Pine Marten

Brian?

blackpearl wrote: »

YES,pheasant shooting is one of the most important forms of hunting in this country and 99% of gun clubs work around pheasant hunting a lot of hard work is carried out by these clubs as far as vermin control building pens and looking after birds, well pheasants are here since the 10 century so their indiginous enough for me and most of the people that hunts them,you are talking about a lot of people here between boots ,clothing,guns,amo, dogs, dog food, ect this is a big buinness around the country so when a little cuddley animal wants do slaughter our birds yes we are pissed of,but cant do anything about it because their protected.

No one is saying you shouldn't be pissed off when a pine marten destroys your stock. But to want to see them wiped out is a whole different story. Who says pine martens are cuddly? They're phenomenal predators.

Pheasant are not indigenous.

blackpearl

Brian? wrote: »

No one is saying you shouldn't be pissed off when a pine marten destroys your stock. But to want to see them wiped out is a whole different story. Who says pine martens are cuddly? They're phenomenal predators.

Pheasant are not indigenous.

in my mind they are, and they are the back bone of hunting in this country so youwant to see the wholescale murder of all kinds of wildlife in this country all because you think that pinemartins are phenomenal predators rembember this only for the hard work of gun clubs trapping mink in this country wildlife in general would be in a sorry state,pinemartins are as bad as mink when it comes to killing.

Brian?

blackpearl wrote: »

in my mind they are, and they are the back bone of hunting in this country so youwant to see the wholescale murder of all kinds of wildlife in this country all because you think that pinemartins are phenomenal predators rembember this only for the hard work of gun clubs trapping mink in this country wildlife in general would be in a sorry state,pinemartins are as bad as mink when it comes to killing.

I think I understand now. You consider birds raised for hunting as "wildlife". I wouldn't, they're animals raised for hunting. I also think it's interesting that you consider a predator killing an animal to be murder. Why is it murder when a pine marten kills a pheasant and sport when you or I do it?

Pine martens are actually wildlife. An indigenous species, that almost went extinct due to destruction of habitat and hunting.

Protect your stock as well as you can, but leave the pine martens do what comes naturally.

Half-cocked

grassroot1 wrote: »

Pinemartin proof a pen! let me know how that works out for you.

Electric fence with wires close to the ground and up around all pop holes. No overhanging branches for the Marten to climb over the top. Plenty of Martens on our patch and they've yet to get into our pen.

extremetaz

blackpearl wrote: »

YES,pheasant shooting is one of the most important forms of hunting in this country and 99% of gun clubs work around pheasant hunting a lot of hard work is carried out by these clubs as far as vermin control building pens and looking after birds, well pheasants are here since the 10 century so their indiginous enough for me and most of the people that hunts them,you are talking about a lot of people here between boots ,clothing,guns,amo, dogs, dog food, ect this is a big buinness around the country so when a little cuddley animal wants do slaughter our birds yes we are pissed of,but cant do anything about it because their protected.

There's no arguing that there's a commercial case for pheasant hunting, no question about it - but placing that commerciality above the natural environment is both contradictory, and unsustainable. Two things which fly entirely in the face of what hunting and 'country pursuits' are supposed to be about.

There's also no arguing that having your stock destroyed sucks - there is an awful lot of time and effort put into rearing game birds, no doubt about it. There again however, exterminating other species is not the answer - we need to be able to function in the presence of these creatures; this bloody minded, colonial, 'it's inconvenient - shoot it' attitude needs to go away.

blackpearl wrote: »

in my mind they are,

Irrelevent - they aren't - simple fact.
Furthermore, according to another post earlier in this thread, they can't survive on their own anyway, by which logic they haven't "been here" for that period, they've had their numbers "artificially sustained" for that period.

blackpearl wrote: »

and they are the back bone of hunting in this country

Then there's plenty of resources available to build the pens appropriately

blackpearl wrote: »

so youwant to see the wholescale murder of all kinds of wildlife in this country all because you think that pinemartins are phenomenal predators rembember this only for the hard work of gun clubs trapping mink in this country wildlife in general would be in a sorry state,pinemartins are as bad as mink when it comes to killing.

...and yet how many gunclubs are on their knee's on account of mink? and sure apparently the country is full of them!! sure isn't there a bounty on them 'n' all?...

You're overblowing the potential impact and you know it - if Marten populations ever come within a country mile of mink numbers (which, lets not forget, are drastically artificially inflated on account of mass release), then the protections will be lifted and you can have your free-for-all.

Until then, they're another predator to keep rabbit, rat, grey squirrel and other vermin populations down, and that's no bad thing.

Our goal should always be to keep wildlife as diverse and naturally balancing as possible, predator species are massively important in keeping the lower order species in check - yes, they come with their caveats but we'll deal with them just like we deal with mink, fox, grey crow, etc...

Taking them out of the equation altogether is simply not necessary, the balance will be found.

John_Rambo

blackpearl wrote: »

in my mind they are, and they are the back bone of hunting in this country so youwant to see the wholescale murder of all kinds of wildlife in this country all because you think that pinemartins are phenomenal predators rembember this only for the hard work of gun clubs trapping mink in this country wildlife in general would be in a sorry state,pinemartins are as bad as mink when it comes to killing.

The pine martin is an accomplished hunter. Hunting isn't actually murder.

yubabill1

extremetaz wrote: »

Furthermore, according to another post earlier in this thread, they can't survive on their own anyway, by which logic they haven't "been here" for that period, they've had their numbers "artificially sustained" for that period.

I live miles away from any gun club land and we have a thin population of pheasants. I found a pheasant nest with hatched eggs when I cleared an overgrown part of the garden a few years ago, so I assume they breed.

We also have a new population of pine martens in the last few (less than 5) years and I'm a bit worried about the few woodcock around more than anything.

extremetaz

yubabill1 wrote: »

I live miles away from any gun club land and we have a thin population of pheasants. I found a pheasant nest with hatched eggs when I cleared an overgrown part of the garden a few years ago, so I assume they breed.

Yup, no doubt, have done many times myself. I was being semi-facetious. I'm well aware that pheasant breed in the wild, and that they're well capable of sustaining their own numbers in the absence of wildfowling - the point I was trying to make was that the assertion that the Marten will impact significantly on pheasant numbers, and particularly relative to hunters, is overblown. Any bird which nests on the ground already has any number of predators in the Irish landscape that would have wiped it out long ago if the equation was that simple - fox, mink, stoat, badger, rats, corvids, even f*ckin' hedgehogs will take a stab at a pheasant nest!

blackpearl

extremetaz wrote: »

Yup, no doubt, have done many times myself. I was being semi-facetious. I'm well aware that pheasant breed in the wild, and that they're well capable of sustaining their own numbers in the absence of wildfowling - the point I was trying to make was that the assertion that the Marten will impact significantly on pheasant numbers, and particularly relative to hunters, is overblown. Any bird which nests on the ground already has any number of predators in the Irish landscape that would have wiped it out long ago if the equation was that simple - fox, mink, stoat, badger, rats, corvids, even f*ckin' hedgehogs will take a stab at a pheasant nest!

So pheasants can survie on their own, would they be classed as wild pheasants which the country was full of up until 7 or 8 years ago the last thing we need is pinemartins running amock .Their was a lot more people hunting 10 to15 years ago than now and their was plenty of pheasants to say that they could sustain numbers in the abcence of wildfowling is a insult to hunting men and saying shooting every thing that moves is a other insult,and yes when the martin becomes unprocted i will be one of the many hunters in ireland after them just the same as foxes,mink ,greys and mags .

blackpearl

John_Rambo wrote: »

The pine martin is an accomplished hunter. Hunting isn't actually murder.

How many times a week do you hunt vermin or help in the looking after pens? its not just pheasants that benafit from the work done by people who keep vermin numbers down,so putting a highly skilled killer out in the wild like a pine marten in my mind is a sin.

John_Rambo

blackpearl wrote: »

How many times a week do you hunt vermin or help in the looking after pens? its not just pheasants that benafit from the work done by people who keep vermin numbers down,so putting a highly skilled killer out in the wild like a pine marten in my mind is a sin.

Nobody "put" them out there in the wild, they are part of the wild, have been for a long time, will be for a long time. Are you confusing them with non-indigenous released species? And... there's nothing sinful about nature or wildlife.

Captainaxiom

blackpearl wrote: »

How many times a week do you hunt vermin or help in the looking after pens? its not just pheasants that benafit from the work done by people who keep vermin numbers down,so putting a highly skilled killer out in the wild like a pine marten in my mind is a sin.

He's not a highly skilled killer he's a highly skilled HUNTER

Cass

Brian? wrote: »

Why is it murder when a pine marten kills a pheasant and sport when you or I do it?

John_Rambo wrote: »

The pine martin is an accomplished hunter. Hunting isn't actually murder.

People, we're getting dangerously close to discussing the morality and ethics of hunting as a sport which is against the forum charter.

It's a 100% legal sport and the discussion of it as an ethical/moral pursuit is not allowed.

I don't want to stymie the discussion, but i will ask that everyone keep the discussion as close to the topic of the thread as is possible.

Brian?

blackpearl wrote: »

How many times a week do you hunt vermin or help in the looking after pens? its not just pheasants that benafit from the work done by people who keep vermin numbers down,so putting a highly skilled killer out in the wild like a pine marten in my mind is a sin.

Don't you think if there were more predators out there, there would be far less vermin to cull?

Martens will take rabbit, grey squirrels and rats just as happily as pheasant.

No one is releasing marauding bands of pine martens around Ireland. They're coming back naturally.

allan450

What about the wild grouse that has no pens to keep vermin out.The parks know there is a problem with the number of pine martian that is a fact but nothing can be done as of yet.

grassroot1

Brian? wrote: »

No one is releasing marauding bands of pine martens around Ireland. They're coming back naturally.

I think they have been translocated in some instances to be fair.

Gonehawking

allan450 wrote: »

What about the wild grouse that has no pens to keep vermin out.The parks know there is a problem with the number of pine martian that is a fact but nothing can be done as of yet.

You took the words right out of my mouth..as well as suffering severe loss of habitat, they also now have to try and survive and rear young with an increase in Pine Martin numbers and also Hen Harriers, no wonder they are on the brink of extinction !!!

ligertigon

allan450 wrote: »

What about the wild grouse that has no pens to keep vermin out.The parks know there is a problem with the number of pine martian that is a fact but nothing can be done as of yet.

Primary decline of grouse is aforestation, blanket burning, fragmentation of lands, peat removal activities, and the wetter weather.
Of course, pine marten prefer wooded areas so have little to no impact on grouse populations.

Vizzy

ligertigon wrote: »

Primary decline of grouse is aforestation, blanket burning, fragmentation of lands, peat removal activities, and the wetter weather.
Of course, pine marten prefer wooded areas so have little to no impact on grouse populations.

100% to this.

Biggest threat to wild grouse are corvids and to a lesser extent Harriers and other BOP.

Are people advocating a complete cull of all Buzzards, Hawks, Falcons and of course Pine Martin ?

Birdnuts

Gonehawking wrote: »

You took the words right out of my mouth..as well as suffering severe loss of habitat, they also now have to try and survive and rear young with an increase in Pine Martin numbers and also Hen Harriers, no wonder they are on the brink of extinction !!!

.

Hen Harriers are actually in swift decline for the same reason as grouse, as they have always shared the same habitat which is being hammered throughout the country. The decline in grouse numbers is as severe(if not more) in areas without Hen Harriers(Mayo, Roscommon etc.) as it is in the SW . Grouse and Hen Harriers still doing ok in some places in the midlands. Pine Martens will predate HH nests too but studies have shown that corvids and foxes are the main menace in these open habitats.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/irish-hen-harrier-numbers-continue-to-decline-survey-says-1.2618001

PS: Under a new scheme being run with EU funds, farmers in HH areas will get top up payments for maintaining Hen Harrier habitat and not converting it to industrial conifer plantations or wind farms. This will benefit grouse and other upland birds too. Its about to be rolled out in the SW (Clare, Tipp, Limerick, Kerry) and then hopefully other areas in the coming years

Birdnuts

Vizzy wrote: »

100% to this.

Biggest threat to wild grouse are corvids and to a lesser extent Harriers and other BOP.

Are people advocating a complete cull of all Buzzards, Hawks, Falcons and of course Pine Martin ?

If they are then they are living in cloud cuckoo land and such a move would put an end to any lingering public support there is for hunting out there. Indeed I would rate such people as more a threat to the sport than any in the anti-brigade. In any case it would never get past any basic scientific scrutiny and so would violate most EU bird/habitat directives and Irish wildlife laws. If Pine Martens are causing local problems licences can be sought for their removal via the NPWS. In the same way a small number of stoats and hedgehogs are removed from the partridge site at Boora.

On the subject of Grouse there is a new book on the history of the now extinct Golden Eagle in Co. Mayo coming out later this year. I was at a talk by the author last month. He mentioned a Grouse shooting estate near Bangor Erris which saw a decline in grouse bags when the Eagles vanished. The Estate owner put it down to the sharp increase in Corvids and other vermin when the Eagles died out. Goes to show sweeping statements about BOP's or any other top predators don't get us anywhere. And it not just an Irish thing. In Yellowstone NP in the US the return of wolves boosted ground nesting bird populations as they thinned out the numbers of coyotes, foxes etc. whose numbers had exploded in the absence of their main predator

Gonehawking

Golden Eagles are no longer extinct, they have been reintroduced.

Birdnuts

Gonehawking wrote: »

Golden Eagles are no longer extinct, they have been reintroduced.

I know - but they are struggling with only 4 pairs or so in Donegal despite all the efforts in the last 15 years. They have been exinct in Mayo since 1916, which was the last bird seen in the country till that recent re-introduction.

ligertigon

Birdnuts wrote: »

If they are then they are living in cloud cuckoo land and such a move would put an end to any lingering public support there is for hunting out there. Indeed I would rate such people as more a threat to the sport than any in the anti-brigade. In any case it would never get past any basic scientific scrutiny and so would violate most EU bird/habitat directives and Irish wildlife laws. If Pine Martens are causing local problems licences can be sought for their removal via the NPWS. In the same way a small number of stoats and hedgehogs are removed from the partridge site at Boora.

On the subject of Grouse there is a new book on the history of the now extinct Golden Eagle in Co. Mayo coming out later this year. I was at a talk by the author last month. He mentioned a Grouse shooting estate near Bangor Erris which saw a decline in grouse bags when the Eagles vanished. The Estate owner put it down to the sharp increase in Corvids and other vermin when the Eagles died out. Goes to show sweeping statements about BOP's or any other top predators don't get us anywhere. And it not just an Irish thing. In Yellowstone NP in the US the return of wolves boosted ground nesting bird populations as they thinned out the numbers of coyotes, foxes etc. whose numbers had exploded in the absence of their main predator

Couldn't have put it better myself

blackpearl

John_Rambo wrote: »

Nobody "put" them out there in the wild, they are part of the wild, have been for a long time, will be for a long time. Are you confusing them with non-indigenous released species? And... there's nothing sinful about nature or wildlife.

Answer the ? How many times do you hunt vermin ,and rais pheasants.

blackpearl

Brian? wrote: »

Don't you think if there were more predators out there, there would be far less vermin to cull?

Martens will take rabbit, grey squirrels and rats just as happily as pheasant.

No one is releasing marauding bands of pine martens around Ireland. They're coming back naturally.

No, and buy the way hunters dont class the rabbit as vermin,as far as i am concerned pinemartins are protected vermin.

blackpearl

Birdnuts wrote: »

.

Hen Harriers are actually in swift decline for the same reason as grouse, as they have always shared the same habitat which is being hammered throughout the country. The decline in grouse numbers is as severe(if not more) in areas without Hen Harriers(Mayo, Roscommon etc.) as it is in the SW . Grouse and Hen Harriers still doing ok in some places in the midlands. Pine Martens will predate HH nests too but studies have shown that corvids and foxes are the main menace in these open habitats.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/irish-hen-harrier-numbers-continue-to-decline-survey-says-1.2618001

PS: Under a new scheme being run with EU funds, farmers in HH areas will get top up payments for maintaining Hen Harrier habitat and not converting it to industrial conifer plantations or wind farms. This will benefit grouse and other upland birds too. Its about to be rolled out in the SW (Clare, Tipp, Limerick, Kerry) and then hopefully other areas in the coming years

SO where are these grouse going to come from?

blackpearl

Birdnuts wrote: »

.

Hen Harriers are actually in swift decline for the same reason as grouse, as they have always shared the same habitat which is being hammered throughout the country. The decline in grouse numbers is as severe(if not more) in areas without Hen Harriers(Mayo, Roscommon etc.) as it is in the SW . Grouse and Hen Harriers still doing ok in some places in the midlands. Pine Martens will predate HH nests too but studies have shown that corvids and foxes are the main menace in these open habitats.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/irish-hen-harrier-numbers-continue-to-decline-survey-says-1.2618001

PS: Under a new scheme being run with EU funds, farmers in HH areas will get top up payments for maintaining Hen Harrier habitat and not converting it to industrial conifer plantations or wind farms. This will benefit grouse and other upland birds too. Its about to be rolled out in the SW (Clare, Tipp, Limerick, Kerry) and then hopefully other areas in the coming years

O my god i have heard it all now,grouse numbers more so in decline where hen harrier numbers are down,one of the greatest surveys ever done on grouse and hen harriers living side by side was in langholm estate it was over a 10 year span, between the years 1995 -96 30%of adult grouse were killed by raptors in the winter, and a other 30% killed in the summer ,hen harriers accounted fo 40% of grouse chicks killed .The numbers of grouse on that moor would of been 4 times higher in the absent of raptors,good enough for me .I taught this thread was about pine martins now were back to birds of prey we all know the way this is going to go.

blackpearl

Birdnuts wrote: »

If they are then they are living in cloud cuckoo land and such a move would put an end to any lingering public support there is for hunting out there. Indeed I would rate such people as more a threat to the sport than any in the anti-brigade. In any case it would never get past any basic scientific scrutiny and so would violate most EU bird/habitat directives and Irish wildlife laws. If Pine Martens are causing local problems licences can be sought for their removal via the NPWS. In the same way a small number of stoats and hedgehogs are removed from the partridge site at Boora.

On the subject of Grouse there is a new book on the history of the now extinct Golden Eagle in Co. Mayo coming out later this year. I was at a talk by the author last month. He mentioned a Grouse shooting estate near Bangor Erris which saw a decline in grouse bags when the Eagles vanished. The Estate owner put it down to the sharp increase in Corvids and other vermin when the Eagles died out. Goes to show sweeping statements about BOP's or any other top predators don't get us anywhere. And it not just an Irish thing. In Yellowstone NP in the US the return of wolves boosted ground nesting bird populations as they thinned out the numbers of coyotes, foxes etc. whose numbers had exploded in the absence of their main predator

Problems solved lets release loads of golden eagles and packs of wolves the grouse numbers will explode.

Brian?

blackpearl wrote: »

No, and buy the way hunters dont class the rabbit as vermin,as far as i am concerned pinemartins are protected vermin.

So you don't think more predators would reduce vermin numbers? That's completely counter intuitive.

Rabbits are vermin. They just happen to be tasty. Any farmer I know considers them vermin.

What's your complete list of vermin? Does in include anything that will hunt your prey?