Cannabis/Hemp Products/Medicinal/Legal

jh79

Seanachai wrote: »

They've made herbs I used to order online illegal here through EU law in the last few years, I got benefit from them but they were banned for the same lack of evidence reason. With that in mind it's not surprising that they are not just going to cave in to the argument about it's long history as a traditional medicine. If they're not going to legalise fully they will have to have rigorous scientific proof of efficacy as opposed to anecdotal evidence.

Herbal remedies don't have to prove they work so possibly it was due to an adverse effect?

drunkmonkey

ScumLord wrote: »

Here in Europe we seem to be trying to identify if it is medicine and how we can introduce it to the traditional medical industry.

I don't know if the European medical industry will ever accept cannabis, so we'll be stuck in limbo for another decade.

This is what I've been saying, were mad trying to get it legalised on the basis it's a medicine it's not going to happen. Yet that's the route Gino, Vera and all the other medicinal cannabis advocates are trying to force the government down. They are at nothing and will achieve very little, they couldn't have made it easier for the government to sideline the whole debate for another government to deal with.
The very first thing that needs to happen is it is no longer against the law to grow and can be used for herbal medicines, recreation, textile, fuel etc. This is 100% a human rights issue and not a medical issue.

drunkmonkey

jh79 wrote: »

Because that is the lowest form of evidence, old wives tales is not what i want my doctor to be basing decisions on.

Chinese medicine is old wives tails? All their medicinal cannabis patents pure fantasy as well I suppose.

This isn't about you though and your GMP only criteria for medicine. This is about people that need something right now that does work for some people that can be grown for free. Yet we're denying the access out of ignorance.
It's not going to work for everyone but at the very least don't make anyone a criminal for trying.

ohnonotgmail

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Chinese medicine is old wives tails? All their medicinal cannabis patents pure fantasy as well I suppose.

This isn't about you though and your GMP only criteria for medicine. This is about people that need something right now that does work for some people that can be grown for free. Yet we're denying the access out of ignorance.
It's not going to work for everyone but at the very least don't make anyone a criminal for trying.

in fairness just because it is old doesnt make it right. If you make medical claims about a product you need to be able to back them up.

scamalert

drunkmonkey wrote: »

This is what I've been saying, were mad trying to get it legalised on the basis it's a medicine it's not going to happen. Yet that's the route Gino, Vera and all the other medicinal cannabis advocates are trying to force the government down. They are at nothing and will achieve very little, they couldn't have made it easier for the government to sideline the whole debate for another government to deal with.
The very first thing that needs to happen is it is no longer against the law to grow and can be used for herbal medicines, recreation, textile, fuel etc. This is 100% a human rights issue and not a medical issue.

So if that's the issue why we all argue here, about pointless debates where it could help someone and take 10-20 years at such rate to prove anything,if it was legal then any patient would be able to judge that for themselves if they seen it as medicine,and use it as whatever they would want to call it stoned medicine or supplement-whatever word makes everyone happy to pass it onto market.

but other poster is right its basically government and every half to decade there's proposition to make it somewhat legal or decriminalized but few no votes and its passed onto next generation of politicians who will find excuses why not and pass it onto next, in other words sitting and doing nothing think pays same amount as would be working head on onto tackling implementation when being government official.

drunkmonkey

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

in fairness just because it is old doesnt make it right. If you make medical claims about a product you need to be able to back them up.

They can be backed up, would you agree with the statement cannabis can give you the munchies! or is it an old wives tail?

If you agree it can well then you should also agree that it may help some people with Dravets Syndrome based on the experience of some people with the illness. We don't need to spend 10 years and 300 million proving cannabis can help people with eating disorders due to things like cancer, we know it works just let them grow it and stop all this profiteering by pharma.

drunkmonkey

scamalert wrote: »

if it was legal then any patient would be able to judge that for themselves if they seen it as medicine,and use it as whatever they would want to call it stoned medicine or supplement-whatever word makes everyone happy to pass it onto market.

Hit the nail on the head there, just legalise it and the patients themselves will decide whether it's a product suitable for them or not.

ohnonotgmail

drunkmonkey wrote: »

They can be backed up, would you agree with the statement cannabis can give you the munchies! or is it an old wives tail?

If you agree it can well then you should also agree that it may help some people with Dravets Syndrome based on the experience of some people with the illness. We don't need to spend 10 years and 300 million proving cannabis can help people with eating disorders due to things like cancer, we know it works just let them grow it and stop all this profiteering by pharma.

funnily enough it doesnt It normally makes me fall asleep.

I think at the very least we need to decriminalise it. Follow the dutch model. It seems to work for them. But lets just be clear. This talk of big pharma profiteering is nonsense. If it was decriminalised then somebody would be making big profits from it. Whether that is a pharma company or not is irrelevant.

jh79

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Chinese medicine is old wives tails? All their medicinal cannabis patents pure fantasy as well I suppose.

This isn't about you though and your GMP only criteria for medicine. This is about people that need something right now that does work for some people that can be grown for free. Yet we're denying the access out of ignorance.
It's not going to work for everyone but at the very least don't make anyone a criminal for trying.

Chinese herbal remedies are "old wives tails". It is antedocal evidence passed from generation to generation.

If clinical trials show a benefit then it is an "old wives tale" that happwns to be true.

Patents have nothing to do with effectiveness.


PS. Be careful with chinese medicine especially if importing form the US. Herbs in the US do not require any testing at all. The herbs themselves are probably ok but contamination is an issue.

xckjoo

drunkmonkey wrote: »

They can be backed up, would you agree with the statement cannabis can give you the munchies! or is it an old wives tail?

If you agree it can well then you should also agree that it may help some people with Dravets Syndrome based on the experience of some people with the illness. We don't need to spend 10 years and 300 million proving cannabis can help people with eating disorders due to things like cancer, we know it works just let them grow it and stop all this profiteering by pharma.

Um. No. It can cause it but not always. It depends on the strain, person, etc.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

funnily enough it doesnt It normally makes me fall asleep.

I think at the very least we need to decriminalise it. Follow the dutch model. It seems to work for them. But lets just be clear. This talk of big pharma profiteering is nonsense. If it was decriminalised then somebody would be making big profits from it. Whether that is a pharma company or not is irrelevant.

The dutch model isn't as good as people think. The industry is still run by criminal gangs due to a number of issues caused by the legal grey area it sits in.

drunkmonkey

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

funnily enough it doesnt It normally makes me fall asleep.

.

There you go, we know it makes you sleep, might have some use for insominacs.

It is about profit though and controlling supply, as its baically a free crop that's the major problem. If you look at somewhere like North Korea where is grows wild and is sold to tourists at roughly €4 per kilo. It shows the value of it here if deregulated. It had no monetary value, that's a headache for politicians and pharma.

ohnonotgmail

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There you go, we know it makes you sleep, might have some use for insominacs.

It is about profit though and controlling supply, as its baically a free crop that's the major problem. If you look at somewhere like North Korea where is grows wild and is sold to tourists at roughly €4 per kilo. It shows the value of it here if deregulated. It had no monetary value, that's a headache for politicians and pharma.

every plant grown commercially has a monetary value. The price in North Korea isn't really relevant in the rest of the world.

jh79

drunkmonkey wrote: »

They can be backed up, would you agree with the statement cannabis can give you the munchies! or is it an old wives tail?

If you agree it can well then you should also agree that it may help some people with Dravets Syndrome based on the experience of some people with the illness. We don't need to spend 10 years and 300 million proving cannabis can help people with eating disorders due to things like cancer, we know it works just let them grow it and stop all this profiteering by pharma.

Didn't studies find no benefit re weight gain for aids patients? We wouldn't of known the munchies only work in healthy people without the clinical trial.

ohnonotgmail

xckjoo wrote: »

Um. No. It can cause it but not always. It depends on the strain, person, etc.



The dutch model isn't as good as people think. The industry is still run by criminal gangs due to a number of issues caused by the legal grey area it sits in.

every profitable business attracts a criminal element. I can go into a coffee shop in amsterdam and buy some marijuana in comfort and safety. So from a user perspective it works.

xckjoo

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

every profitable business attracts a criminal element. I can go into a coffee shop in amsterdam and buy some marijuana in comfort and safety. So from a user perspective it works.

As long as it's someone elses problem right?

ohnonotgmail

xckjoo wrote: »

As long as it's someone elses problem right?

criminality is the responsibility of the police. There is significant criminality associated with the cannabis situation. Decriminalising it wont make that worse.

Jayop

jh79 wrote: »

Snake oil is based on anecdotal evidence too and really it depends on what the claim is and how the claim is worded.

It was, but luckily for me I have the testimony of people I know and trust and I have my own eyes. Seeing someone with parkinsons visibly stop shaking and regain the ability to speak more cohesively in front of me.. A little bit different from a traveling salesman trying to screw people over for money 60+ years ago.

drunkmonkey

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

every plant grown commercially has a monetary value. The price in North Korea isn't really relevant in the rest of the world.

I'm using it as an example of where it's grown freely without regulation. It's classed as an oil seed plant. It's 4 Euro per kilo in the wild, can't see it having much more of a value here if re-classified. What's the Garda value at the moment here about €20,000 a kilo.
All everyone is trying to do is make money when that's not the solution.

drunkmonkey

jh79 wrote: »

Didn't studies find no benefit re weight gain for aids patients? We wouldn't of known the munchies only work in healthy people without the clinical trial.

Stall the digger there now for a minute, there's a study that says all cannabis only gives heathy people the munchies?

ohnonotgmail

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm using it as an example of where it's grown freely without regulation. It's classed as an oil seed plant. It's 4 Euro per kilo in the wild, can't see it having much more of a value here if re-classified. What's the Garda value at the moment here about €20,000 a kilo.
All everyone is trying to do is make money when that's not the solution.

i wouldnt expect coffee shops sell weed that they found growing by the side of the road. Its value is whatever it costs to grow + a profit margin. Not everybody could be bothered with growing their own. and even that has a cost associated with it.

jh79

Jayop wrote: »

It was, but luckily for me I have the testimony of people I know and trust and I have my own eyes. Seeing someone with parkinsons visibly stop shaking and regain the ability to speak more cohesively in front of me.. A little bit different from a traveling salesman trying to screw people over for money 60+ years ago.

Which is great for that person.

Take CBD oil that GW have, without their clinical trial we wouldn't know it worked in about 40% of patients.

Do you not think that is useful information?

Jayop

Yeah it is. And for a a fraction of that money I could give 100 people with parkinsons a spliff and see what percentage it helps.

jh79

Jayop wrote: »

Yeah it is. And for a a fraction of that money I could give 100 people with parkinsons a spliff and see what percentage it helps.

Which still wouldn't be proof it works better than a placebo.

But sure if they try everything else first there is no harm in giving it a go. But it would be a shot in the dark.

Jayop

jh79 wrote: »

Which still wouldn't be proof it works better than a placebo.

But surw if they tey everyrhing else first there us no harm in giving it a go. But it would be a shot in the dark.

I don't think I ever noticed you having typos before. You stoned?

jh79

Jayop wrote: »

I don't think I ever noticed you having typos before. You stoned?

I type better when i'm stoned.

evolving_doors

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Stall the digger there now for a minute, there's a study that says all cannabis only gives heathy people the munchies?

There's THCV also which is supposed to be an appetite suppressant.

evolving_doors

jh79 wrote: »

I type better when i'm stoned.

Maybe if it could be prescribed as a literary aid.

Jayop

I actually know major stones who would take the position jh has done in an argument and would argue like their life depended on it just for the craic, with a major doob hanging from their mouth.

jh79

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Maybe if it could be prescribed as a literary aid.

Antedocal evidence it improves brain function right there.

jh79

Jayop wrote: »

I actually know major stones who would take the position jh has done in an argument and would argue like their life depended on it just for the craic, with a major doob hanging from their mouth.

You're not saying a smoker has to believe in medical marijuana ?

Sure stoned or sober the studies are still the same.