NBA Regular Season 2016-17

brady23

Harden wins the first MVP battle. It was actually Kawhi who took the gunner approach. That 14s on Harden won't last

Clippers are rolling at the minute.

Had the Trailblazers beat before the end of the 1st quarter with a lead of 20+ which hit 30 by the start of the 2nd and maxed out at 43.

That comes one game after they did the same to Detroit.

Mo Spaights is a massive addition.
They finally have a 7th decent player. After Crawford, who can blow hot and cold, they never had another bench player who could contribute.
Even guys like Felton and Bass can give you something now and then, former starters in their own rights.

NufcNavan

I thought that the win against the Lakers was the least encouraging win that we could have got. Well, I was wrong. This one was even less encouraging.

Let's go over some quick facts:

1) Joel Embiid wasn't playing. He's arguably their best player and he's averaging some great numbers so far (17.6 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 2.6 BPG and 1.2 APG).

2) The Sixers shot below 50% from the FT line. Yes, below 50%. They made 9 of their 19 FTs.

3) We gave up 109 points to the Sixers in regulation. They were scoring 90.3 points per 100 possessions prior to tonight's game. That can only mean one of two things. Either we allowed the Sixers to score much more efficiently than they usually do or we allowed the Sixers to have around 120 possessions. Needless to say, both options suck.

We were one clutch PG shot away from losing at home to a winless Sixers team that shot below 50% from the FT line and didn't even have their best player with them. Just think about that for a moment.

ButtersSuki

NufcNavan wrote: »

I thought that the win against the Lakers was the least encouraging win that we could have got. Well, I was wrong. This one was even less encouraging.

Let's go over some quick facts:

1) Joel Embiid wasn't playing. He's arguably their best player and he's averaging some great numbers so far (17.6 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 2.6 BPG and 1.2 APG).

2) The Sixers shot below 50% from the FT line. Yes, below 50%. They made 9 of their 19 FTs.

3) We gave up 109 points to the Sixers in regulation. They were scoring 90.3 points per 100 possessions prior to tonight's game. That can only mean one of two things. Either we allowed the Sixers to score much more efficiently than they usually do or we allowed the Sixers to have around 120 possessions. Needless to say, both options suck.

We were one clutch PG shot away from losing at home to a winless Sixers team that shot below 50% from the FT line and didn't even have their best player with them. Just think about that for a moment.

The loss later in the week to the same team must be giving sleepless nights then!

brady23

Lakers in an interesting situation now. Evidently Walton has mended Russell/Young relationship and both look the better for it. He's turned Clarkson into a 6th man of the year candidate and Randle looks good too.

Unfortunately with the contracts they've handed out they're tied into two players with no chance of being effective anymore on a good playoff team.

Subsequently they are now too good to tank and too bad to be a decent playoff team. They're clearly on an upward trajectory but I'm not 100% convinced yet they're a playoff team and if they're not they miss their chance to get a top 3 pick in one of the most loaded draft classes in memory, arguably the best on paper since 2003.

Clearly from the moves they made that was never the plan but I really wish they would have waited another year.
If they had kept that top 3 pick. Then perhaps traded it for say Cousins etc, picked up another good player in free agency Griffin, Curry, Durant, CP3 or the more realistic Lowry or Hayward they would be jumping a few steps ahead with Randle, Russell and Ingram all better players with more minutes.

buyer95

brady23 wrote: »

Lakers in an interesting situation now. Evidently Walton has mended Russell/Young relationship and both look the better for it. He's turned Clarkson into a 6th man of the year candidate and Randle looks good too.

Unfortunately with the contracts they've handed out they're tied into two players with no chance of being effective anymore on a good playoff team.

Subsequently they are now too good to tank and too bad to be a decent playoff team. They're clearly on an upward trajectory but I'm not 100% convinced yet they're a playoff team and if they're not they miss their chance to get a top 3 pick in one of the most loaded draft classes in memory, arguably the best on paper since 2003.

Clearly from the moves they made that was never the plan but I really wish they would have waited another year.
If they had kept that top 3 pick. Then perhaps traded it for say Cousins etc, picked up another good player in free agency Griffin, Curry, Durant, CP3 or the more realistic Lowry or Hayward they would be jumping a few steps ahead with Randle, Russell and Ingram all better players with more minutes.

No fear of that. They have started brightly, and will be significantly better than last year but 30 wins is as high as I could see this team going.

NufcNavan

ButtersSuki wrote: »

The loss later in the week to the same team must be giving sleepless nights then!

And the Cs too. We're a hot mess at the moment. And there is no easy fix either.

Firing Vogel and getting rid of George Hill have been two HUGE mistakes by Bird.

Every game that Larry lets this go on is one game closer to this year being a complete loss and potentially losing Paul.

I know that sounds really over dramatic, and maybe it is.

But I really believe it.

ButtersSuki

brady23 wrote: »

Lakers in an interesting situation now. Evidently Walton has mended Russell/Young relationship and both look the better for it. He's turned Clarkson into a 6th man of the year candidate and Randle looks good too.

Unfortunately with the contracts they've handed out they're tied into two players with no chance of being effective anymore on a good playoff team.

Subsequently they are now too good to tank and too bad to be a decent playoff team. They're clearly on an upward trajectory but I'm not 100% convinced yet they're a playoff team and if they're not they miss their chance to get a top 3 pick in one of the most loaded draft classes in memory, arguably the best on paper since 2003.

Clearly from the moves they made that was never the plan but I really wish they would have waited another year.
If they had kept that top 3 pick. Then perhaps traded it for say Cousins etc, picked up another good player in free agency Griffin, Curry, Durant, CP3 or the more realistic Lowry or Hayward they would be jumping a few steps ahead with Randle, Russell and Ingram all better players with more minutes.

Trust me, they will NOT be going to the Play Offs, even if they continue to improve. They'll play hard until the All Star break (if even that far) and tehn you'll see minutes down on key performers, "trying new combinations", resting guys, "injury lists", etc. They will tank even if their play is good enough to get into the Play Offs - in today's NBA a Top 3 draft pick is not something you give up when you're not a contender.

ButtersSuki

NufcNavan wrote: »

And the Cs too. We're a hot mess at the moment. And there is no easy fix either.

Firing Vogel and getting rid of George Hill have been two HUGE mistakes by Bird.

Every game that Larry lets this go on is one game closer to this year being a complete loss and potentially losing Paul.

I know that sounds really over dramatic, and maybe it is.

But I really believe it.

I'm not in panic mode just yet, but they are not playing well at all. It's taking a lot longer for the team to figure out the new personnel than I expected and tbh while it is early it's been disappointing.

brady23

I struggle to see them retaining the pick unless they get lucky on lottery night.
76ers and Nets probably 1-2.
Pelicans, Mavs, Wizards, Suns and Miami don't look great. They'll be battling a number of teams for it, I think they have 8 players good enough for 35 wins which definitely won't be bottom 3.

Kal El

brady23 wrote: »

Lakers in an interesting situation now. Evidently Walton has mended Russell/Young relationship and both look the better for it. He's turned Clarkson into a 6th man of the year candidate and Randle looks good too.

Unfortunately with the contracts they've handed out they're tied into two players with no chance of being effective anymore on a good playoff team.

Subsequently they are now too good to tank and too bad to be a decent playoff team. They're clearly on an upward trajectory but I'm not 100% convinced yet they're a playoff team and if they're not they miss their chance to get a top 3 pick in one of the most loaded draft classes in memory, arguably the best on paper since 2003.

Clearly from the moves they made that was never the plan but I really wish they would have waited another year.
If they had kept that top 3 pick. Then perhaps traded it for say Cousins etc, picked up another good player in free agency Griffin, Curry, Durant, CP3 or the more realistic Lowry or Hayward they would be jumping a few steps ahead with Randle, Russell and Ingram all better players with more minutes.

Dont see Deng or Mosgov lasting that long in LA, can see them getting moved on. Really you see that much talent in the draft, I dont see it at all. Lots of times its supposed to be a deep draft it turns out to be a big pool of even average players

brady23

Kal El wrote: »

brady23 wrote: »

Lakers in an interesting situation now. Evidently Walton has mended Russell/Young relationship and both look the better for it. He's turned Clarkson into a 6th man of the year candidate and Randle looks good too.

Unfortunately with the contracts they've handed out they're tied into two players with no chance of being effective anymore on a good playoff team.

Subsequently they are now too good to tank and too bad to be a decent playoff team. They're clearly on an upward trajectory but I'm not 100% convinced yet they're a playoff team and if they're not they miss their chance to get a top 3 pick in one of the most loaded draft classes in memory, arguably the best on paper since 2003.

Clearly from the moves they made that was never the plan but I really wish they would have waited another year.
If they had kept that top 3 pick. Then perhaps traded it for say Cousins etc, picked up another good player in free agency Griffin, Curry, Durant, CP3 or the more realistic Lowry or Hayward they would be jumping a few steps ahead with Randle, Russell and Ingram all better players with more minutes.

Dont see Deng or Mosgov lasting that long in LA, can see them getting moved on. Really you see that much talent in the draft, I dont see it at all. Lots of times its supposed to be a deep draft it turns out to be a big pool of even average players

Jackson, Fultz and Giles are all perennial All Stars, again on paper.
15/20 on espn insider big board are freshmen.
I think Giles would be far and away consensus number 1 but he's had a lot of knee troubles tearing multiple acls in both but he's dropped to 3 but he's got everything a modern 4 needs
I have little to go on but these 3 were all mentioned last year so it'll be cool to see anyway. Draft is always one of my favourite parts

NufcNavan

ButtersSuki wrote: »

I'm not in panic mode just yet, but they are not playing well at all. It's taking a lot longer for the team to figure out the new personnel than I expected and tbh while it is early it's been disappointing.

Stevens will figure it out. They have been unlucky with injuries.

Pacers on the other hand downgraded coach and put together a fundamentally flawed roster. Nice one Larry.

brady23

Ainge called Pelicans GM Dell Demps and threw out an offer like this: Jaylen Brown (No. 3 pick in 2016), Avery Bradley (25-year-old on bargain deal having All-Star-caliber season), Brooklyn's 2017 and 2018 first-round picks, another future first-round pick (either one of Boston's own or one its owed via Memphis), and $17 million in expiring salaries for Davis and Omer Asik?

Davis claims he likes the way the Celtics have done so well with little talent and hard work etc. Hypothetical trade scenario proposed by one of the espn guys.
I think if a deal like that was proposed, I take hand and all if I'm the Pelicans.

Kal El

brady23 wrote: »

Jackson, Fultz and Giles are all perennial All Stars, again on paper.
15/20 on espn insider big board are freshmen.
I think Giles would be far and away consensus number 1 but he's had a lot of knee troubles tearing multiple acls in both but he's dropped to 3 but he's got everything a modern 4 needs
I have little to go on but these 3 were all mentioned last year so it'll be cool to see anyway. Draft is always one of my favourite parts

Oh dont get me wrong, I love college basketball and the draft is my favourite part of NBA season. But I see them being similar to the 2014 draft. Where there might be a lot of good players but I dont see any game changers myself.

Outside of Wiggins that is, I think he will be amazing. His personality meant he was never going to be like lebron straight away. Down the line hes a MVP player.
As a Lakers fan I hope Randle becomes the player Randolph type player :cool: , which under Walton hes looking like doing
Parker and Embiid have injury problems ala Giles who like yourself I like the look off. Just on paper the draft has a very similar feel

Kal El

brady23 wrote: »

Ainge called Pelicans GM Dell Demps and threw out an offer like this: Jaylen Brown (No. 3 pick in 2016), Avery Bradley (25-year-old on bargain deal having All-Star-caliber season), Brooklyn's 2017 and 2018 first-round picks, another future first-round pick (either one of Boston's own or one its owed via Memphis), and $17 million in expiring salaries for Davis and Omer Asik?

Davis claims he likes the way the Celtics have done so well with little talent and hard work etc. Hypothetical trade scenario proposed by one of the espn guys.
I think if a deal like that was proposed, I take hand and all if I'm the Pelicans.

It be a class deal. But a face leaving a franchise. I cant see it

nerd69

brady23 wrote: »

Ainge called Pelicans GM Dell Demps and threw out an offer like this: Jaylen Brown (No. 3 pick in 2016), Avery Bradley (25-year-old on bargain deal having All-Star-caliber season), Brooklyn's 2017 and 2018 first-round picks, another future first-round pick (either one of Boston's own or one its owed via Memphis), and $17 million in expiring salaries for Davis and Omer Asik?

Davis claims he likes the way the Celtics have done so well with little talent and hard work etc. Hypothetical trade scenario proposed by one of the espn guys.
I think if a deal like that was proposed, I take hand and all if I'm the Pelicans.

As a Celtics fan I would bite the hand off the Pelicans for it Davis could end up the best player in the league or a 10 year period I can't imagine any team giving that up for any package

brady23

Yeah perhaps, I like you think Wiggins will be very good. I said a few weeks ago perhaps Paul George is the ceiling. Top 10 but not quite MVP but gets in the conversation now and then. He needs to get a tad bigger imo. I know quality of quantity but he has more of a Kawhi body than a Durant and he's somewhere in between right now. An extra few kilos I think would give him that ability to get those rebound numbers up.

I think the big thing with Randle is he's becoming more efficient offensively and defensively, he's always be limited given his length and lack of shooting but I think he could be a starter for a championship contender in the future. Like you said Randolph 2.0

Yeah I wouldn't disagree too much with the 2014 comparison.
I think the top is relatively similar in terms of ability although I do think Jackson, Fultz and especially Giles are perhaps better than the top 3 in 2014 at this point.

I think this draft is better than 2014 on depth. I think the top 3 guys in 2014 can be all be the 2nd best players on very good teams maybe even more.
Jabari is a great scorer who lost a lot of time to injury early on. He's shown more athleticism than was initially indicated which was one cause for concern so I see him being a very good player. He's a bit of a tweener but I think he's athletic enough to guard the 3 spot but ultimately I think he will play mostly the 4 which he's still figuring out.
Embiid is averaging 30+ points per 36 minutes (almost 8 TOs too) which is pretty ridiculous. He has all the skills to be in Davis and KAT conversation moving forward. Then we know about Wiggins.

However all that being said it's the depth in this draft that separates it. Smith, Ball, Ntilikina and Fox are all better prospects than Payton, Smart and Exum for example.
While Tatum, Issac and Rabb are all better prospects than Gordon, Vonleh and Randle.

I think it's a super interesting draft

ButtersSuki

brady23 wrote: »

Ainge called Pelicans GM Dell Demps and threw out an offer like this: Jaylen Brown (No. 3 pick in 2016), Avery Bradley (25-year-old on bargain deal having All-Star-caliber season), Brooklyn's 2017 and 2018 first-round picks, another future first-round pick (either one of Boston's own or one its owed via Memphis), and $17 million in expiring salaries for Davis and Omer Asik?

Davis claims he likes the way the Celtics have done so well with little talent and hard work etc. Hypothetical trade scenario proposed by one of the espn guys.
I think if a deal like that was proposed, I take hand and all if I'm the Pelicans.

If I'm Boston and I ONLY have to give up that for Davis I take it.

brady23

Makes total sense for both imo.
Evidently Pelicans GM etc don't have the ability to attract the right type of deal to help Davis. He's obviously a top 5 asset in terms of trade value and I think that's a decent deal given how f***** the Nets are.

If they done it today, you'd assume they're a bottom 2/3 team.
You give Brown starter minutes, you get Bradley who could help make a great culture going forward.
Maybe there are better deals out there but I don't know if there are too many which would essentially guarantee you. 4 top 5 picks over a 4 year period.

Obviously it's totally hypothetical and unlikely but I think it's a good reset for the Pelicans because I still have major doubts over Davis durability and given his athleticism is a key element of his game I don't know if he's going to get to the heights he suggested he might 2 years ago.

I think I would do the deal for Davis but maybe not for KAT based purely on durability

nerd69

brady23 wrote: »

Makes total sense for both imo.
Evidently Pelicans GM etc don't have the ability to attract the right type of deal to help Davis. He's obviously a top 5 asset in terms of trade value and I think that's a decent deal given how f***** the Nets are.

If they done it today, you'd assume they're a bottom 2/3 team.
You give Brown starter minutes, you get Bradley who could help make a great culture going forward.
Maybe there are better deals out there but I don't know if there are too many which would essentially guarantee you. 4 top 5 picks over a 4 year period.

Obviously it's totally hypothetical and unlikely but I think it's a good reset for the Pelicans because I still have major doubts over Davis durability and given his athleticism is a key element of his game I don't know if he's going to get to the heights he suggested he might 2 years ago.

I think I would do the deal for Davis but maybe not for KAT based purely on durability

But if they can't build around Davis how are they going to build around anything else that's why I dot understand it from the Pelicans side

buyer95

This is worth listening too. Popovich is so erudite [

ButtersSuki

I'm a Boston fan (and an optimistic one at that) but you don't make that deal if you're the Pelicans. You do everything in your power to hold onto him. Trades for a once in a generation player like that should rightly cost you the earth; the proposed trades above come nowhere near that. They're safe contract wise until 2022 so there's no gun to their head a la the Kings and Boogie. They don't need to trade him and on current form they'll be adding to the roster with lottery picks for the next few years so barring something truly bizarre and unexpected happening I can't see Davis moving.

Boogie however is reportedly being shopped again.......they have to trade him by All Star break or he's likely going to walk next July.

ButtersSuki

buyer95 wrote: »

This is worth listening too. Popovich is so erudite [

Heard those over the last few days. Van Gundy seems REALLY angry about it, Pop is more measured. A few others have spoken on it (like Kerr) but those two sum it up best.

Have you heard the Doc Rivers stuff? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

brady23

nerd69 wrote: »

brady23 wrote: »

Makes total sense for both imo.
Evidently Pelicans GM etc don't have the ability to attract the right type of deal to help Davis. He's obviously a top 5 asset in terms of trade value and I think that's a decent deal given how f***** the Nets are.

If they done it today, you'd assume they're a bottom 2/3 team.
You give Brown starter minutes, you get Bradley who could help make a great culture going forward.
Maybe there are better deals out there but I don't know if there are too many which would essentially guarantee you. 4 top 5 picks over a 4 year period.

Obviously it's totally hypothetical and unlikely but I think it's a good reset for the Pelicans because I still have major doubts over Davis durability and given his athleticism is a key element of his game I don't know if he's going to get to the heights he suggested he might 2 years ago.

I think I would do the deal for Davis but maybe not for KAT based purely on durability

But if they can't build around Davis how are they going to build around anything else that's why I dot understand it from the Pelicans side

Well building around one player when you don't have the ability to acquire players is clearly the issue.
Making a trade that would enable to acquire multiple players of potential would enable you to not necessarily need to build around a player but rather develop the players you have.

I don't agree that Davis is a once in a generation player tbh. LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, Shaq, Wilt these are once in a generation players, I don't have him in that company.
I don't doubt he has the talent but like I said a trade like this comes down to durability. If Davis can play more games than any year previously this year Anand next year then you're all right the Pelicans are probably the losers but if not then I think they would do ok.
Teams don't necessarily have to win and lose in major trades. Take Wiggins/Love I don't see a loser in that trade but more an addressing of needs.

LuckyLloyd

http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!/

Some interesting stats

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!/

Some interesting stats

What's really interesting about that is how much the Clippers feature. Thanks for posting, interesting reading.

ButtersSuki

brady23 wrote: »

Well building around one player when you don't have the ability to acquire players is clearly the issue.
Making a trade that would enable to acquire multiple players of potential would enable you to not necessarily need to build around a player but rather develop the players you have.

I don't agree that Davis is a once in a generation player tbh. LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, Shaq, Wilt these are once in a generation players, I don't have him in that company.
I don't doubt he has the talent but like I said a trade like this comes down to durability. If Davis can play more games than any year previously this year Anand next year then you're all right the Pelicans are probably the losers but if not then I think they would do ok.
Teams don't necessarily have to win and lose in major trades. Take Wiggins/Love I don't see a loser in that trade but more an addressing of needs.

I can see your point(s). Re. injuries, he hasn't been injury free by any means but they shut him down last year. Last year he took a step back IMO, from the highs of 14-15, and I did think Boogie had legitimately overtaken him. This year he's come out of the blocks in that crazy elite level again and it's hard to argue against him being the best big on the court right now (incl. Boogie and KAT).

He's in a very bad situation there in NO. He's signed until 2022 so you'd have to imagine he/his agents are applying LeBron-like pressure behind the scenes re. supporting talent.

I agree with you on that both teams don't have to "win" in a trade per se, but equally you can't be seen to "lose" dramatically either.

Unfort. for NO, I see the likely scenario being he stays until this contract ends and then walks, a la Lebron to Miami.

brady23

I'm heading to watch the Stockton play next week. Yeah, David Stockton for the NZ breakers.
He's actually John's son and he has had 22 assists in a game before, pretty much the same guy.

brady23

Espn Insider just put this up


Kevin Pelton: Chad, the 2014 NBA draft discussion was dominated by one question: Andrew Wiggins or Jabari Parker? Two-plus years later, as both players are progressing toward making good on the potential they showed as college freshmen, the question still remains relevant.

So, with all due respect to the other elite prospects from 2014 (Joel Embiid, whose return to health we discussed last week), let's revisit that debate now.

Who has more star potential?


Pre-draft expectations

Pelton: First off, to set the stage, let's go back to that draft. What did scouts like about Parker and Wiggins, what questions did they have, and what ultimately led the Cleveland Cavaliers to take Wiggins over Parker before subsequently trading him to the Minnesota Timberwolves as the centerpiece of the package for All-Star Kevin Love?

Ford: Parker started his high school career as the No. 1 player in his class. He received considerable hype as a high school freshman with a number of media outlets and scouts wondering whether he was the next big NBA superstar. However, a foot injury suffered over the summer before his senior season, combined with the rise of Wiggins -- who reclassified from the high school class of 2014 to 2013 -- helped Wiggins leapfrog Parker.

While Parker had the superior offensive basketball skills, Wiggins' elite athleticism and ability to defend multiple positions really intrigued scouts. Parker's lack of elite explosiveness and questions about whom he'd guard in the NBA were his main weaknesses. For Wiggins, the concerns primarily centered on his shooting and some passivity offensively at Kansas.

By draft night, virtually every team in the league had settled on Wiggins as the top pick. Upside matters at the top, and most teams felt his ceiling would be higher than Parker's, although it should be noted that, had Embiid not been injured in a pre-draft workout, he likely would've been the No. 1 pick.

There was at least one team that wasn't on the "Wiggins for No. 1" bandwagon, though. Sources on the Milwaukee Bucks told me before the draft that they preferred Parker to Wiggins. The Bucks felt that he had a stronger work ethic and greater leadership skills than Wiggins. They also felt that he'd be the superior offensive player, a bigger need for them at the time. Had the Bucks had the No. 1 pick, I think Parker would've been the choice.

Before the draft, which player measured out statistically as the better prospect, Kevin?

Pelton: Parker had the substantially better WARP projection by virtue of his superior scoring. Parker used a higher percentage of Duke's plays (32.7 percent) than Wiggins did at Kansas (26.3) and was equally efficient as a scorer. Yet I put Wiggins higher in my subjective draft rankings -- albeit both behind Dante Exum and Marcus Smart, who had the best WARP projection in the draft -- because of his wing defense and concerns about Parker's defense in the pros.

That's maybe an interesting place to turn the discussion to where the scouting reports and statistical projections have been right and wrong about these two players, since Wiggins has lived up to scouts' expectations as a scorer but has yet to do so at the defensive end.

How do they stack up now?

Ford: I actually think Wiggins has exceeded scouts' expectations as a scorer. Remember, the knock from the media and from scouts was that Wiggins was too passive offensively. He wasn't selfish or aggressive enough. At the age of 21 he's already a top-10 scorer in the league (averaging 26.3 points per game) and just hung a career-high 47 points on the Lakers on Sunday night. Even more surprising, Wiggins is shooting a red-hot 55 percent from 3.

Those numbers aren't going to stay that high, and we're dealing with a small sample size this season, but I don't think there's any question about his scoring ability or offensive aggressiveness.

I do think Wiggins has been a disappointment in all the other areas where we expected him to shine, especially on defense. His real plus-minus (RPM) ranking last season defensively was a major disappointment. He showed the physical tools and the willingness to defend at Kansas.

What's the issue, Kevin?

Pelton: Yeah, it's safe to say Wiggins' shooting is going to regress. The confidence interval on a 31-shot sample like Wiggins currently has from 3 is about 18 percent in either direction. (Which, I suppose, does mean he could really be a 70 percent shooter. But probably not.)

Beyond that, Wiggins has kept increasing his usage rate, which now ranks 14th in the league at 30.8 percent. He's also drawing more fouls than ever, improving what has probably been his best NBA skill.

Yet you're right that Wiggins hasn't yet shown improvement this season in the nonscoring areas of his game. Given his athleticism, it's hard to understand why Wiggins gets so few steals (four this season), blocks (four) and rebounds (his defensive rebound percentage is below average for a guard, let alone a player spending so much time at small forward).

Last season, Timberwolves color analyst Jim Petersen pointed out that too often Wiggins wasn't in a defensive stance and ready to make a play off the ball, which explained the discrepancy between his mostly good one-on-one defense and his poor off-ball defense.

I hoped Tom Thibodeau's arrival would force Wiggins into better defensive habits. So far that doesn't seem to be the case. Minnesota's defensive rating ranks 22nd in the league, and the Timberwolves are allowing 3.2 fewer points per 100 possessions with Wiggins on the bench, per NBA.com/Stats. That number is likely to fluctuate, but it matches up with what Wiggins' individual stats are telling us.

What have you seen this season from Parker?

Ford: He's having the best season of his career, but I think he has been a less dominant offensive player than the Bucks had hoped. He's a bit caught between positions, and that shows on both ends of the floor. As a wing, he's not quite the shooter or ball creator Milwaukee needs. As a 4, he has proved to be a mismatch problem offensively but a liability as a rebounder and defender.

The fact that Giannis Antetokounmpo has the ball in his hands so much has limited what Parker does a little, I think. I don't know whether that will be a permanent problem. They're both young and will continue to figure out how to play together, but he has looked more dominant when Matthew Dellavedova runs the point.

Who has more potential?

Ford: Parker has been good. Maybe he'll be very good. But I'm not sure I see a superstar yet in him the way I still do with Wiggins.

What do you think, Kevin?

Pelton: I'm a little more optimistic than you are. Parker has basically carried over what he did in the second half of last season, and while most people took that as a floor, given he was coming off ACL surgery, that wasn't a guarantee.

Parker has even improved his usage a little, and at 26.3 percent he's not far behind where Wiggins was last season (27.2). We're also seeing Parker take and make more 3s -- eight in nine games after he made just nine last season (all of them after the All-Star break) -- which is important for his development at either forward position.

I'm also more hopeful for the Antetokounmpo-Parker frontcourt, which has outscored opponents playing together since Milwaukee put the ball in Antetokounmpo's hands after last season's All-Star break. Antetokounmpo's size and athleticism help counter some of Parker's defensive limitations, and that pairing could get even better as Parker continues to improve his shooting.

Based on your comments, I'm guessing that in the final analysis your decision between Parker and Wiggins is pretty easy?


Ford: I wouldn't say it's easy. Parker is looking as if he has the potential to be an All-Star someday. But I still see Wiggins as having a higher ceiling and more upside, assuming that at some point he brings his considerable athletic talents to the boards and the defensive end -- something I do think Thibs will eventually demand and get from him.

If they both hit their ceiling, I still think Wiggins is the best prospect. You still feeling Jabari?

Pelton: No, I'm going Wiggins, too. I feel the same way about the chances of Thibodeau eventually getting more out of him defensively.

And even if Wiggins doesn't broaden out his game, I think he's more on the Carmelo Anthony career path than the DeMar DeRozan or Rudy Gay comps thrown out by statistical analysts. So I'd take my chances with Wiggins.