Musket Restoration

SullDog

Hi all,

Don't know if this is the right place to post this but I've been looking online and can't seem to find anywhere in Ireland that can help. I have a musket that's been the family for years. It's been taken apart for as long as I can remember but as far as I know all the original parts are there, they just need putting back together. Also where it's been stored the front has been broken which will also need fixing. I was wondering if it's able to be restored and if anyone knows a place that would be able to undertake the restoration? Attached is a picture.

Regards,

Aaron.

endacl

Do you have a license for it?

Do you want to restore it to 'working condition'?

SullDog

I don't have a licence for it but I thought antique firearms didn't require one? (I might be wrong on this one)

Nope. Just want it put back together and the broken wood restored.

Been looking online but from what I've found it's fairly hard to find anyone in Ireland that restores antique firearms (Again I may be wrong on this one)

Also anyone have any idea as to what type of musket it is?

ezra_

Pretty sure you need a licence unless it has been 'permanently' deactivated.

endacl

ezra_ wrote: »

Pretty sure you need a licence unless it has been 'permanently' deactivated.

Not if it's kept as an 'ornament or curiosity'.

SullDog

endacl wrote: »

Not if it's kept as an 'ornament or curiosity'.

I'll purely be mounting it for display or I can get it deactivated when being restored. The main thing is if it can be restored and if there's anywhere in Ireland that can do it?

Savage93

SullDog wrote: »

Hi all,

Don't know if this is the right place to post this but I've been looking online and can't seem to find anywhere in Ireland that can help. I have a musket that's been the family for years. It's been taken apart for as long as I can remember but as far as I know all the original parts are there, they just need putting back together. Also where it's been stored the front has been broken which will also need fixing. I was wondering if it's able to be restored and if anyone knows a place that would be able to undertake the restoration? Attached is a picture.

Regards,

Aaron.

Looks like a Brown Bess
Google for after restoration pics:D:D

SullDog

Savage93 wrote: »

Looks like a Brown Bess
Google for after restoration pics:D:D

Great spot Savage! Thanks for that. Some of those after pictures are things of beauty!

All the photos link back to either US or UK sites which is slightly worrying in regards to an Irish restoration.

Cass

You may need a couple of professionals.

Pat Sludds in Enniscorthy is a genius for wood stuff on firearms. Here is his website. He can build, restore and alter any woodwork on firearms. He is also very reasonable for price. So i'd give him a shout on the timber end.

As for the barrel and mechanics. You'll need a Gunsmith. They can spin the barrel, clean it, and even coat it if that is what you wish. Once the parts are there any competent smith should be able to restore it. Dominic Byrne is one that would come to mind. Tasty work and can finish it off however you like.

Once you have the stock done, collect it, and go to the RFD for final assembly.

SullDog

Thanks Cass! Just contacted Pat and Dominic there. The more I think of it I actually like the rust and aging of the metalwork, acts almost like it's character. I'd like to just get the wood sorted and the parts reassembled.

Any idea of what the overall price of something like this might cost?

Cass

I really wouldn't know. It is based on what you want done and the time that goes into it.

Pat is top class for the work he does and is among the cheapest in the country for it too. His prices go to a max of €450 or so, but that is a for a custom made stock from the ground up. So this would be the absolute top price you get charged. Chances are it would be in the €150 or so mark. However as said above that is a pure guess.

As for the metal work. Depending on the level of cleaning, it could be as little as €150 or as much as €400. I'd say ear mark €300 on the lower end and €500 on the upper end for the lot and you'll definitely have all bases covered and most likely be looking at change.

gunny123

Be careful what you do with it, after all every ding and knock is part of its history, and by restoring it you may obliterate and destroy any value it may have. Who wants a 250 year old gun that looks like it was made last week ?

SullDog

gunny123 wrote: »

Be careful what you do with it, after all every ding and knock is part of its history, and by restoring it you may obliterate and destroy any value it may have. Who wants a 250 year old gun that looks like it was made last week ?

Hi gunny. That's exactly what I'm thinking. I'm feeling just getting the wooden tip that has broken fixed and just reassembling would be enough.

Sparks

Thing is, even if it's disassembled, it's legally a firearm even now. And the antique classification is something that's horrifically vague in Irish law, as we've mentioned a few times before:

Sparks wrote: »

We don't actually have an official legal definition in Ireland of when a firearm is considered an antique
Or more accurately, we have several, all mutually exclusive or mostly so, and all from different places, with no clear idea of which wins.

It's come up a few times before:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=87373749
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81072893
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=79840159
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=56385649
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=54077847

Short version? There's no legal definition of what an antique firearm is, so you could be done right now for possession of an unlicenced firearm and would have to go to court to defend yourself. Which is not something most people would like to take up as a hobby. You would want, pretty quickly, to get a letter from your local super saying that you have permission to have the musket; that should count as due diligence and cover you at least partially. With an original (not a reproduction) musket, you're probably okay, but still...

gunny123

The gardai don't seem particularly bothered by old muzzleloaders Sparks. How often have you seen muskets hanging in ye olde pubs, hotels etc over a fireplace etc ?

I can imagine the titters in the public gallery and the judge rolling his eyes when the firearms officer pulled out that rusty relic out of a bag.

Sparks

I didn't write the law gunny and I'm usually the first person pointing out why it's so ridiculously stupid in places; but it's what it is and all it takes is one young lad a week out from templemore and you're down the price of a car to go into a courtroom to hear the titters from the public gallery. And you don't get all that money back, and you have no guarantee of an outcome in a courtroom ever, and the time and stress are things nobody wants, so if someone asks a question about the law on here, I prefer to tell them what the law says and not how I think every member of the Gardai will enforce it. Especially when all of us have any number of anecdotes about things being done that weren't in accordance with the firearms act by people in uniforms of one kind or another.

extremetaz

Is it not the case that where old/antique firearms are concerned, it's only those that use combined cartridge ammunition which require licence here?

extremetaz

Found it, but as Sparks says, it's not actually legislation, it's a commissioners guideline "in the absense of a definition of an "antique" firearm".

This is extracted from here - The Garda Commissioner’s Guidelines as to the Practical Application and Operation of the Firearms Acts, 1925-2009.

Page 30 reads:
"Antique firearms are exempt from the provisions of the Firearms Acts provided they are held as ornaments or curiosities. In the absence of a definition for an ‘antique’ firearm, Ballistics section at Garda H.Q. applies the ‘Pre Unitary Cartridge’ rule which appears to conform to International standards. Unitary cartridge ammunition consists of a cartridge - usually metal which contains the primer – the propellant and the bullet within it. Modern reproductions of antique firearms are not exempt from firearms legislation. "


So, personally I'd be inclined to contact your local Super making them aware of the situation and having this document at hand in case they're inclined to opt for destruction off hand; but I wouldn't be inclined to attempt to hold on to the parts without their knowledge as, as Sparks has pointed out, you ARE strictly in posession of components parts of a firearm without a licence - and that's all sort of bad news if they ever to decide to have a go at you.

extremetaz

Incidentally, and I was very skeptical, but after taking a good look, that DOES actually appear to be a Bess.

The trigger gaurd and blade look a little off, but otherwise it's correct right down to the screw placements on the action.
If it does turn out to be a Brown Bess then that's one hell of a find right there and you'll defintely want expert care on the restoration!

edit: in case the Land pattern musket needs any introduction - Wiki

another edit: HOLY CRAP THERE IT IS!! It's the India 3rd pattern, although the trigger blade still looks like something later..

Sparks

extremetaz wrote: »

Is it not the case that where old/antique firearms are concerned, it's only those that use combined cartridge ammunition which require licence here?

Geez dude - third, fourth and fifth links in that quote :P

SullDog

Thanks for all the help so far lads it really is much appreciated! Jesus extremetaz, although the one you posted is in much better knick, it looks spot on.

I've yet to hear anything back from anyone on the restoration side of things but I think I'll take your advice and local my local Super. One question... by local Super I take it it's local Superintendent?

Another worry is this "in case they're inclined to opt for destruction off hand". They wouldn't go as far as to have it destroyed would they? :O

Sparks

SullDog wrote: »

They wouldn't go as far as to have it destroyed would they? :O

Quite a few historical pieces were destroyed in the firearms amnesty a few years back. RIC pistols and the like. The historical worth of a firearm is generally outweighed in this things by GUN! GUN! IT'S A GUN! IT'S BLOODY DANGEROUS!!! GET IT OFF THE STREETS!!!

archer22

SullDog wrote: »

Thanks for all the help so far lads it really is much appreciated! Jesus extremetaz, although the one you posted is in much better knick, it looks spot on.

I've yet to hear anything back from anyone on the restoration side of things but I think I'll take your advice and local my local Super. One question... by local Super I take it it's local Superintendent?

Another worry is this "in case they're inclined to opt for destruction off hand". They wouldn't go as far as to have it destroyed would they? :O

There is a high risk they would try to destroy it.The Gardai are not noted for their sophisticated knowledge of things or even of the law.
Their attitude is likely to be if it looks like a firearm then its a firearm..they might decide on whether they think its capable of discharging a missile.If they decide so then its likely angle grinder and hammer time.
Of course thats not a certainty but best to understand its a risk you run.

extremetaz

SullDog wrote: »

They wouldn't go as far as to have it destroyed would they? :O

In a bloody heartbeat dude - not one single solitary f*ck is given for historical significance or anything like it.

gunny123

archer22 wrote: »

There is a high risk they would try to destroy it.The Gardai are not noted for their sophisticated knowledge of things or even of the law.

Having known a few gardai, they are not beyond telling barefaced lies either. One i knew regarded the law as a complete inconvenience.

SullDog

Right this doesn't sound too good... Would I get around the possibly of it being destroyed if I apply for a licence for it?

gunny123

Sparks wrote: »

Quite a few historical pieces were destroyed in the firearms amnesty a few years back. RIC pistols and the like. The historical worth of a firearm is generally outweighed in this things by GUN! GUN! IT'S A GUN! IT'S BLOODY DANGEROUS!!! GET IT OFF THE STREETS!!!

All the firearms carried by the men in 1916 that are up on display in collins barracks have been butchered, sorry "deactivated" too. The guns that contributed to the founding of the state didn't have a chance.

Sparks

SullDog wrote: »

Right this doesn't sound too good... Would I get around the possibly of it being destroyed if I apply for a licence for it?

Yes, but I'd check into getting a letter of permission first. If you're in one of the lucky postcodes and have a local superintendent who isn't what the Gardai have referred to as "problem superintendents", it's a lot less hassle. And asking doesn't preclude applying for a licence.

BattleCorp

Hand it in to a registered firearms dealer for storage in the short term. He might charge you a few quid, but it won't be much. That will stop the Gardaí from destroying it.

Then go to your local Superintendent, tell him you have inherited an old musket that is in storage and that isn't in working condition. The registered firearms dealer will give you paperwork to say that it is in storage with them. Give this letter to the Superintendent. Show him pics of it in bits. Tell him you want to keep it as an antique as that's allowed in the guidelines. Either he will give you a letter allowing you to keep it or he won't. If he does, yay, you win. If he doesn't, maybe your options are to apply for a licence for it.

The only thing about getting a licence for it is that you won't be allowed to hang it over the fire. I'd say it will have to be stored in a gun safe. And the cost. €80 every three years.

Brasros

BattleCorp wrote:

The only thing about getting a licence for it is that you won't be allowed to hang it over the fire. I'd say it will have to be stored in a gun safe. And the cost. €80 every three years.

Would the licence be restricted due to the calibre?

gunny123

Brasros wrote: »

Would the licence be restricted due to the calibre?

Is it smoothbore ? might get away with a shotgun licence. Hopefully if common (or uncommon) sense prevailed, you would need nothing other than a authorisation from the super.

extremetaz

Brasros wrote: »

Would the licence be restricted due to the calibre?

gunny123 wrote: »

Is it smoothbore?

It would be smoothbore yes, although shotgun slugs require a restricted licence AFAIK so that doesn't help as much as you'd think it would.

I also expect he'll have a bloody hard time finding a serial number on it.

What are they anyway 0.84" is it? Minié ball?

Edit: wiki informs be 0.69"... so yeah, I'd say that'd class as restricted alright - I think that actually makes it a cannon by modern legislative standards :P

gunny123

extremetaz wrote: »

It would be smoothbore yes, although shotgun slugs require a restricted licence AFAIK so that doesn't help as much as you'd think it would.

I also expect he'll have a bloody hard time finding a serial number on it.

What are they anyway 0.84" is it? Minié ball?

Edit: wiki informs be 0.69"... so yeah, I'd say that'd class as restricted alright - I think that actually makes it a cannon by modern legislative standards :P

Why would you want to fire slugs from it ? How much of that do you think a gun of that age would take before it done an instantaneous disassembly ? Anyhoo i think its the slugs that are restricted, not the shotgun.

extremetaz

gunny123 wrote: »

Why would you want to fire slugs from it ? How much of that do you think a gun of that age would take before it done an instantaneous disassembly ? Anyhoo i think its the slugs that are restricted, not the shotgun.

Wasn't suggesting you fire slugs from it, was drawing the legislative parrallel between a shotgun firing slugs and a musket firing a lead ball.

Grizzly 45

Unless the OP intends to fire it,it's a bit academic as to what liscense it will need,as it is an antique and relic or even once the local Super has a heads up about it whether they will bother with an authorisation letter ..[Mileage may vary on that last point]
Plus getting the hands on black powder might be a tad difficult in our 26 counties.

Grizzly 45

BattleCorp wrote: »

H

The only thing about getting a licence for it is that you won't be allowed to hang it over the fire. I'd say it will have to be stored in a gun safe. And the cost. €80 every three years.

Which would lead to a most intresting conondrum.Its a muzzle loader,it requires black powder and obviously either round ball or shot,giving everyone another headache.As it can use both round ball and shot,will it need a endorsement to fire round ball?? Soo back to the other problem,getting the BP to fire it as a muzzle loader...Do we see where this is going?How then does he aquire,store and use BPin the 26??As there is absolutely NOTHING in legislation on this.Its well into "Here be dragons" country.After all if it is liscensed as a shotgun he is entitled to use it as such and therefore entitled to aquire the bits to make it work as well.Personally,I think any Super for a quiet life unless they are complete asswipes will just issue a keepers permit.

Instant destruction..Noo not quite, you can get a court order to prevent this happening in the worst case scenario and it wouldn't look good on any Super being shown up in court for destroying someones family heirloom handed down from generation to generation since the year of liberty in 1791 to the present day etc etc.
this is one of the great things about the interweb these days.Back in the day AGS could get away with alot of nonsense with firearms,because people were ignorant of the laws relating to them and the blind trust of the uniform ,suit&silk tie and cassock in the State up to the 90s even. Now,its a different story with come backs on the PTB and info is available on this subject aplentry.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

this is one of the great things about the interweb these days.Back in the day AGS could get away with alot of nonsense with firearms,because people were ignorant of the laws relating to them and the blind trust of the uniform ,suit&silk tie and cassock in the State up to the 90s even. Now,its a different story with come backs on the PTB and info is available on this subject aplentry.

Its amazing, but actually irish society has completely inverted in a lot of ways, the days of the guard, local priest/bishop, td/minister etc having the complete and unquestioning obedience of the cap doffing public is long gone.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Unless the OP intends to fire it,it's a bit academic as to what liscense it will need

Well, not quite, because if it's licenced as a firearm for target shooting or whatnot, you'll need a gunsafe and putting it up on the wall might raise issues.
The letter of permission saying it's an antique really is the best avenue here. It's just a crapshoot because the law's so damn gray in this area.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

this is one of the great things about the interweb these days.

It's a pretty big part of why we've kept this place going all these years

tac foley

The Land Pattern Musket, AKA 'Brown Bess', fired a .69cal ball in a barrel that varied between .72" and .75" bore. It was fired with the remains of the official 120gr of Fg black powder - a small amount having been put in the pan beforehand - say 115gr, and loaded loosely with the paper wrapping of the cartridge as a form of wad to hold the ball in place while the bang happened.

Over in UK, Peter Dyson is well-known for his selection of spare parts, including screws and various styles of cock that prevailed over the almost 130 years in service [you don't appear to have a lock?]. Henry Krank also has many spares, both real and replica. None are exactly bargain basement. Over here, a full and sympathetic restoration to display condition of a set of parts like your could well dip into four figures.

Over in the USA, Dixie Gun Works of Gunpowder Lane, Union City, TN, have every part that was ever made and operate a great mail order service for BP-era stuff that is ITAR-exempt.

As the barrel is already out of the stock, you will need to replace the three tenon pins that hold it in place. They are tapered,and only come out and go back in one way - between two and four, depending on the age and era of the gun. No gun of this era has any kind of a serial number, but it MIGHT have both a rack number, and a regimental number. The rack number will be impressed, stamped or even branded into the butt, and the regimental number engraved with a burin into the top metal of the butt-plate. The lockplate should have the word 'TOWER' or more often 'GRICE' burin-engraved on it, as well as a royal cypher GR [Georgius Rex - King George].

I remain astounded that a gun kit with at least two hundred years behind it can be treated as a live-firing firearm. Unless, of course, you wish to shoot it. With your laws the way they are currently, that would seem to be an unsurmountable problem, given that professional demonstration re-enactors are themselves no longer allowed to shoot in a public demonstration, after one of them inadvertently launched his ramrod whilst firing his musket.

tac