The pain in sourcing a used EV

McSmithy

I don't think there is anything more frustrating than trying to buy a Used Leaf. The ads will tell you if the car has an effing cup-holder before they will tell you the 2 most important things you want to know - whether it's a 24 or 30kW battery and whether its 3.3 or 6.6 charging. I'm guessing this is deliberate so they can flog the 24kW/3.3 chargers to unsuspecting buyers. Instead it's made this buyer want to walk away. I don't have hours to send emails to individual dealers/sellers asking these 2 key questions - the process should be as easy as buying an ICE but instead it's a complete turnoff.
Is there any representative group working to get the websites' ad formats updated?

Water John

Doubt if there are many 2nd hand 30Kwh with 6.6 charger. There not on the market long enough. Take it that any for sale are the 24Kwh with 3.3 unless otherwise stated.

isnottheword

@McSmithy : You're quite right - they should state whether 3.3 or 6.6kW on-board charger. In most cases, they don't know what they're selling. This can sometimes work out to your advantage. I bought one with 6.6kW once I established the car had this feature (dealer wasn't aware of it until I got him to check).

http://evbitz.uk/EVBitz.uk/T2_T1_Cables_-_1P_files/LEAF%20dual%207kwcahrger.jpg


You can send them that link and ask if car shows 'time to charge' in both 3 & 6kW charging on the dash display (if it does, then it's a 6.6kW charging model).


If you don't have the time for this, you will have to walk away from the task (it's going to take time to tease out) OR get someone to source one for you (there are guys that are involved in this - but obviously, they will have to add their margin). Lastly, you could put up a wanted ad in the classifieds section of speakev - stating exactly what spec you're looking for and see what comes back.


It goes without saying that if you're searching for a car with this feature, you should be searching the UK. It's difficult to get a deal on one searching UK listings - but in Ireland with the numbers so much smaller, it would be incredibly difficult.

There are a minority who advertise with the feature - have a look through this lot => http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price-asc&radius=1500&postcode=b783xy&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&make=NISSAN&model=LEAF&keywords=6.6kW

However, another pitfall to be aware of. Is the car 'flex' (battery leased) or battery owned? You need the latter. Most of them state it but not all of them.

As regards the 30kW, it's only been out in the last 12 months - so if you insist on 2nd hand 30kW, you really are narrowing down your search.

BoatMad

McSmithy wrote: »

I don't think there is anything more frustrating than trying to buy a Used Leaf. The ads will tell you if the car has an effing cup-holder before they will tell you the 2 most important things you want to know - whether it's a 24 or 30kW battery and whether its 3.3 or 6.6 charging. I'm guessing this is deliberate so they can flog the 24kW/3.3 chargers to unsuspecting buyers. Instead it's made this buyer want to walk away. I don't have hours to send emails to individual dealers/sellers asking these 2 key questions - the process should be as easy as buying an ICE but instead it's a complete turnoff.
Is there any representative group working to get the websites' ad formats updated?

part of the problem is that Nissan should have altered the badging

Nissan dealers mostly bought the 3.3 Kw to keep the list price as low as possible. I know my dealer actively encouraged people not to buy the 6.6 Kw because they can instead save this money and use the "Free" public chargers. What they really wanted was for people to buy the existing stock and not order a new model. It just so happens they do buy a few 6.6 Kw charger leafs because some people like myself insist in it. Best 900 I ever spent, so much time saved waiting at fast chargers, I envy Zoe owners charging at 22 from the SCP's !

It's probably why deans grange wanted my leaf when I was considering changing to the 30 Kwh, the SVE spec and 6.6 Kw charger, a lot easier to sell on seemingly.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Nissan dealers mostly bought the 3.3 Kw to keep the list price as low as possible. I know my dealer actively encouraged people not to buy the 6.6 Kw because they can instead save this money and use the "Free" public chargers. What they really wanted was for people to buy the existing stock and not order a new model. It just so happens they do buy a few 6.6 Kw charger leafs because some people like myself insist in it. Best 900 I ever spent, so much time saved waiting at fast chargers, I envy Zoe owners charging at 22 from the SCP's !

It's probably why deans grange wanted my leaf when I was considering changing to the 30 Kwh, the SVE spec and 6.6 Kw charger, a lot easier to sell on seemingly.

I received no push , one way or the other , and anyway all salesmen try and offload the " stock " , you get that in ICE purchases as well ( typically over colour)

It is clear that Nissan ireland underestimated 6.6kw demand, especially for the 30 kwh. But looking at the stock list in April , its clear that many more 6,6kw were being brought in then previous

Excellent, I'm glad to hear it, I had said to the ESB that they should be aware that dealers are encouraging fast charger usage and convincing people they don't need a 6.6 Kw charger.

Perhaps they did have a word with Nissan Ireland on this and perhaps most EV buyers are reading the threads here on boards, most EV buyers are researching ev's before they buy.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Excellent, I'm glad to hear it, I had said to the ESB that they should be aware that dealers are encouraging fast charger usage and convincing people they don't need a 6.6 Kw charger.

Perhaps they did have a word with Nissan Ireland on this and perhaps most EV buyers are reading the threads here on boards, most EV buyers are researching ev's before they buy.

The ESB have been promulgating the idea that users are skipping home chargers over using FCP for some time, as of course , it supports their contention that they should be charges ( to deter bad behaviour ) .

The evidence is extremely scant, as ESB have no telemetry on the home chargers installed ( which was a clear error in a pilot project , unlike say charge master units in the UK) . They have used entirely arbitrarily data in their report to the CER that is nonsense in the extreme to back up that claim.

So you're suggesting the amount of people using the chargers because they're free are few ??? or because they have no actual hard data to prove otherwise then it must not be happening ?

Water John

What's annoying, is the slow charge network being still rolled out in towns.Very few fast chargers being fitted.

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

The ESB have been promulgating the idea that users are skipping home chargers over using FCP for some time, as of course , it supports their contention that they should be charges ( to deter bad behaviour ) .

The evidence is extremely scant, as ESB have no telemetry on the home chargers installed ( which was a clear error in a pilot project , unlike say charge master units in the UK) . They have used entirely arbitrarily data in their report to the CER that is nonsense in the extreme to back up that claim.

Deleted User wrote: »

So you're suggesting the amount of people using the chargers because they're free are few ??? or because they have no actual hard data to prove otherwise then it must not be happening ?

To quote their report....
Anecdotal evidence asserts that some of the EV owners do not use their home charge points at all and rely solely on public charging for their needs.

It is noted that one user is dominating the usage with 10 other users using the fast charge point 2 to 3 times a week.

The one dominant user they mention used an FCP about 240 times in a 6 month period! So, they used it everyday and twice some days.


Overall, I'd agree with BoatMad. The data doesnt support that users are wholesale using the free network instead of home charging.
10 users appear to be abusing it... thats it. And 9 of those 10 are using an FCP 3 times a week. Not exactly epic proportions.

Water John

A repor,t tried to be written to support the firm that commissioned it and fails. It fails because there is no evidence that supports it.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

What's annoying, is the slow charge network being still rolled out in towns.Very few fast chargers being fitted.

Is it ? I thought the only thing happening was shuffling the AC points around.

More DC will be rolled out when someone is willing to pay for it.

Padraig Mor

I maintain that the importance of the 6kW charger is very much overstated for many - but certainly not all - Leaf drivers. I've done nearly 30k km in the last 15 months (so higher mileage than most) and have never found having 'only' the 3kW charger a problem. Might have been handyish on one or two occasions, but that ain't worth €900 to me. Of course, if you're using the public network extensively, it's a different story. Same goes for the 24/30 kWh battery - I and others have regularly pointed out that the 24kWh Leaf is suitable for a majority of drivers (incl ICE drivers) - far more than realise it. The availability of a larger battery does not make this any less true!

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So you're suggesting the amount of people using the chargers because they're free are few ??? or because they have no actual hard data to prove otherwise then it must not be happening ?

They have no hard data on home usage so the method they used is riddled with " assumptions "

BoatMad

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I maintain that the importance of the 6kW charger is very much overstated for many - but certainly not all - Leaf drivers. I've done nearly 30k km in the last 15 months (so higher mileage than most) and have never found having 'only' the 3kW charger a problem. Might have been handyish on one or two occasions, but that ain't worth €900 to me. Of course, if you're using the public network extensively, it's a different story. Same goes for the 24/30 kWh battery - I and others have regularly pointed out that the 24kWh Leaf is suitable for a majority of drivers (incl ICE drivers) - far more than realise it. The availability of a larger battery does not make this any less true!

I arrive every Wednesday night home at 2am. With the 3kw charger at home, the car will not be fully charged for my wife at 7am. With the 6k6 kw charger it's ready in 3 hours

appfry

KCross wrote: »

To quote their report....
Anecdotal evidence asserts that some of the EV owners do not use their home charge points at all and rely solely on public charging for their needs.

It is noted that one user is dominating the usage with 10 other users using the fast charge point 2 to 3 times a week.

The one dominant user they mention used an FCP about 240 times in a 6 month period! So, they used it everyday and twice some days.


Overall, I'd agree with BoatMad. The data doesnt support that users are wholesale using the free network instead of home charging.
10 users appear to be abusing it... thats it. And 9 of those 10 are using an FCP 3 times a week. Not exactly epic proportions.

My friend charges solely at the public charge points because she lives in an apartment and has no charge point herself.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is it ? I thought the only thing happening was shuffling the AC points around.

More DC will be rolled out when someone is willing to pay for it.

Pilot project is complete. Until we see what' transpires with CER review nothing new is being installed

beauf

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I maintain that the importance of the 6kW charger is very much overstated for many - but certainly not all - Leaf drivers. I've done nearly 30k km in the last 15 months (so higher mileage than most) and have never found having 'only' the 3kW charger a problem. Might have been handyish on one or two occasions, but that ain't worth €900 to me. Of course, if you're using the public network extensively, it's a different story. Same goes for the 24/30 kWh battery - I and others have regularly pointed out that the 24kWh Leaf is suitable for a majority of drivers (incl ICE drivers) - far more than realise it. The availability of a larger battery does not make this any less true!

Is there any better value in the used 3kW market considering the focus on the 6kW?

LOL , it must not be happening so..........

Padraig Mor

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I maintain that the importance of the 6kW charger is very much overstated for many - but certainly not all - Leaf drivers. I've done nearly 30k km in the last 15 months (so higher mileage than most) and have never found having 'only' the 3kW charger a problem. Might have been handyish on one or two occasions, but that ain't worth €900 to me. Of course, if you're using the public network extensively, it's a different story. Same goes for the 24/30 kWh battery - I and others have regularly pointed out that the 24kWh Leaf is suitable for a majority of drivers (incl ICE drivers) - far more than realise it. The availability of a larger battery does not make this any less true!

I don't use it every day or week but mighty glad I have it rather than want it, saved so many trips to and waiting at fast chargers.

McSmithy

Thanks for your replies lads. I understand that the 6.6kW are hard to come by but the process of finding one is tedious to the point of being a disincentive.
The 2 important specifications, that dealers understand well enough to have different price points on a new purchase, are unscrupulously hidden in used car ads. They need to be called out on it publicly.
Buyers can make their own mind up about what spec they want, but they can't find the frigging one they want without personal emails to every bloody seller...

BoatMad

appfry wrote: »

My friend charges solely at the public charge points because she lives in an apartment and has no charge point herself.

That's going to get pricey soon and could be dearer then diesel !!!

I didn't know you were into fortune telling BoatMad !

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't know you were into fortune telling BoatMad !

Unless there is radical Gov involvement , we'll see the CER allow unrestrained " access" style pricing on chargers. Expect the esb to reintroduce the pricing regime from last November in quick succession. The people without home EVSEs are sitting ducks.

isnottheword

McSmithy wrote: »

Buyers can make their own mind up about what spec they want, but they can't find the frigging one they want without personal emails to every bloody seller...

Set up a template email - with the links I provided you with earlier. Then email them the same questions - its just a case of copy and paste. Pull up the listings on autotrader.


However, if you are looking for BOTH 6.6kW charging AND 30kW Leaf, then your search is very much restricted given that the 30 kW is out for a very short time now.

Get working through autotrader. Otherwise, if you don't have the time or inclination, then leave it aside.

No , your making an assumption.

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

No , your making an assumption.

I sincerely hope that he's as far out as a lighthouse as what they had proposed this time last year wasn't reasonable.


If there was a hypothetical situation of there being a monthly subscription, would it be possible for to EV users to clone a card and share the subscription?

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

No , your making an assumption.

not after meeting with them recently, very clear they want unregulated option 4, so they can do what they like and since both the ESB and CER are not in favour of supply licensed based business, then all charging will be priced on a " access basis" , i.e. either the based ( which is very unfair ) or subscription baed or a combination of both .

KCross

appfry wrote: »

My friend charges solely at the public charge points because she lives in an apartment and has no charge point herself.

BoatMad wrote: »

That's going to get pricey soon and could be dearer then diesel !!!

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt the proposed pricing structure only related to FCP's?

SCP's would continue to be free?

The friend in this case might be using an SCP on their street in which case they would be fine.

Padraig Mor

BoatMad wrote: »

I arrive every Wednesday night home at 2am. With the 3kw charger at home, the car will not be fully charged for my wife at 7am. With the 6k6 kw charger it's ready in 3 hours

In fairness, I doubt you'd argue that that is usage typical for most drivers. Even with that noted, unless you're getting home 'on fumes', 5 hrs should be enough to charge it up, no? Mine charges at 17 - 20% per hour on my home charger.

TBH, I've found not having the faster charger to be useful more often than if I did have it - namely if I intend parking somewhere for a few hours (rare, to be fair), I don't particularly want my battery filling up too quick!