Are brakeless fixies stupid?

Chips Lovell

OleRodrigo wrote: »

In my opinion, riding without brakes enhances your road awareness, much more than it would riding normally in city traffic, but some people seem to confuse the idea of it with no brakes on a freewheel bike.

Now I'm not sure who's winding up who.

15 ALL, I reckon.

Wishbone Ash

OleRodrigo wrote: »

.... but some people seem to confuse the idea of it with no brakes on a freewheel bike. They don't have the experience of what its like to control a fixed gear bike with their body.....

Agree with you on that - it's a totally different experience. I rarely use the brakes on my fixie adjusting speed with my legs (but I still like to have the brakes there!).

Wishbone Ash

OleRodrigo wrote: »

I'm convinced you're really Alan Partridge.

Lost on me I'm afraid --can't bear Coogan so I've never seen it.

Kaisr Sose

Carawaystick wrote: »

Can you provide any evidence to show how many non-fixie road users were injured or suffered property damage which would have beed prevented or substantially mitigated by having extra brakes fitted to the fixed wheel bike?

It's not about that. I have seen many non-independent brake fixies nearly come a cropper or nearly collide with people or vehicles to say they are not great for use in major urban/ high traffic situations. No matter how good a cyclist is, they can't control or predict the behaviour of other road users all the time....

Also, is it not illegal to 'drive' (legal term for 'cycle') a bicycle without an independent brake or is there another loop hole in legislation that permits them?

Lusk_Doyle

Lumen wrote: »

Possibilities:

a) Fixie-ism is not an inheritable trait.
b) Fixie-ists are already fathers..

Or mothers. Bloody sexism.

Dermot Illogical

I wouldn't like to cycle one down from Howth summit on the village side.

kumate_champ07

its silly, I have brakes for emergencies but slow myself down using my my legs. I accidentally skid stopped a few days ago and felt a little embarrassed but also angry at wasting rubber. I was slowing down coming up to lights and hit a bump in the road which locked my rear wheel

Alanbt

I have a fixed gear, and enjoy it as a change from my road bikes, but no brake is simply dumb.

Don't have to use it all the time, but at least have it there for emergencies

Harrybelafonte

JBokeh

I'd be very slow to use one on the road, I set up a bike as fixed gear, but left the brakes on, stopping or slowing with the legs alone is a really alien feeling, and surprisingly effective, up to a certain point, then it just feels like you're doing damage to leg muscles

Brakeless BMX is the only way to go, they don't go fast enough for you to get in any trouble for not having brakes

Harrybelafonte

JBokeh wrote: »

I'd be very slow to use one on the road, I set up a bike as fixed gear, but left the brakes on, stopping or slowing with the legs alone is a really alien feeling, and surprisingly effective, up to a certain point, then it just feels like you're doing damage to leg muscles

Brakeless BMX is the only way to go, they don't go fast enough for you to get in any trouble for not having brakes

Why would you set up a fixed gear bike and leave the brakes on the back? Just leave it single speed.

Bomb Down Broadway has evidence that you can get into trouble for not having brakes.

Lumen

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Or mothers. Bloody sexism.

I don't recall ever seeing a brakeless fixie being skidded down the road by a woman. That's not to say it doesn't happen.

OleRodrigo

OleRodrigo wrote: »

It might be difficult to stop rapidly but that depends on your gearing. How often do you need to stop rapidly ? Not very often if you're paying attention to your environment.

Survival is an exaggerated term. The key to avoiding any problem is modulating your speed to your environment, ie, don't go so fast that you wont be able to slow down quickly in a built up/ busy area.

In the scenario you present, you reduce your speed by putting back pressure on the pedals as they rotate forward ( you probably wouldn't be doing 40 kmph downhill to begin with, having already spotted the pedestrian lights before your descent ). How fast you stop is a combination of the strength in your legs, your gearing and the distance between you and the lights. Its rarely as melodramatic as you suggest. Even with brakes if you're paying attention to the road you rarely need to stop suddenly. You generally use brakes to slow down. With no brakes, you use your legs.

In my opinion, riding without brakes enhances your road awareness, much more than it would riding normally in city traffic, but some people seem to confuse the idea of it with no brakes on a freewheel bike. They don't have the experience of what its like to control a fixed gear bike with their body, so they get all neurotic about it.

It is still something to be cautious about, though. And whatever you do, don't tell your cycling buddies or they'll have a self righteous conniption, a meltdown from cognitive dissonance.

I'm sorry but the laws of physics say that you are plain wrong.

As lumen says during braking the deceleration unloads the rear wheel reducing available grip.
Conversely the increased loading on the front wheel increases available grip (which goes complete unutilised without a front brake).

Under ideal conditions using front wheel braking only a bicycle can generate a braking force of around 0.6g. Braking force is limited by the possibility of the rear wheel lifting off the ground and the bicycle and rider flipping over the front wheel rather than by grip.

Using rear wheel braking only the maximum braking force that can be generated is a measly 0.15g.

Then we have to consider static vs kinetic friction. Static friction is the initial resistance that one object has to moving against another. Once the static friction is overcome and the object is set in motion the force required to keep it moving is much less.

In the case of a bicycle tyre when not skidding we are dealing with the higher static friction, once a skid is initiated the friction of the tyre against the surface is significantly reduced.

This means that when skid stopping a fixie is probably not even capable of producing 0.15g of braking force, less than a quarter of what a bike with actual brakes can provide.

I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've genuinely had to use all 0.6g of braking force my front brake can give, due to anticipating the road conditions etc.

One occasion that stands out in my memory is when I was descending at around 60kph on a country road and a truck turning right pulled across the road in front of me. Thinking it was going to be clear of my path by the time I reached the junction I braked and moved to the left of the road. I got a nasty surprise when a second truck appeared coming out of the junction connected to the first by a tow rope.

Using a slight amount of rear brake allowed me to modulate the front brake to achieve maximum deceleration. Every time the rear wheel locked up (meaning rear wheel liftoff was imminent) I slightly eased off on the front brake. Doing this provided a deceleration G force that felt not dissimilar to slamming on the brakes in a car, as in it felt like my face was being pulled off. I came to a stop about 3 feet away from the 2nd truck which rumbled on by me.

Had I been on a brakeless fixie, collision with the 2nd truck would have been unavoidable, with a real risk of it then rolling over and crushing me.

No amount of anticipatory road positioning, speed modulation or sharp look out can protect you from the downright unexpected and unexpectable.

Riding without a front brake is out and out insanity. For the sake of saving a few unobtrusive grams of metal mounted at the top of your fork you are exposing yourself and those around you to needless increased risk.

But hey at least you look cool.

Harrybelafonte

And if you'd been on roller blades you would have been totally screwed. How many grams of braking force do they have?

ford2600

Deleted User wrote: »

Using rear wheel braking only the maximum braking force that can be generated is a measly 0.15g.
QUOTE]

Not disagreeing with your post but are you sure about that? I would have thought about 0.4g? (assuming we are talking about dry conditions and a decent quality asphalt surface)

Maximum breaking power comes just before lock up, something which abs braking utilizes to maximize breaking power and to keep some steering control.

Importantly with a combination of front and rear I'd expect an experienced cyclist to get circa 0.9g breaking force. Lynn B Fricke quotes 0.95 for an experiences motorcyclist.

OleRodrigo

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sorry but the laws of physics say that you are plain wrong.

As lumen says during braking the deceleration unloads the rear wheel reducing available grip.
Conversely the increased loading on the front wheel increases available grip (which goes complete unutilised without a front brake).

Under ideal conditions using front wheel braking only a bicycle can generate a braking force of around 0.6g. Braking force is limited by the possibility of the rear wheel lifting off the ground and the bicycle and rider flipping over the front wheel rather than by grip.

Using rear wheel braking only the maximum braking force that can be generated is a measly 0.15g.

Then we have to consider static vs kinetic friction. Static friction is the initial resistance that one object has to moving against another. Once the static friction is overcome and the object is set in motion the force required to keep it moving is much less.

In the case of a bicycle tyre when not skidding we are dealing with the higher static friction, once a skid is initiated the friction of the tyre against the surface is significantly reduced.

This means that when skid stopping a fixie is probably not even capable of producing 0.15g of braking force, less than a quarter of what a bike with actual brakes can provide.

I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've genuinely had to use all 0.6g of braking force my front brake can give, due to anticipating the road conditions etc.

One occasion that stands out in my memory is when I was descending at around 60kph on a country road and a truck turning right pulled across the road in front of me. Thinking it was going to be clear of my path by the time I reached the junction I braked and moved to the left of the road. I got a nasty surprise when a second truck appeared coming out of the junction connected to the first by a tow rope.

Using a slight amount of rear brake allowed me to modulate the front brake to achieve maximum deceleration. Every time the rear wheel locked up (meaning rear wheel liftoff was imminent) I slightly eased off on the front brake. Doing this provided a deceleration G force that felt not dissimilar to slamming on the brakes in a car, as in it felt like my face was being pulled off. I came to a stop about 3 feet away from the 2nd truck which rumbled on by me.

Had I been on a brakeless fixie, collision with the 2nd truck would have been unavoidable, with a real risk of it then rolling over and crushing me.

No amount of anticipatory road positioning, speed modulation or sharp look out can protect you from the downright unexpected and unexpectable.

Riding without a front brake is out and out insanity. For the sake of saving a few unobtrusive grams of metal mounted at the top of your fork you are exposing yourself and those around you to needless increased risk.

But hey at least you look cool.

ford2600

ford2600 wrote: »

Not disagreeing with your post but are you sure about that? I would have thought about 0.4g? (assuming we are talking about dry conditions and a decent quality asphalt surface)


Maximum breaking power comes just before lock up, something which abs braking utilizes to maximize breaking power and to keep some steering control.

Importantly with a combination of front and rear I'd expect an experienced cyclist to get circa 0.9g breaking force. Lynn B Fricke quotes 0.95 for an experiences motorcyclist.

Obviously there will be some variation. The main difference between motorbikes and bicycles is the centre of gravity is much lower in the motorbike due to the weight of the engine being down low. This reduces the tendency to rotate around the front wheel, also keeping more weight on the rear wheel.

For a bicycle the majority of the weight is in the rider, which is much higher up. Thus an increased tendency to rotate around the front wheel and more rapid unloading of the rear.

Chuchote

If you want the possibility of dying young and leaving a beautiful* corpse, fine. I'd be happier to see one brake on a fixie, just in case you discover how long the Knockmaroon Hill is at the same time as discovering how hard it is to stop pedals going around with the force of the pedals.

* Guarantee invalidated by road rash and slight crushing

Harrybelafonte

What about brakeless and no foot retention, that's going to send some of you apoplectic!

nak

Lumen wrote: »

I don't recall ever seeing a brakeless fixie being skidded down the road by a woman. That's not to say it doesn't happen.

I have many times.

Carawaystick

Does using your foot and the seatstays count as brakes like it did in our youth?

What are peoples riled up venomous opinions on lassies or lads on unicycles with no brakes? Should they wear Hi Viz?

Chips Lovell

I'd be surprised if anyone's actually "riled up" or "apoplectic".

It is possible to calmly point out that something is idiotic.

asteroids over berlin

is it normal for people to jump off the "fixie" bike to stop. Some clown done so a few days ago - jumped right onto the footpath running towards me to stop. it only takes one time to end up on your ass or under a truck or something! i don't get it!

tomasrojo

I've never ridden a fixie, let alone a brakeless fixie.

Essentially, you can't brake hard when you ride a brakeless fixie, is that correct?

It does seem unlikely that you will never have a situation where you have to brake hard, however skillful and careful you are. At least, these situations crop up a few times a year for me.

(Definition of hard braking might be required. Ability to go from 20km/h to 0km/h in the space of ten or so metres? Nothing very athletic.)

ThisRegard

Carawaystick wrote: »

Does using your foot and the seatstays count as brakes like it did in our youth?

It'll certainly rile up your mother when she gives you a good clatter after seeing the state you're making of your good shoes.

Chuchote

You can jump off into a hedge. But if you're racing down a long potholed road with pavement and walls on either side and no brakes, and the pedals going around faster than you can stop them, and your feet up on the crossbar, I'd guess that it would alert your brain to the old debate about helmets and safety :cool:

Fian

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Has anyone who voted yes ridden a brake-less fixie?

I had one when i was 6-8 years old. Well not quite a fixie, it could freewheel, but the brakes activated by back pedaling, which would immediately lock the back wheel.

It was genuinely one of the coolest bikes I have ever owned, was fantastic for skidding around corners. Unfortunately in the end my younger brother borrowed it, crashed it into a wall and split the frame in two.

All of which suggests that the poll is giving the correct verdict. Thouigh actually there is a place for back pedal brakes for young kids who don't have the finger strength to up handle brakes.

tomasrojo

Do coaster brakes have better stopping power than fixies? Presumably it's much the same? You do get to freewheel as well, which probably reduces potential for pedal strike.

Chuchote

Back-pedal brakes have their own danger. A friend who grew up on back-pedal-brake bikes found that even in her 60s she'd forget and stamp backwards in a moment of panic, which led to some hairy moments until she imported a back-pedal-brake model from Poland.

Wishbone Ash

tomasrojo wrote: »

I've never ridden a fixie, let alone a brakeless fixie.

Essentially, you can't brake hard when you ride a brakeless fixie, is that correct?...

It's hard to avoid locking up the rear wheel which can happen easily in the wet.

Slowing down is no problem. A normal flattish journey (with no emergencies) can easily be completed using legs alone.