Brim Bros ceased trading

seamus

Alek wrote: »

Does this mean that at least 250 companies are registered under exactly the same physical address? :eek:

Very common for a company to engage solicitor & secretarial services to handle all of that registration and account guff. The business then gets registered to the secretarial services.

For example:
http://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/Kpmg-230360

This Irish company shares its Eircode with at least 356 other companies.

BoatMad

mathie wrote: »

From their website

I find this hard to believe.
You "very nearly made it" and then what? Just gave up? Didn't have enough funds?
If you very nearly made it surely someone would step in to assist the last push or had that "last push" happened a few times?

in all small companies , that are relying on private finance , finance " walls" get reached several times and near death is experienced on many occasions. Sometimes though there simply isn't any more rope available !

fundamentally , reading the blogs, the unexpected variability in the production version of the force sensor has scuppered production and the money/time isn't there to both fund the r&D and restart production to solve the problem.

The fact is things fail in real life , thats includes businesses. Theres no badness involved here

Perhaps there might be opportunities in selling the patents/products to a company with deeper pockets , but thats of little consolation to both the investors and the current purchasers , neater of which are likely to be re-imbursed

ted1

Diarmuid wrote: »

I would think the theory behind a power meter is pretty simple. A few strain guages and accelerometers. it's the engineering that turns it into a manufacturable product that's the hard part.

It's not a great result for the investors or the guys behind it. Never good to see 8 years of work going nowhere.

I built one fur my final year project in college (electronic engineering) it worked pretty well. Wasn't cycling back then, but I reckon it could have been commercialised easy enough. I had the strain guages on the crack arms on both sides so that you could see what each leg was delivering

BoatMad

ted1 wrote: »

I built one fur my final year project in college (electronic engineering) it worked pretty well. Wasn't cycling back then, but I reckon it could have been commercialised easy enough. I had the strain guages on the crack arms on both sides so that you could see what each leg was delivering

sure sure, and a flute is just a copper pipe with holes in it.

there is a massive difference between a non commercial student project and a small mass specialised consumer product.

think of the issues in selling a product that requires either new crank arms or users modifying the crank arms themselves , think of long term durability, temperature drift , initial calibration, links to recoding and display devices , power supply and recharging etc

come back to us then !!?

ted1

BoatMad wrote: »

sure sure, and a flute is just a copper pipe with holes in it.

there is a massive difference between a non commercial student project and a small mass specialised consumer product.

think of the issues in selling a product that requires either new crank arms or users modifying the crank arms themselves , think of long term durability, temperature drift , initial calibration, links to recoding and display devices , power supply and recharging etc

come back to us then !!?

I know quite a bit about manufacturing, I worked as a R and D engineer for a large multinational who had a small design house here. We had to get our prototypes and products manufactured abroad and also we had to get certifications for strict environmental usage.

I had a 433mhz wireless unit displaying the data on a handle bar unit, which had storage aswell Charging and batteries were already considered.

With BTE ANT etc there's easier ways to do it now.

godtabh

BoatMad wrote: »

sure sure, and a flute is just a copper pipe with holes in it.

there is a massive difference between a non commercial student project and a small mass specialised consumer product.

think of the issues in selling a product that requires either new crank arms or users modifying the crank arms themselves , think of long term durability, temperature drift , initial calibration, links to recoding and display devices , power supply and recharging etc

come back to us then !!?

Most people I think agree that there was a product there but the difficulties was in the production of it.

I've no doubt that with enough time every one here could probably come up with something similar in terms of a basic concept. Having a manufacture/marketable/sell able product is totally different. Thats why manufacture engineering is big business.

buffalo

ted1 wrote: »

I know quite a bit about manufacturing, I worked as a R and D engineer for a large multinational who had a small design house here. We had to get our prototypes and products manufactured abroad and also we had to get certifications for strict environmental usage.

I had a 433mhz wireless unit displaying the data on a handle bar unit, which had storage aswell Charging and batteries were already considered.

With BTE ANT etc there's easier ways to do it now.

When's the kickstarter? I'm in for two!

ted1

buffalo wrote: »

When's the kickstarter? I'm in for two!

Doing a 5 for 4 special

guanciale

This is a real disappointment for the guys behind Brim, but with a lot of new businesses particularly where proof of concept is required, then survivability is simply a fact of life.
This might be off topic, but Ireland needs a lot more risk takers like Barry and I wish home well for the future. We are overly dependent upon Multinationals using Ireland as a base because of an extensive network of tax treaties with other jurisdictions. This business model is under attack from our EU partners and as a betting person I would wager it will not last the decade. It is for that reason that we need to foster an environment whereby people can try and yes very many of them will fail. They key is to keep endeavouring. It must be difficult in Ireland given all of the usual jaundiced view that everyone who fails in business is in some way a conniving chancer on the make. Sorry for the rant.

lennymc

Alek wrote: »

Does this mean that at least 250 companies are registered under exactly the same physical address? :eek:

1209 North Orange Street, Wilmington, Delaware is home to 285,000 registered companies :eek:


It's a shame to see this fail as it really would have been a great alternative for those with multiple bikes.

doozerie

Inevitably in a situation like this there will be some that label those behind the failed company as criminals (the comments on Kickstarter are mostly very personal and downright nasty), and some that label those who put money into it as reckless with their money at best and entirely stupid at worst. I guess that's human nature, we just love to gossip and some people get a particular kick out of laughing at the misfortune of others.

Whatever your view on this situation, whether it's a source of amusement to you or not, you are mistaken if you dismiss Kickstarter as being simply about money. I pre-purchased a Brim Brothers power meter partly because I liked the idea of such a power meter, partly because their offer price seemed good, but also because I'd like to see a small and Irish company succeed in a field dominated for years by some very large players. Competition in this market is good, I believe, and if that competition can be an Irish success then all the better.

I got burnt, I'm not happy about it but being bitter about it would be silly too. I spent the money knowing I was taking a risk and it didn't work out. Would this stop me from taking such a risk in the future for similar reasons? I hope not, that would be silly too.

seamus

doozerie wrote: »

Inevitably in a situation like this there will be some that label those behind the failed company as criminals

At the end of the day, they've been working on this project for 8 years and raised around €350,000 in project funding from the likes of kickstarter. That's realistically not a lot of money to work with when you have overheads to pay on top of your R&D costs. If Barry was taking any kind of income from the company I'd be surprised.

People give money to companies on kickstarter in the expectation that it's going straight into product development and that the company isn't already in the red. In reality, any company which is relying on crowdfunding to investment is likely on its last legs and making a final effort to save itself from insolvency.

If there was a strong marketable product, banks or venture funds would be their first port of call. If they're on kickstarter, it's because the investors have closed their doors and they've already obtained as many loans from the bank as they can.

doozerie

seamus wrote: »

If there was a strong marketable product, banks or venture funds would be their first port of call. If they're on kickstarter, it's because the investors have closed their doors and they've already obtained as many loans from the bank as they can.

That may well be the case, although I'm not convinced not least because I think there are other motives for some people for going the route of something like Kickstarter. But even if I were to accept what you say, that's to me is still not a reason to never use Kickstarter.

As I say, it's not all about the money, I reckon the world would be a fairly miserable place if the assessment of *every* risk where money is involved was based entirely on potential personal financial benefits/losses.

Lumen

seamus wrote: »

In reality, any company which is relying on crowdfunding to investment is likely on its last legs and making a final effort to save itself from insolvency.

If there was a strong marketable product, banks or venture funds would be their first port of call. If they're on kickstarter, it's because the investors have closed their doors and they've already obtained as many loans from the bank as they can.

Hmmm, sounds like a perfect market in finance. You do recall the banking meltdown, right? A large driver of that was the fact that Irish banks would only lend for property, and that hasn't changed much except in lending volumes.

Kickstarter isn't only a funding platform. A large part of its draw is marketing. If you can get people to pony up for vapourware that proves demand which then attracts equity finance. (I wonder if there's a market in Kickstarter fraud?).

Cond0r

Brim Borthers are (were) not the only company working on a wearable cycling power meter.

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2016/09/lucks-cycling-power-meter-shoe.html

mossym

some customers, 61 in total i believe were offered a Brin Brothers unit from what they had when they went under. they came with a certain set of conditions. No surprised on lac of support or firmware, you'd expect that, but read the conditions, especially the bit in bold, and tell me you still believe the bull$hit about how close to a manufacturable working model they were.


The functional power meters available are only Zone DPMX Single (left side only). We do not have any Zone DPMX Dual available. This offer to ship a Zone DPMX Single is open to you whether you originally selected Single or Dual on Kickstarter.
The power meters will have no guarantee as to accuracy or robustness.
The power meters will have no specification as to their accuracy or performance. The previously published specifications will not apply.
No support or customer service will be available for the power meters. Brim Brothers is ceasing operations so there will be no staff or resources to provide support.
There will be no firmware updates for the power meters.
The power meters are not accurate. Their accuracy may vary depending on the shoes they are used with, and on the pedalling style of the rider. That includes variations between different riding conditions, such as indoor trainer versus outdoor road, or seated versus standing.
There is a possibility that the power meters will suffer a hardware failure and become unusable. No replacement parts or repair service will be available.
When your power meter arrives you may be liable to pay local taxes and duties.

BoatMad

very suprised that Brim are supplying any product post a cease trade decision, in essence its a form of preferential creditor arrangement that could in fact imperil the Directors. I hope they got legal advice

doozerie

mossym wrote: »

No surprised on lac of support or firmware, you'd expect that, but read the conditions, especially the bit in bold, and tell me you still believe the bull$hit about how close to a manufacturable working model they were.

Their claims might have been rubbish, they might not. Their recent statements prove/disprove nothing so none of us are any better informed as a result. The manufacturing process failed, they said that, so unreliable units is a given, unless you have access to more info than the rest of us then your assessment of how close to/far from a reliable process they really were is pure speculation.

More importantly though, does it even matter at this stage?

Kaisr Sose

It could not be expected that they would say they are great, work problem free, are consistently accuarate, stable across all shoes, pedalling styles etc

If they were all these, they probably would have succeeded and gone to market. As per above, it hardly matters at this stage.

mossym

doozerie wrote: »

More importantly though, does it even matter at this stage?

i imagine those that invested money would like to know the truth. plus if brim brothers was to reappear down the line under a different name, as is quite common, saying how close they were, it would be a lot better that people know how far away they actually were.

You're right that there is no clear admission they were miles away. but in a previous role i worked for several years on a pressure type sensor in an electronic device everyone here uses on a daily basis.i've been through the ordeal of getting repeatable results from sensors into data form that you can use. it's not easy. based on that experience though, i 'd struggle to accept those are manufacturing issues, they are fundamental flaws in the measurement method.

I've no desire to beat someone when they are down, but better that people question that and make an informed decision if this appears for funding again.

tunney

mossym wrote: »

i imagine those that invested money would like to know the truth. plus if brim brothers was to reappear down the line under a different name, as is quite common, saying how close they were, it would be a lot better that people know how far away they actually were.

You're right that there is no clear admission they were miles away. but in a previous role i worked for several years on a pressure type sensor in an electronic device everyone here uses on a daily basis.i've been through the ordeal of getting repeatable results from sensors into data form that you can use. it's not easy. based on that experience though, i 'd struggle to accept those are manufacturing issues, they are fundamental flaws in the measurement method.

I've no desire to beat someone when they are down, but better that people question that and make an informed decision if this appears for funding again.

Fundamental design issues full stop, reads like the concept could never work no matter how long that they had.

fat bloke

Nearly drowned or nearly saved. The magnitude of the nearly is of little relevance at the end of the day.
It was clearly an ambitious project and it seems like they did their best and as with all these things if it had worked out then they'd be the best lads in the world and a credit to their country and the cycling community etc, but.... C'est dommage mais c'est la vie.

Lumen

mossym wrote: »

I've no desire to beat someone when they are down, but better that people question that and make an informed decision if this appears for funding again.

I very much doubt that will happen. IMO the window of opportunity was over 5 years ago when the competition was 3k SRMs.

Shimano are going to have their crank power meter out in a few months. When Shimano is doing it you know the innovation ship has sailed.

doozerie

mossym wrote: »

I've no desire to beat someone when they are down, but better that people question that and make an informed decision if this appears for funding again.

I'm all for informed decisions, but that requires actual information rather than speculation. Reading stuff into their recent (vague, at best) e-mails falls entirely into the latter category, in my opinion.

And I'm speaking as one of those that you referred to, that invested money and would like to know the truth. It's easy to get pissed off with the situation and just throw accusations and blame about - if the full details ever come out it will be in spite of, rather than because of, that approach though.

mossym

doozerie wrote: »

I'm all for informed decisions, but that requires actual information rather than speculation. Reading stuff into their recent (vague, at best) e-mails falls entirely into the latter category, in my opinion.

And I'm speaking as one of those that you referred to, that invested money and would like to know the truth. It's easy to get pissed off with the situation and just throw accusations and blame about - if the full details ever come out it will be in spite of, rather than because of, that approach though.

you surely see the irony in what you are saying? this whole project was based on speculation. people backed it with no proof that it worked, based on analyzing the bits of information that were released and deciding for themselves that it was a viable product. No-one that i know of had the luxury of seeing a fully working unit that proved that the project was viable. that's the essence of crowdfunding, i'm waiting on a different product that was supposed to ship 4 months ago, there are regular updates that it is just about to ship, but until it does it's pure speculation that the project work.

you looked at the information that was provided, and speculated that it was a viable product, so you backed it. others looked at it and said that it wasn't, including me admittedly, there are posts on here from me proving how skeptical i was of how valid it was and advising people to wait and see it working before they gave money.

but i understand your point, so let me rephrase my earlier post

the list i provided came directly from brim brothers.


my opinion, and it's only that, based on both an engineering education and experience of similar technology, is that that lists proves the technology was fundamentally flawed outside of just manufacturing issues. it's only my opinion, and shouldn't be taken as any more than that

guanciale

So if I get this correct, some people entered into an early stage equity type investment - and seem sorta angry/confused that they lost money.
This is speculative early stage investment and while it is pretty fundamental to commerce it is entirely speculative. The probability of winning is so small and actually the very real possibility is that you will lose most of all of your funds.

Anyone who did not recognise this wth Brim has learned a valuable lesson. The guys behind the from owe you nothing, not answers not the truth, nothing.
Equity investing is always a promise of returns it is not a contract and never will be.

mossym

guanciale wrote: »

So if I get this correct, some people entered into an early stage equity type investment - and seem sorta angry/confused that they lost money.
.

i don't think you have it correct, i haven't read anger and confusion in any of the posts on here. in fact, compared to the witch hunts I've seen on some forums for cases like this, i think the response here has been quite understanding.

sure, we've had the "well i knew it" (guilty as charged), but i don't think the discussion has been about the lost money, if anything it's been almost predictable in that it's been largely those with technical backgrounds doing what they always do and trying to figure out the problem and focusing on the technical issues.

in fact, even over the years of development, the huge majority of posts i've seen on brim brothers have focused on the technical aspects, which in fairness to them is a testament to how technically innovative the concept was, despite any struggles they had in delivering it.

doozerie

mossym wrote: »

you surely see the irony in what you are saying?

I don't see it as ironic, though I can see how it could be perceived as such. Basically, I committed cash to the Brim Brothers product partly because I'd have liked a working power meter built into my cleats, but also partly because I liked the idea of a small Irish company succeeding in this particular market.

Truth be told, I had reservations about the restrictions inherent in the product from day one - do I want to be committed to Speedplay pedals indefinitely, do I want to be committed to shoes with a strap indefinitely, etc., etc. It was the latter idea above that overcame my reservations, so while the prospect of an Irish success wasn't necessarily the main reason for my ending up losing money, it did play a big part.

So yeah, I was speculating when I "invested" (it's not really investing at all, of course, but "purchasing" doesn't fit either in the circumstances). But I based my assessment of the viability of the product on the information presented by Brim Brothers. That info and data guaranteed nothing of course, but I considered it adequate to give me cause for optimism.

I chose to believe they weren't lying, some of the reaction to the current situation on other forums (and hinted at by some of the grumpier posts in this thread) has people labelling them as liars and worse. I continue to choose to believe they are not lying when they say the issues they encountered were not with the basic product but with production challenges.

I'm open to being convinced that is not the case but only real evidence will make me reassess my current opinion. The recent email of theirs that you quoted doesn't amount to evidence, in my opinion, I think it was entirely predictable that they'd wrap their "offer" in as many caveats as they could squeeze into it, and that's exactly what they did.

What would be interesting to hear is how those units work in practice. If the people that receive them find them to be entirely unreliable then that would have me questioning how deep the problems with the product really went.

Of course, experience and background plays a part in this topic too. I hoped that their power meter was a "product" by the time I threw money at it. A different/cannier person might never consider something a product until it was possible to be reliably manufactured in quantity. The latter might reasonably believe me to have been entirely naive in my assessment.

mossym

doozerie wrote: »

Of course, experience and background plays a part in this topic too. I hoped that their power meter was a "product" by the time I threw money at it. A different/cannier person might never consider something a product until it was possible to be reliably manufactured in quantity. The latter might reasonably believe me to have been entirely naive in my assessment.

i don't think anyone would suggest you are niave. as we are both agreeing it seems, it's a judgement call based on how you interpreted the information. i didn't back this one, i backed another that may not show up. it's the nature of crowdfunding

Lumen

guanciale wrote: »

So if I get this correct, some people entered into an early stage equity type investment - and seem sorta angry/confused that they lost money.

Kickstarter offers neither equity nor investment. It's a cross between a retail platform and a donation platform