The EPL - beginning of the end ?

lawred2

RoboKlopp wrote: »

If you just want entertaining games week in week out you're probably not a massive fan anyway.

Football doesn't work like that. There will be plenty of dull matches throughout the season.

Watching dull Everton matches is easy... I do that all the time

Watching a dull Swansea West Brom match when as an adult I've got a million other things to be doing would not be a good use of my time.

K-9

zerks wrote: »

An interesting comment was made on Off The Ball, Sky are obliged to show even the smaller games ala last Sunday.They'll get them out of the way early in the season which leaves them the pick of the teams challenging for the title at the business end of the season.
As somebody said earlier in the thread,the focus seems to be on how many km's players run opposed to actually playing football.No matter how much you run,the ball will always move faster than you.Get the focus back to playing football rather than worrying about stopping the opposition and people will return to watching the game.

If the point of sprint and pressing stats is how good are teams at getting the ball back, Liverpool, City and Spurs do it very effectively when at their best. The first half of Liverpool vs. Hull an example, Hull only completed 3 passes in the attacking half of the pitch because when Liverpool lost the ball, they pressed brilliantly which got them the ball back.

Barcelona at their peak combined both, excellent in possession and absolute demons at getting the ball back when they lost it.

Ould Gilesy made it simple, there will be half the match or so when you don't have the ball so you need to be good at getting the ball back!

SantryRed

Ironically enough, this game tonight has been entertaining :pac:

TheDoc

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

What exactly would you expect from fans in Ireland.

They're never going to have the same feeling for a team as fans who come from the city the team is based in.

And here we go with this ****

Dirty Dingus McGee

TheDoc wrote: »

And here we go with this ****

Why.

It's completely true for the vast majority of fans of premier league teams from ireland. I'm just pointing it that they shouldn't be criticized for their interest waning at times.

764dak

Where I'm from you get 3 EPL games with basic cable plus a Goal Rush channel. Then you can get a Premier League package for less than 10 a month (includes MUTV and Chelsea TV).

Irish_rat

A good thread. I haven't watched much of the premier league this season mainly due to other commitments but most of the games I've seen so far have been utter dross.

Had a chance Saturday to have catch every match that was on sky sports. United-Arsenal was pure puck and the Liverpool game was painful.

Then I watched Real Madrid vs Atletico. Absolutely sublime, the difference in quality is massive.

batistuta9

batistuta9 wrote: »

that article in the mail is a bit misleading, he's comparing a subscription service to the public service/freeview channels in the UK, of course they're going to have far more viewers.

the 19% drop, nobody knows what this drop is on like some other poster said.
sky now have the saturday lunchtime slot, which is the worst for viewing figures and the more matches you show the harder it's to keep your average anyway.

then what kind of teams have they shown? there's a lot of teams who'd have no really appeal outside their region - stoke, wba, bournmouth, burnley - to the more casual viewers. obviously the name of the team doesn't determine the quality of the game but that's the way it is.
seen on digital spy, red monday :pac: pulled in the biggest aducience of the season, 2.7m avg. 3.1 peak, second was the manchester derby 1.7m
https://twitter.com/SB_Intelligence

i'd agree with a lot of the opinions on the thread though, the older people get or the more life gets in the way the less time will spend on football, it stops becoming the obsession it once was.
practically anyone who can use a computer can watch any game they want, in pretty decent quality especially if you're a supporter of a big club.

but there's still a massive appetite for football, look at west ham selling out the new stadium, spurs selling out wembley for the CL & they'll do the same in the new whl. newcastle had the 4th highest attendance in europe a week or two ago

pricing structures could do with tweaking but for the PL, the domestic rights are the goose that laid the golden egg, they've no need to go online in the UK yet. BT getting involved has helped that, PL will keep releasing more games to them to keep it driving up. you can already watch any PL match online in loads of countries, the overseas tv deals is where they can really make more money

apparently they've sold rights - 19/20 to 21/22 - in china for £564 million. about 12 times the existing deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/nov/18/english-premier-league-sells-china-tv-rights-for-564m-report-claims

In taking the unusual step of negotiating a new three-year deal during the first year of the current three-year cycle in both China and the US, the Premier League has already guaranteed $1.2bn in income for its next rights period from 2019-20 to 2021-22.

The unprecedented spending spree in China has led to the Premier League’s biggest overseas deal, topping the $500m that NBC agreed to pay to extend its contract to show the league in the US from 2019-20 to 2021-22.

Richard Hillman

More ridiculousness today. Nobody is allowed to show the 3pm game in the UK despite the 3pm rule not being applicable.

Then there is the persistent agenda of putting the worst round of games on Stephens Day. This happens pretty much every year.

Muahahaha

Agreed. When I looked at the fixture list earlier today I was completely underwhelmed. No big hitters playing each other at all.

Fr Tod Umptious

Richard Hillman wrote: »

More ridiculousness today. Nobody is allowed to show the 3pm game in the UK despite the 3pm rule not being applicable.

Then there is the persistent agenda of putting the worst round of games on Stephens Day. This happens pretty much every year.

Why would the 3pm rule not be applicable today ?

The Boxing Day fixture list is as traditional as any Saturday, thus I'd expect it too to be written into the 3pm blackout regulations.

dundalkfc10

Richard Hillman wrote: »

More ridiculousness today. Nobody is allowed to show the 3pm game in the UK despite the 3pm rule not being applicable.

Then there is the persistent agenda of putting the worst round of games on Stephens Day. This happens pretty much every year.

Maybe to get fans to go to games!

mikeym

Ridiculous :mad::mad:

The only way Irish football fans could watch the 3pm games was to watch streams even if they paid for BT and Sky.

But if you live in America you can watch all the matches on NBC no problem and it doesn't cost a fortune.

dundalkfc10

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Maybe to get fans to go to games!

What is this witchcraft you speak of??

Unearthly

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Why would the 3pm rule not be applicable today ?

The Boxing Day fixture list is as traditional as any Saturday, thus I'd expect it too to be written into the 3pm blackout regulations.

I remember one year BT Sport showed a 3pm game on the 26th.

Here we go. 2 years ago. Last year the 26th was a Saturday so I assumed they would go back to airing a 3pm game this year


http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-tv-schedule-sky-sports-and-bt-sport-announce-live-games-for-christmas-period-9779774.html

Andersonisgod

Could we mention that so far (Spurs have yet to play) the top 6 have all won in this gameweek. 4 of the 5 by a very comfortable margin. Anyone else notice that this is ine of those things that will be just kinda whitewashed but if it happened in another league it'd be used as a stick to beat that league.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Could we mention that so far (Spurs have yet to play) the top 6 have all won in this gameweek. 4 of the 5 by a very comfortable margin. Anyone else notice that this is ine of those things that will be just kinda whitewashed but if it happened in another league it'd be used as a stick to beat that league.

There's a massive gap between the top 6 and the rest this season as the teams at the top have improved.

The gap was smaller over the last few season because the teams at the top had declined a decent bit.

Just about halfway through the season now and there is a 6 point gap between 6th and 7th, I'd expect that to be replicated across the second half of the season and there be over 10 points between 6th and 7th.

Andersonisgod

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

There's a massive gap between the top 6 and the rest this season as the teams at the top have improved.

The gap was smaller over the last few season because the teams at the top had declined a decent bit.

Just about halfway through the season now and there is a 6 point gap between 6th and 7th, I'd expect that to be replicated across the second half of the season and there be over 10 points between 6th and 7th.

I feel like we are on the verge of becoming friends, I'm both terrified abd wildly excited by that prospect.

niallo27

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Could we mention that so far (Spurs have yet to play) the top 6 have all won in this gameweek. 4 of the 5 by a very comfortable margin. Anyone else notice that this is ine of those things that will be just kinda whitewashed but if it happened in another league it'd be used as a stick to beat that league.

Any league that has 6 teams competing near the top makes for a very exciting league. I don't think this would happen in Spain Italy or Germany in the present day.

ArmaniJeanss

Muahahaha wrote: »

Agreed. When I looked at the fixture list earlier today I was completely underwhelmed. No big hitters playing each other at all.

Been like that for decades.
Always presumed it was a police thing as they want to have as peaceful a Boxing Day as possible and are probably at minimum levels of staffing, so I think the order to the fixture compiler is no High Category games and to minimize travel as much as possible* but with no derbys
e.g., as long as I can remember Arsenal or Spurs would play a south coast team like Southampton or Portsmouth on this matchday, and now that Bournemouth are in the EPL they seem to get a London team also.

(* obviously little can be done with the geographical outliers like Sunderland or Swansea)

alchemist33

niallo27 wrote: »

Any league that has 6 teams competing near the top makes for a very exciting league. I don't think this would happen in Spain Italy or Germany in the present day.

Indeed, this is a lot better than the top three, top two or even top one of some leagues.

Dirty Dingus McGee

niallo27 wrote: »

Any league that has 6 teams competing near the top makes for a very exciting league. I don't think this would happen in Spain Italy or Germany in the present day.

13 points between the top 6 in England
12 points between the top 6 in Germany
9 points between the top 6 in Spain
14 points between the top 6 in France
10 points between the top 6 in Italy.

So either all the leagues are competitive or all the leagues are un-competitive.

Which is it?

lawred2

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Could we mention that so far (Spurs have yet to play) the top 6 have all won in this gameweek. 4 of the 5 by a very comfortable margin. Anyone else notice that this is ine of those things that will be just kinda whitewashed but if it happened in another league it'd be used as a stick to beat that league.

Not sure that that point holds much water

La Liga has forever been nothing but a two team league with the odd third wheel. Germany not that much better. France is currently a one team league. Italy is much the same right now due to the slide of the Milan sides..

A top six sounds like a marketable prospect in that context.

However as marketable as it may sound.. I fear a case of the emperor having no clothes because Chelsea apart I find most games unwatchable.

Berserker

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

There's a massive gap between the top 6 and the rest this season as the teams at the top have improved.

I think the top six teams have remained at the same level and the rest have got worse. CL performance is a good yardstick. I think that the PL sides will all fail to make it to the next round of the CL this season. Watched the Liverpool game today and you could see how it was going to play out off a mile off. The bottom half of the PL and the top ten in the Championship are pretty similar, in my opinion. That gap is closing.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Berserker wrote: »

I think the top six teams have remained at the same level and the rest have got worse. CL performance is a good yardstick. I think that the PL sides will all fail to make it to the next round of the CL this season. Watched the Liverpool game today and you could see how it was going to play out off a mile off. The bottom half of the PL and the top ten in the Championship are pretty similar, in my opinion. That gap is closing.

I do think the top teams are better this year than they were last season (which was a truly dreadful season quality wise at the top) and maybe the season before but you are right they are nowhere close to when the league was at it's peak between about 2005-2010.

enzo roco

Berserker wrote: »

I think the top six teams have remained at the same level and the rest have got worse. CL performance is a good yardstick. I think that the PL sides will all fail to make it to the next round of the CL this season. Watched the Liverpool game today and you could see how it was going to play out off a mile off. The bottom half of the PL and the top ten in the Championship are pretty similar, in my opinion. That gap is closing.

I disagree.
"I think the top six teams have remained at the same level and the rest have got worse". Since when, since the start of the season??
But Chelsea have improved a lot, same with liverpool.
Last season, Liverpool were 8th, chelsea were 10th, leicester were first.
And look over the last 5 years, the top six are mostly the same right now, but newcastle, everton and southampton get in there, you cannot predict it all.
Also you say, You saw how the liverpool match would play out a mile off. Read the match thread before the second half...

Richard Hillman

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Why would the 3pm rule not be applicable today ?

The Boxing Day fixture list is as traditional as any Saturday, thus I'd expect it too to be written into the 3pm blackout regulations.

Soccer Saturday were showing the Championship Goals as they happened. The normal blackout rules are so strict that when they do the regular Soccer Saturday reports at the ground they are not even allowed show part of the pitch.

greendom

lawred2 wrote: »

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Could we mention that so far (Spurs have yet to play) the top 6 have all won in this gameweek. 4 of the 5 by a very comfortable margin. Anyone else notice that this is ine of those things that will be just kinda whitewashed but if it happened in another league it'd be used as a stick to beat that league.

Not sure that that point holds much water

La Liga has forever been nothing but a two team league with the odd third wheel. Germany not that much better. France is currently a one team league.[\B] Italy is much the same right now due to the slide of the Milan sides..

A top six sounds like a marketable prospect in that context.

However as marketable as it may sound.. I fear a case of the emperor having no clothes because Chelsea apart I find most games unwatchable.

Not arguing with your point in the main but you might want to check out the Ligue 1 table. 2 teams currently "doing a Leicester" over there.

Richard Hillman

greendom wrote: »

Not arguing with your point in the main but you might want to check out the Ligue 1 table. 2 teams currently "doing a Leicester" over there.

Montpellier won the league a couple of years ago too

lawred2

greendom wrote: »

Not arguing with your point in the main but you might want to check out the Ligue 1 table. 2 teams currently "doing a Leicester" over there.

Fair point.. Although let's look at that again come May..

thebaz

my team is in the Premiership - but the real action seams in the league below - miss BBC Championship show - the league is so competitive , plus the players are not on the obscene wages - 41 thousand at Villa , and 52 at Newcastle yesterday - is there a league in Europe where the second tier are pulling in those sort of crowds ? - admit those are freaks but many such as Leeds, Forest , Brighton are pulling in 20 to 30 thousand gates

niallo27

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

13 points between the top 6 in England
12 points between the top 6 in Germany
9 points between the top 6 in Spain
14 points between the top 6 in France
10 points between the top 6 in Italy.

So either all the leagues are competitive or all the leagues are un-competitive.

Which is it?

There have been a few extra games played in the premier league. Chelsea's run has skewed the points difference a good bit. We all know what will happen in the other leagues though no point in saying we don't know the winners already

Dirty Dingus McGee

thebaz wrote: »

my team is in the Premiership - but the real action seams in the league below - miss BBC Championship show - the league is so competitive , plus the players are not on the obscene wages - 41 thousand at Villa , and 52 at Newcastle yesterday - is there a league in Europe where the second tier are pulling in those sort of crowds ? - admit those are freaks but many such as Leeds, Forest , Brighton are pulling in 20 to 30 thousand gates

Bundesliga 2 Average attendance this season is 21,039
EFL Championship Average attendance this season is 19,523

Highest attendance for a match this season is 60,000 and 6 of the 18 clubs have ground with capacities greater than 49,000.

Dirty Dingus McGee

niallo27 wrote: »

There have been a few extra games played in the premier league. Chelsea's run has skewed the points difference a good bit. We all know what will happen in the other leagues though no point in saying we don't know the winners already

And we don't know the premier league winners already?

Some people just can't bare for there ideas about the premier league to be correctly contradicted.

The premier league has a guise of competitiveness in the years when the quality dips and you don't have a really top class team in it.You take out the outstanding teams out of Spain,Germany and Italy and those leagues would be really topsy turvy every year but those leagues have outstanding teams in them who make the opposition look worse than they really are.

niallo27

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

And we don't know the premier league winners already?

Some people just can't bare for there ideas about the premier league to be correctly contradicted.

The premier league has a guise of competitiveness in the years when the quality dips and you don't have a really top class team in it.You take out the outstanding teams out of Spain,Germany and Italy and those leagues would be really topsy turvy every year but those leagues have outstanding teams in them who make the opposition look worse than they really are.

Which was my original point that Germany Spain and Italy are not competitive. Do we know the premier league winners. There is every chance Chelsea will be caught.

Richard Hillman

niallo27 wrote: »

Which was my original point that Germany Spain and Italy are not competitive. Do we know the premier league winners. There is every chance Chelsea will be caught.

Very unlikely. Chelsea are on average to hit 98 points if they win their next game.

If Chelsea win their next game, they only need about 12 wins and a pair of draws out of 19 games to get to 87 points. City need 16 wins out of 20 to get to 87. Liverpool a little bit less.

Liverpool v City this week is essentially a title eliminator, should Chelsea beat Stoke.

niallo27

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Very unlikely. Chelsea are on average to hit 98 points if they win their next game.

If Chelsea win their next game, they only need about 12 wins and a pair of draws out of 19 games to get to 87 points. City need 16 wins out of 20 to get to 87. Liverpool a little bit less.

Liverpool v City this week is essentially a title eliminator, should Chelsea beat Stoke.

It's only 6 points and they still have to come to Anfield and go to old Trafford. They are in a strong position but it's far from over.

764dak

I've seen teams overcome bigger leads than Chelsea's. With fewer games as well. I like Bundesliga and Serie A as well. I like Real Madrid games sometimes.

LuckyLloyd

Internal competitiveness within a league depends on a myriad of factors. The benchmark for how good the league is relative to the rest of Europe is European competition of course. Over recent seasons, the evidence is the Premiership is down the pecking order in that regard.

764dak

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Internal competitiveness within a league depends on a myriad of factors. The benchmark for how good the league is relative to the rest of Europe is European competition of course. Over recent seasons, the evidence is the Premiership is down the pecking order in that regard.

But what if certain teams (like Bayer or Arsenal) are just happy to qualify for the knockout stages of Champions League?

How do you know if the Belarussian league is better than the Swedish league if one has a better top team?

LuckyLloyd

764dak wrote: »

But what if certain teams (like Bayer or Arsenal) are just happy to qualify for the knockout stages of Champions League?

How do you know if the Belarussian league is better than the Swedish league if one has a better top team?

I have no belief that Arsenal are trying anything less than their best in the knockout stages of the Champions League. Nothing in their team selection, statements from management / players suggest so. They just aren't good enough year in, year out to win the damn thing.

Context is everything. We can draw a comparison between La Liga and the EPL because they will have a similar number of clubs competing in both major competitions, and football is a major sport in each country woven into the fabric of their respective cultures, etc. The UEFA coefficients do the rest.

There was a period (2004 - 2009) where the EPL compared extremely favourably. Those days are gone.

764dak

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I have no belief that Arsenal are trying anything less than their best in the knockout stages of the Champions League. Nothing in their team selection, statements from management / players suggest so. They just aren't good enough year in, year out to win the damn thing.

Context is everything. We can draw a comparison between La Liga and the EPL because they will have a similar number of clubs competing in both major competitions, and football is a major sport in each country woven into the fabric of their respective cultures, etc. The UEFA coefficients do the rest.

There was a period (2004 - 2009) where the EPL compared extremely favourably. Those days are gone.

According to UEFA coefficients (last year) and historical European results Primeira Liga is a better league than Ligue 1. That says it all really.

LuckyLloyd

764dak wrote: »

According to UEFA coefficients (last year) and historical European results Primeira Liga is a better league than Ligue 1. That says it all really.

You're being obtuse to be honest. As I said, context is everything. There is a huge quality drop off between Portugal's biggest five clubs and the rest of its league. However, we can understand that simply from looking at average attendances. That said, those first five clubs are historically very competitive in European competition. Even Braga reached a Europa League final, and have battled to the group stages of the CL twice in recent memory.

But if you are trying to say that UEFA Coefficients and performance in that sphere is not a valid tool for comparing the relative strengths of the EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga and Seria A you are entitled to your opinion as it were, but I'll politely disagree.

Dirty Dingus McGee

764dak wrote: »

According to UEFA coefficients (last year) and historical European results Primeira Liga is a better league than Ligue 1. That says it all really.

Right now France is 5th and Portugal is 7th and considering that France have more teams left in Europe than Portugal they will probably increase that lead.

http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/