NBA Regular Season 2016-17

brady23

I think Lonzo Ball is going to go first especially if it's the Lakers Suns T-Wolves among others, basically anyone but Boston I'm sure but they still might take him too.
Pretty good showing in the NCAA tournament thus far which is what Fultz can't help.
The whole LaVar thing isn't idle buy probably building hype for a draft where the player's personal credentials aren't affected won't hurt.

What a great game from Westbrook 28-14-`11 6/6 from the field, 6/6 from the line, 2 blocked shots in 28 minutes

brady23

I'm trying to watch some more college ball this year, it's like a combo of international and NBA lots of good sets and hard defense, often better to watch than the NBA.
UCLA vs UK tonight, lot's of interest in the Lonzo Ball vs D'Aaron Fox/Malik Monk.
I think Fox could rise a few spots if he can keep hold of Ball, Monk is the best pure scorer in the draft and supposedly one of the best scorers in years.
It should be a great game

Funny enough the Suns starting 5 the other night were the 2nd youngest team on show that night including all college teams at 21yrs and 14 days

Yeah and Booker just scored 70 vs the Celtics

ButtersSuki

Woke up to see Devon Booker scored 70 and is youngest player ever to do so. Haven't even looked for video etc yet but wow.

ButtersSuki

Oh. He was chasing in a game they were always losing - and heavily at times. I see Boston aren't happy. Naughty boy/team.

Still hell of an achievement but won't go down well with purists.

nerd69

Didn't see the game but apparently the suns started fouling Boston players to get possession back so that booker could score again buzzard if true

ButtersSuki

nerd69 wrote: »

Didn't see the game but apparently the suns started fouling Boston players to get possession back so that booker could score again buzzard if true

Just watched it all, Boston were up 22-3 before he scored his first basket and it was that kinda lead for most of the game, and stretched to 26 at one stage. He was gunning like crazy in the 4th in particular and the suns were doing as you say - fouling to get the ball back etc. and passing up their own shots to pass to him.

It comes with a bit of an asterisk given those circumstances (not to mention that they lost) - it's very different from putting up say 50 in a close game or one you win. It's kinda disrectful in a way - I see some of the Boston players alluded to this.

Still, he can play!

Just on the Suns, the team they started last week against the Nets was the youngest starting 5 in NBA history....and younger than 15 of the 16 Sweet Sixteen teams. Crazy.

brady23

UCLA lost as I expected, Fox and Monk looked great for UK but there are no doubts that Ball was the most talented, he has Rubio/Rondo/LBJ type vision.

Monk is more of a DeMar Rozan and Fox like John Wall lite, definitely great chances to be all star calibre especially Monk, Fox's size would be a worry, he could end up being Reggie Jackson.

Ball is the real deal though, I havent seen Josh Jackson yet and Fultz didn't make it too far but I struggle to see either of them having more upside than Ball, definitely perennial All Star talent but his defense needs a lot of work, he was either lazy or a bad defender, his laid back style makes it hard to tell.

ButtersSuki

brady23 wrote: »

UCLA lost as I expected, Fox and Monk looked great for UK but there are no doubts that Ball was the most talented, he has Rubio/Rondo/LBJ type vision.

Monk is more of a DeMar Rozan and Fox like John Wall lite, definitely great chances to be all star calibre especially Monk, Fox's size would be a worry, he could end up being Reggie Jackson.

Ball is the real deal though, I havent seen Josh Jackson yet and Fultz didn't make it too far but I struggle to see either of them having more upside than Ball, definitely perennial All Star talent but his defense needs a lot of work, he was either lazy or a bad defender, his laid back style makes it hard to tell.

Consensus is he'll go 2. I wouldn't be surprised where he goes 1-3 depending on the lottery though.

It will be interesting to see how he develops and I'm saying that fully expecting him to be very good. He could be a franchise player or "just" a better than average NBA PG. The league is becoming so guard-heavy and pg-heavy in particular it's hard to know where he'll rank in a few years.

He has weaknesses as you alluded to, but the one I'm most puzzled about is shot related, but not technique (as weird as that is). Even allowing for his crazy technique his 3pt shooting is very good, his FT% however is shocking for a guy who shoots so well from deep. In a funny way that's where the mechanics are hurting him most - when it's all slowed down.

brady23

Rockets vs OKC in 20 minutes should be a good game, MVP debate could be over tonight.
Heat vs Celtics too which could be well be first round of the playoffs.
Hawks on a 6 game losing streak has changed the east a bit, it allows the Bucks to move up, I don't think the Wizards or Raptors will be happy if they draw the Bucks in the first round

alexhardy

Good game Rockets vs OKC,it seems that the Oscar's record falls.Amazing "stats" season.

ButtersSuki

Boston tied with the Cavs for best record in the East now, and have one more win (and one more loss). Will be interesting if they can get ahead and stay ahead and get the #1 seed - could potentially make a huge difference come Play Off time.

K.O.Kiki

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Boston tied with the Cavs for best record in the East now, and have one more win (and one more loss). Will be interesting if they can get ahead and stay ahead and get the #1 seed - could potentially make a huge difference come Play Off time.

LeBron is just biding his time...

ButtersSuki

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

LeBron is just biding his time...

Not so sure about that, they have problems right now. For example, defensively, since the All Star game they're 28th in the league.

brady23

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=19007563

More this than anything, they don't care nearly as much about the number one seed as the rest of the East but I would disagree with Windhorst in that if their main issue was health LBJ wouldn't be playing 40 mins like he has recently, figuring out postseason rotations with Williams and Sanders is probably the short term goal

ButtersSuki

How about that truly epic collapse from the clippers last night? Outsored 22-3 down the stretch to lose by 1.

NufcNavan

ButtersSuki wrote: »

How about that truly epic collapse from the clippers last night? Outsored 22-3 down the stretch to lose by 1.

Clippers will always be Clippers.

rushfan

Celtics about to become the no 1 in the East within the hour, seemingly. Back in their rightful position!!

NufcNavan

rushfan wrote: »

Celtics about to become the no 1 in the East within the hour, seemingly. Back in their rightful position!!

And with a lottery pick coming up. The Celtics are in great shape.

K.O.Kiki

Something something Russell Westbrook MVP

Oh god, now I'm thinking it too!

nerd69

Raptors are still an awful matchup for the celtics and the only reason they are 1 seed is the cavs have been resting a lot.

This offseason is key for the celtics. They have accumulated a serious amount of assets but they risk losing a lot of them for nothing. You can't resign it,ab and smart and if you get get fultz and it can you play both because they are both ball dominant.

LuckyLloyd

Couple of thoughts:

- The Cavs aren't managing the roster changes well. Everyone is available right now and they're an utter disaster. They still have time to put it together but they're a long way off what's required

- This forum seems to dislike Westbrook because he's stat padding or whatever. While his rebound quest is tactically suboptimal, the win / loss figures for the Thunder climb in proportion to his usage and raw statistics so far this year. The more he gets his, the more the Thunder win.

nerd69

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Couple of thoughts:

- The Cavs aren't managing the roster changes well. Everyone is available right now and they're an utter disaster. They still have time to put it together but they're a long way off what's required

- This forum seems to dislike Westbrook because he's stat padding or whatever. While his rebound quest is tactically suboptimal, the win / loss figures for the Thunder climb in proportion to his usage and raw statistics so far this year. The more he gets his, the more the Thunder win.

Equally it could be argued that his teammates never get an opertunity to get going due to his usage rate.

ButtersSuki

I'm not anti-Westbrook!

For me based on what he's done this year he's the MVP. I personally don't even think it's close. Harden has had a great year, but Westbrook is doing something for the ages if he manages to hold it together over these last few weeks (I've tickets for the game v the Nuggets in Denver on April 9th so looking forward to that). Someone said on the open Floor Podcast last week (I think) something along the lines of "no one remembers who won the title in 1963, but everyone knows Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double" - the same will be true for Russ if he does it.

nerd69

ButtersSuki wrote: »

I'm not anti-Westbrook!

For me based on what he's done this year he's the MVP. I personally don't even think it's close. Harden has had a great year, but Westbrook is doing something for the ages if he manages to hold it together over these last few weeks (I've tickets for the game v the Nuggets in Denver on April 9th so looking forward to that). Someone said on the open Floor Podcast last week (I think) something along the lines of "no one remembers who won the title in 1963, but everyone knows Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double" - the same will be true for Russ if he does it.

Oscar averaged a triple double
Wilt averaged 50
Russell won MVP and the title

I thought most people know that because it was constantly used as an example of how teams wins should matter for MVP

brady23

I think Westbrook has obviously been great and the triple double thing is excellent don't get me wrong but if Westbrook wins you're essentially saying.

1pt more, 2 rebounds more and 1 less assist is worth more than someone who guides a team of similar talent to an extra 9-10 wins. Not to mention Hardens numbers are arguably better due to his higher eFG% among other numbers.

I checked and last year the 6 leaders on each team in terms of minutes outside of them two had almost an identical amount of win shares between them.

They're close on talent and I do think Harden has done more to elevate his teammates, they have the highest differential in predicted wins for example.
These to me are indicators of "Most Valuable Player".
I think Cuban, Curry, LBJ among others have indicated the feeling in the league that amongst peers, owners, writers, analysts etc that Harden is their pick

The whole nostalgia attached to a Triple Double is detracting people from it's actual value imo

nerd69

Is there any argument to be made for kwahi since he's also arguably the best defender in the league

brady23

nerd69 wrote: »

Is there any argument to be made for kwahi since he's also arguably the best defender in the league

I don't think so given the seasons Westbrook and Harden are having, like I said to Kiki if Spurs had got first and Rockets slipped to 5 or lower and OKC to 7th or lower, I think he's definitely in the conversation but given the Rockets and OKCs standings then I wouldn't think so.

That being said I wouldn't be surprised if he was alot of people's 2nd or 3rd pick, say Cuban said Westbrook isn't in the top 3 so if quite a few are as traditional as him than Kawhi could get alot of 2nd place votes.

No one has won MVP without 50 wins since 1983

brady23

nerd69 wrote: »

Raptors are still an awful matchup for the celtics and the only reason they are 1 seed is the cavs have been resting a lot.

This offseason is key for the celtics. They have accumulated a serious amount of assets but they risk losing a lot of them for nothing. You can't resign it,ab and smart and if you get get fultz and it can you play both because they are both ball dominant.

Celtics big issue is paying guys, personally I think the Harford move was a waste of time if they weren't going after a 3rd star say George/Butler at the deadline.

Horford and even Thomas's timeline don't match well with the rest of their assets and now Thomas is going to have to be paid, so is Crowder he's on 900k.

They needed to swing for the fences at the trade deadline or not sign Horford imo.

I don't think they're at risk per say because of the Nets deal but they have alot of people to pay very soon so they need to do a semi reset or make some moves with some picks and become a genuine championship contender.
They have too many assets not to be relevant.

I love Ainge and I think Steven's could be the next Pop but the next 2 years are crucial.

I'm sure Randavie would be willing to give a Kings ransom for Thomas. All my picks for the next 10 years, Skal Labiserre, Willie Cauley Stein for Thomas, sounds possible.

ButtersSuki

brady23 wrote: »

I think Westbrook has obviously been great and the triple double thing is excellent don't get me wrong but if Westbrook wins you're essentially saying.

1pt more, 2 rebounds more and 1 less assist is worth more than someone who guides a team of similar talent to an extra 9-10 wins. Not to mention Hardens numbers are arguably better due to his higher eFG% among other numbers.

I checked and last year the 6 leaders on each team in terms of minutes outside of them two had almost an identical amount of win shares between them.

They're close on talent and I do think Harden has done more to elevate his teammates, they have the highest differential in predicted wins for example.
These to me are indicators of "Most Valuable Player".
I think Cuban, Curry, LBJ among others have indicated the feeling in the league that amongst peers, owners, writers, analysts etc that Harden is their pick

The whole nostalgia attached to a Triple Double is detracting people from it's actual value imo

Have you seen this?
http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics

Not sure how much you know about the Hollinger stats (there's an amazingly interesting (for nerds) Ringer Podcast with him as the guest out there somewhere) but they're about as advanced as you can get, and Westbrook is ahead by a considerable margin on those.

I'm not a Harden hater by any means (quite the opposite) and I think in any other year he's the MVP, but what Westbrook is doing night after night is to me, more impressive. I've posted repeatedly that Presti is repsonsible for making the wrong call in alowing him to leave and I said that before he ever played a game for Houston. IMO OKC would have had multiple Finals trips by now if they had kept the Durant/Russ/Harden trio together. Presti picked Ibaka over Harden and the rest is hostory.

On the other hand (and you can check my posts on this) I've been hugely critical of Westbrook over the years - hugely so. If anything I'd be far more positive on Harden than Westbrook historically.

I disagree however that they have similar talent around them. I think Houston has a better squad overall (they underperformed last year IMO) and crucially they have the assets that showcase Harden's game. Westbrook does not have an army of good 3 point shooters like Houston does to space the floor giving him solid 1v1 opps from which to score or pick up assists like Harden does. The game is easier (relatively) when you have spacing like that.

On your point on elevating his teamamtes - Harden has the right coach and the right system (almost the perfect system actually) to showcase his game and to make him look very good right now. I don't think Westbrook has either to be fair. It's a hypotetchical question for sure but I think if you switched them right now both teams lose more games, but I think a Westbrook playing for Houston loses less than Harden on OKC. And as I alluded to in the previous paragraph if I'm a spot up 3 point shooter I'm going to look very good playing with James Harden - he's the perfect guy to make me look good. And Houston have a bunch of them (Houston have 6 players who take more than 6 x 3s a game, OKC have 1 - Westbrook).

A couple of finals points - on scoring Houston are at 115.8 v OKC's 107.0. On the rebounds and this is not insignificant IMO - Houston take more shots per game than OKC. They also take a LOT more 3's. Both of those (and in particular the 3's - 40.3 v 25.6) give you more rebounding opportunites per game, which favours Harden.

Cuban is not a fan of Westbrook so it's likely a combination of that and him strirring the pot a little that fueled his comments (hardly the first time either). As for LBJ and others, loads have said Westbrook so it's kinda split.

I'm not saying Westbrook will be robed if he doesn't win it. Someone has to lose. IMO (and it's just my opinion, I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong) what he's doing is a little more impressive than what Harden is doing (and that's no slight on Harden, what he's done this year is incredible too).

ButtersSuki

brady23 wrote: »

Celtics big issue is paying guys, personally I think the Harford move was a waste of time if they weren't going after a 3rd star say George/Butler at the deadline.

Horford and even Thomas's timeline don't match well with the rest of their assets and now Thomas is going to have to be paid, so is Crowder he's on 900k.

They needed to swing for the fences at the trade deadline or not sign Horford imo.

I don't think they're at risk per say because of the Nets deal but they have alot of people to pay very soon so they need to do a semi reset or make some moves with some picks and become a genuine championship contender.
They have too many assets not to be relevant.

I love Ainge and I think Steven's could be the next Pop but the next 2 years are crucial.

I'm sure Randavie would be willing to give a Kings ransom for Thomas. All my picks for the next 10 years, Skal Labiserre, Willie Cauley Stein for Thomas, sounds possible.

Bill Simmons thinks they're dealing Isiah this summer depending on who they pull in the draft. I can understand the logic but I'd imagine the deal wouldn't go down well with the Boston faithful for whom Thomas is a hero right now. He was also pretty sure they're making moves on Hayward (because of the Stevens and Butler connection primarily) but I personally don't think he's at that level where those two deals combined moves them to the next level. They need more.

Agree the Horford deal wasn't the best move. I feel they did it as they lost the Durant sweepstakes. They have a great core, but they need to do something big this summer as the clock is ticking.