shoot, big debate as to the culprit - mink or pine martin,
Is there any way to tell?

Pine martin is a goddamned bastard for killing poultry. If he gets in he will bite and slaughter everything in sight.
Having said that, if you seal all entry points to the bird shed, there should be no problem Not too much of a price for peace of mind.

blackpearl

He would probley tip his hat to a family of wild pheasants and wish them good morning.

Brian?

blackpearl wrote: »

Did he not tell them to try and catch it and give it a pet,then they would see how beautuful it is,clowns like him should be put in jail ,because what he done should be classed as a crime against wildlife.

Why a crime against wild life? Just curious.

I think it's wonderful to see a native species that was close to extinction flourish. It's not the same as an invasive species wreaking havoc.

Shouldn't hunters appreciate how good a predator the Pine Marten is. They are phenomenal creatures.

Cass

Brian? wrote: »

Shouldn't hunters appreciate how good a predator the Pine Marten is. .

Without trying to be pedantic it's not all hunters.

The predominant attitude, on the thread at least, is while they may cause some damage they are not classed as threat to be eliminated.

Brian?

Cass wrote: »

Without trying to be pedantic it's not all hunters.

The predominant attitude, on the thread at least, is while they may cause some damage they are not classed as threat to be eliminated.

Absolutely, I can see most posters here have no problem with them. I was just surprised anyone would.

I don't currently hunt, I have in the past. I think hunting actually gave me a better appreciation for nature than most. I have no problem with people hunting plentiful game, it's generally delicious . But predators have been hunted to extinction or close to it in Ireland, I think it's great to see them flourish again.

I also love many of the weasel family, even the smallest weasel is a brilliant hunter.

blackpearl

Brian? wrote: »

Absolutely, I can see most posters here have no problem with them. I was just surprised anyone would.

I don't currently hunt, I have in the past. I think hunting actually gave me a better appreciation for nature than most. I have no problem with people hunting plentiful game, it's generally delicious . But predators have been hunted to extinction or close to it in Ireland, I think it's great to see them flourish again.

I also love many of the weasel family, even the smallest weasel is a brilliant hunter.

Lets put the wolves and the bears out when we are at it,are they not part of the native pool,and then we can all go down to the woods for a picnic.

Eddie B

Brian? wrote: »

Absolutely, I can see most posters here have no problem with them. I was just surprised anyone would.

I don't currently hunt, I have in the past. I think hunting actually gave me a better appreciation for nature than most. I have no problem with people hunting plentiful game, it's generally delicious . But predators have been hunted to extinction or close to it in Ireland, I think it's great to see them flourish again.

I also love many of the weasel family, even the smallest weasel is a brilliant hunter.

I think that loss of habitat had a big part to play with the decline in Pine Marten numbers. More so than hunting did. They are protected in this country a long time now, and only recently making a comeback due to reforestation.

Just look at the mink here, being trapped all over the country by gun clubs and fishing clubs etc. Thousands caught each year and no shortage of them at all. The government are actually trying to eradicate them, and cant even get close to it. Look at all the fox's killed during the fur trade. Half the country was after them, and they never even came close to extinction.

Brian?

blackpearl wrote: »

Lets put the wolves and the bears out when we are at it,are they not part of the native pool,and then we can all go down to the woods for a picnic.

No need to be facetious. Pine martens are no threat to people. Why do you them gone?

Brian?

Eddie B wrote: »

I think that loss of habitat had a big part to play with the decline in Pine Marten numbers. More so than hunting did. They are protected in this country a long time now, and only recently making a comeback due to reforestation.

Just look at the mink here, being trapped all over the country by gun clubs and fishing clubs etc. Thousands caught each year and no shortage of them at all. The government are actually trying to eradicate them, and cant even get close to it. Look at all the fox's killed during the fur trade. Half the country was after them, and they never even came close to extinction.

You're right of course. Destruction of habitat played a part. But hunting didn't help.

Can anyone explain why some people would like to see them gone?

Eddie B

Brian? wrote: »

You're right of course. Destruction of habitat played a part. But hunting didn't help.

Can anyone explain why some people would like to see them gone?

Well I suppose the farmer/ chicken keeper would be more than just a little peed off if a Pine Marten killed their hens/ducks. Picture a little kid going out one morning to feed the chickens and collect some eggs, only to be met with a bloody mess. That kid would be very distraught after such experience. Its a hard thing to witness even for an adult.

Same goes for people rearing game. They put in a lot of work, only for a predator to wipe it all out over night. These sort of incidents can leave a bad taste in the mouth, to say the least.

Of course the finger of blame, is pointed in the wrong direction. It's not the Pine Martens fault of course, when such incidents happen.

I said this before, and I'll say it again. There ain't much difference between a Mink and a Marten. One is an evasive species, and the other, a protected one. One is seen as the devil itself, and the other a beautiful native predator. I respect them both, but also know what their capable of.

Brian?

Eddie B wrote: »

Well I suppose the farmer/ chicken keeper would be more than just a little peed off if a Pine Marten killed their hens/ducks. Picture a little kid going out one morning to feed the chickens and collect some eggs, only to be met with a bloody mess. That kid would be very distraught after such experience. Its a hard thing to witness even for an adult.

Same goes for people rearing game. They put in a lot of work, only for a predator to wipe it all out over night. These sort of incidents can leave a bad taste in the mouth, to say the least.

Of course the finger of blame, is pointed in the wrong direction. It's not the Pine Martens fault of course, when such incidents happen.

I said this before, and I'll say it again. There ain't much difference between a Mink and a Marten. One is an evasive species, and the other, a protected one. One is seen as the devil itself, and the other a beautiful native predator. I respect them both, but also know what their capable of.

I understand why farmers fear them. I understand why people raising game fear them. But surely they should look towards keeping their animals safe instead of eliminating the predators.

Pine martens are beautiful animals. We'll capable of destroying an entire flock due to their nature. But no one is more capable of destruction than people.

blackpearl

Is this a hunting forum ?,because theirs people comming on here that dont hunt anymore and people who started the thread that are not hunters what next ,i am on american hunting forums and none of this do gooder bull...t would be put up with,and hunters have the right to voice their opion if they hate the sight of pinemartins or buzzards the same as hunters have the right to defend them,but animal lovers comming on here and spouting about pinemartins been a lovely animals come on.

Eddie B

Brian? wrote: »

I understand why farmers fear them. I understand why people raising game fear them. But surely they should look towards keeping their animals safe instead of eliminating the predators.

Pine martens are beautiful animals. We'll capable of destroying an entire flock due to their nature. But no one is more capable of destruction than people.

Yes totally agree with you, but not everyone is clued up on nature. Mightn't be clued up on securing a pen to make it predator proof either.

It's a bit like a neughbours dog pooing on your lawn, or cat killing birds at the feeder you put out for them during the winter. Not the animals fault, but you can't help but be peed off by their actions.

Woodville56

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Wait until one or two of them move into someones attic..They will total a place in no time building their nests.

I've had then in the attic - raised their kits there, then left - beautiful animals

Brian?

blackpearl wrote: »

Is this a hunting forum ?,because theirs people comming on here that dont hunt anymore and people who started the thread that are not hunters what next ,i am on american hunting forums and none of this do gooder bull...t would be put up with,and hunters have the right to voice their opion if they hate the sight of pinemartins or buzzards the same as hunters have the right to defend them,but animal lovers comming on here and spouting about pinemartins been a lovely animals come on.

Can't I express my opinion as well? I've hunted deer, rabbit and various birds. I've also done plenty of fishing. I don't currently hunt as I don't have the time or the money to invest in equipment. Is my opinion less valid than yours?

I'm asking why you hate the sight of them. You haven't answered that at all. Is it because they reduce the number of pheasant, woodcock etc to hunt?

extremetaz

Eddie B wrote: »

Pine Marten, are predators! The word FUN shouldn't even come into a discussion, thats more a human trait.

Cass wrote: »

Yup. Anthropomorphism.

With the greatest of respect gents, and with my hunter hat firmly in place, and with full awareness that anthropomorphic association is also an issue that we face, the above is simply not true - evidence of play is readily evident in most young animals, and action undertaken for pleasure/perceived reward is a mainstay across mammalian life, not to mention the underpinning reason why many animals may be trained or learn behaviours which they perceive to be to their benefit.

Do birds have the capacity for fun?
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982214011403

Animal pleasure and its moral significance
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159109000483

An academic life: researching and teaching animal behaviour
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347214001213

Don't know if you'll be able to access those links, I'm inside the college and that provides certain privilages in that regard, but the above are all peer reviewed papers from the journals of Current biology, Applied animal behaviour science, and Animal behaviour respectively. The point of animal cognisance is contentious, but more and more, it is becoming understood to be 'a thing' as it were, and there are MANY more publications to the point from similar caliber journals.

Sure isn't it that appreciation of cognisance which drives us as hunters to deliver a clean kill? Is suffering not also a point of same "anthropomorphic" projection?

Brian? wrote: »

Shouldn't hunters appreciate how good a predator the Pine Marten is. They are phenomenal creatures.

That they are - incredibly effective.

Brian? wrote: »

I understand why farmers fear them. I understand why people raising game fear them. But surely they should look towards keeping their animals safe instead of eliminating the predators.

Whilst that may seem obvious, the truth is that control of predators has long been the go-to method for stock preservation - what you're talking about right there is, accordingly, highly contentious. That's not to say that you're wrong, the reason for the 'control of predators' method however is that historically, it's been an effective, maintainable, relatively cheap means of dealing with the problem. It is not however, a symbiotic one, and on that point I'm in full agreement with you - attitudes need to change. Hunting should always be done with a mindset towards conservation, not eradication, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread.

Brian? wrote: »

Pine martens are beautiful animals. We'll capable of destroying an entire flock due to their nature. But no one is more capable of destruction than people.

Indeed.

Eddie B wrote: »

It's a bit like a neughbours dog pooing on your lawn, or cat killing birds at the feeder you put out for them during the winter. Not the animals fault, but you can't help but be peed off by their actions.

The bit in bold specifically - you can't blame an animal for its nature. F*ck knows we've plenty of bad in our own, but the thing is that we have the ability to modify ours if we choose to do so - for better or worse, wildlife does not.

Eddie B

extremetaz wrote: »

With the greatest of respect gents, and with my hunter hat firmly in place, and with full awareness that anthropomorphic association is also a issue that we face, the above is simply not true - evidence of play is readily evident in most young animals, and action undertaken for pleasure/perceived reward is a mainstay across mammalian life, not to mention the underpinning reason why many animals may be trained or learn behaviours which they perceive to be to their benefit.

OK fair point, but I think using the word fun in this instance is a bit much. Does a fox etc, kill a pen full of chickens for fun, or for hunger? Is it a predatory instinct to keep killing, or is it just for the fun of it, with no intentions of actually eating what it's killed?

Obviously a predator gets some rush of excitement whilst killing, but can this be described as fun? Personally I don't think so.

extremetaz

Eddie B wrote: »

OK fair point, but I think using the word fun in this instance is a bit much. Does a fox etc, kill a pen full of chickens for fun, or for hunger? Is it a predatory instinct to keep killing, or is it just for the fun of it, with no intentions of actually eating what it's killed?

Obviously a predator gets some rush of excitement whilst killing, but can this be described as fun? Personally I don't think so.

Yes, I believe that it can, or to use another turn of phrase, they can 'get carried away' - and particularly if you consider the age of the animal. I would expect that where there is an instance of mass slaughter, you'll find that in the case of the fox, you're dealing with a young, excitable animal rather than an older more stable one to whom the exercise is far less of a novelty and far more of a means to an end. 'Excitement' and 'Boredom' are readily oberservable in animals, and maturity plays a role in the prevelance of both.

Cass

This will be the only warning on this thread then it's infractions and if necessary bans.

Everyone has the right to come on here and post. We welcome all views and not just the hunting side. Reasoned discussion and debate breeds awareness, ideas, and understanding.

Back seat moderation is not allowed and will not be tolerated.

ligertigon

The sooner the better, people become aware that;

Pinemartins do what they do. Its not personal, don't get upset about them or their presence.

Foxes also do what they do, all these animals are just going about their business.

When they cross your path and cause loss to your stock, thats YOUR fault. Don't cry and whinge about how terrible they are ffs, they just do what they do.

Proof your pens from the pinemartin and thats it, cull the foxes if need be.
But stop crying about them, we have very few indigenous mammals as it is...

grassroot1

Pinemartin proof a pen! let me know how that works out for you.

ligertigon

grassroot1 wrote: »

Pinemartin proof a pen! let me know how that works out for you.

1/2 inch wire mesh isn't rocket science:p

grassroot1

ligertigon wrote: »

1/2 inch wire mesh isn't rocket science:p

No but it is useless against a great climber. It is close to impossible to keep them out of a pen, but either way the aim is to release the birds and the pinemartin will kill them then.

Gonehawking

ligertigon wrote: »

1/2 inch wire mesh isn't rocket science:p

If you mean the light gauge 1/2 inch wire that is used on rabbit hutches your wasting your time they will get through it eventually :roll eyes:.

extremetaz

grassroot1 wrote: »

either way the aim is to release the birds and the pinemartin will kill them then.

So we're to value the animal who's reared for slaughter in support of recreation and nothing more and which, according to you, can't survive on it's own instinct to begin with, over the animal who's both indiginous, and capable, in the wild... is that it?

Gonehawking

blackpearl wrote: »

Pine martins are listed as a predator to sparrowhawks as well as barn owls,goss hawks ect,dont no if it attacks on the ground when hawk is on prey or raids nests for young birds.

Yes they kill lots of birds of prey/eggs during the breeding season as well as a lot of other birds, due to the fact that they are very good climbers.

blackpearl

extremetaz wrote: »

So we're to value the animal who's reared for slaughter in support of recreation and nothing more and which, according to you, can't survive on it's own instinct to begin with, over the animal who's both indiginous, and capable, in the wild... is that it?

YES,pheasant shooting is one of the most important forms of hunting in this country and 99% of gun clubs work around pheasant hunting a lot of hard work is carried out by these clubs as far as vermin control building pens and looking after birds, well pheasants are here since the 10 century so their indiginous enough for me and most of the people that hunts them,you are talking about a lot of people here between boots ,clothing,guns,amo, dogs, dog food, ect this is a big buinness around the country so when a little cuddley animal wants do slaughter our birds yes we are pissed of,but cant do anything about it because their protected.