Testers not all on the same page?

Neamhshuntasach

Sorry...this might be a bit long.

Thankfully i passed my test a long long time ago. But it's almost like i'm doing it again as my girlfriend has just failed her 7th test. So i'm feeling all the despair along with here.

The thing is, she's a good driver. And has only failed by either getting 4 grade 2's in one category or a grade 3. The most amount of grade 2's she's got in any of the 7 tests is 6.

In 5 of the tests she failed. The 4 grade 2's in the same category have all come from her doing something and was then told after the test to do the opposite. The recent one being in her 6th test, she was told by the tester she failed because she was turning right in 2nd gear and that this should not be done. But this was in response to being told after the 5th test that she should roll into first for a right turn. And now today she got 4 grade 2's for gears because she was turning in second when safe to do so. So what is it? That's 3 tests failed due to different interpretations by testers.

Another one she failed was in tests 2 and 3. In test 2 she failed because she was doing a 360 degree look around when moving off on advice of instructor. Which was not a problem in the first test. No marks for it. After test 2 tester told her she should not look over left shoulder. So she corrected it for test 3 and did not check over left shoulder. Then got 4 grade 2's for observation due to not looking over her left shoulder.

And for the grade 3's in test 1 and 4. I have a dash cam in her car and i've reviewed them. And to me, granted not as a tester, can't see what she done wrong for her grade 3's. In test 1 It was for supposedly not giving right of way at a roundabout. But there is no car on the roundabout. The only car visible to her right is approaching from the road at her 3 o clock. Not even up at the line, but about 2 car lengths back. I could see her speed dropped as if yielding. And then increase when it was clear to proceed. There is a full view to the right at this roundabout and no obstructions. So i can see clearly on the video that there was nothing. In this test she got 1 grade 2.

And in test 4 she supposedly went through an orange pedestrian light when turning left from perpendicular road. But again, dash cam footage shows there was no orange light. I even looked through all footage in case tester told her wrong location. But nothing.

Are they just making things up for the craic? Ridiculous that she is now facing an 8th test for what to me looks like 2 non existent grade 3's and grade 2's resulting from contradictory marking. Absolute joke.

MascotDec85

Was she coming out of a junction from a side road onto a main road in 2nd?

Is she maybe misinterpreting what's being said.

What test preparation has she done and where is she sitting her test?

Skatedude

Bit strange all right, I was told by my instructor that the rules were " Start in first, Turn in second, Drive in forth and stop in third"

Not every car may be suitable is the gearing is too different, but the majority of cars should be ok?

Alanstrainor

I would echo what MascotDec85 has asked about the test preparation? I presume she is doing lessons and perhaps even pre-tests with her ADI?

Her instructor should be able to help with all these queries. If she has been doing plenty of lessons in between her tests, then perhaps it's time to try a new instructor? Because failing 7 times is far from the norm.

Also, given that each test will be different it is to be expected that there will be some variation in how things are marked, and the examiners are only human after all. But I don't think this could account for grade 3 marks as I would presume that such marks would be quite obvious to any examiner.

Wheety

The recent one being in her 6th test, she was told by the tester she failed because she was turning right in 2nd gear and that this should not be done. But this was in response to being told after the 5th test that she should roll into first for a right turn. And now today she got 4 grade 2's for gears because she was turning in second when safe to do so. So what is it? That's 3 tests failed due to different interpretations by testers.

Is it just me that reads this as she keeps turning right in 2nd despite being told not to? Sounds like she did it in 3 tests?

Alanstrainor

Wheety wrote: »

Is it just me that reads this as she keeps turning right in 2nd despite being told not to? Sounds like she did it in 3 tests?

Maybe I'm missing something here. But there is no hard and fast rule about being in a particular gear when turning one direction or the other. You must be in the correct gear for the situation at hand. This depends on the car, the speed of the car, are you on a hill, how tight is the turn etc etc. You cannot over simplify and say that "When turning right you must be in 2nd gear", because that does not make sense in all situations.

I really think that there was some misunderstanding here, or even many misunderstandings across all the tests.

Wheety

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something here. But there is no hard and fast rule about being in a particular gear when turning one direction or the other. You must be in the correct gear for the situation at hand. This depends on the car, the speed of the car, are you on a hill, how tight is the turn etc etc. You cannot over simplify and say that "When turning right you must be in 2nd gear", because that does not make sense in all situations.

I really think that there was some misunderstanding here, or even many misunderstandings across all the tests.

I agree. But if this has been mentioned 3 times, then perhaps it's a junction where you should be stopping and then moving into first gear before moving off. Maybe she didn't stop and continued to make the turn while dropping into 2nd? We don't really know unless we see it happening.

Neamhshuntasach

MascotDec85 wrote: »

Was she coming out of a junction from a side road onto a main road in 2nd?

Is she maybe misinterpreting what's being said.

What test preparation has she done and where is she sitting her test?

Nope. I could hear the audio of the conversation and the locations where he referenced the infractions.

They were right turns in housing estates. So onto roads of equal importance.

She done the 12 required lessons and some additional ones and 2 pre tests where both said they would expect her to pass if she drove like she did in their presence. Her father is also an advanced driving instructor within the Gardaí who has also given her lessons. And our neighbor is a retired tester from the Finglas test center who she brings to the shops once a week and does not understand how she has not passed. Alarmingly, she has mentioned something along the lines of, "You must not be in the 40% for the day" without developing on it more. And has also said wear your best lipstick a few times when i've been with them on the way to the shops. Not encouraging words for someone who has already shelled out hundreds and failing with questionable results.

Neamhshuntasach

Skatedude wrote: »

Bit strange all right, I was told by my instructor that the rules were " Start in first, Turn in second, Drive in forth and stop in third"

Not every car may be suitable is the gearing is too different, but the majority of cars should be ok?

I drive a 5.5 liter car which is automatic, but with some of these turns i find myself slowing down to a speed which might warrant 1st. Her car is a 1.4 Focus. And when i drive her car, i find myself going into 1st more on right turns as it's quite underpowered in 2nd. It's a heavy car for it's power. If i was to complete the turn in 2nd, it would have you struggling to cross into your lane.

Neamhshuntasach

Wheety wrote: »

Is it just me that reads this as she keeps turning right in 2nd despite being told not to? Sounds like she did it in 3 tests?

Sorry. I probably made things confusing due to the the numbers i was referencing. First 4 tests. Not even a grade 1 for gears.

In the 5th test, she got 4 grade 2's for gears and was told she was not utilizing 1st gear on right turns. Tester told her that on all right turns she should roll into first and sneak and peak. So she adjusted this for test 6.

And in test 6 she got 4 grade 2's for gears. The reasoning which was picked up on the camera as they were outside the car at the center being, she was going into 1st gear on right turns when she should be doing it in 2nd gear. She told him that the previous tester had failed her for the complete opposite last time. His answer, i'm not sure why that was.

And the most recent test, number 7, she got 4 grade 2's again for gears after she changed back to using 2nd gear for right turns. Again the audio picked up the conversation outside the car after the test and he said she's not using 1st when turning right. I've looked back at the footage she sent me and the only right turns where she was not queuing in traffic and would have to be in 1st, were onto roads of equal importance.

I'm at a complete loss as to how this is happening. Like what is she to do to pass. She got 3 grade 1's in all categories over tests 6 and 7. But 4 grade 2's in each for gears. It's frustrating the hell out of me as i travel for work a lot and she can't use the car by herself. When i'm home i always let her do the driving. And i'm very harsh on criticizing her. I've done advanced driving courses and i think i'm in a good position to know what is good and bad driving. And i literally can't fault her gear usage which a lot of the time covers the areas she is driving in the test.

J_R

Hi,

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding as to whither she is emerging or turning into a junction. ? Examiners are all "Trained to the same high standard" so the confusion more than likely is on your side. (That quote is one I received from the RSA Ballina a long time ago and it is more or less correct.). Also as other posters have said, there are a lot of variables, conditions change from moment to moment. One corner could be a 2nd gear, next time round there could be a van parked which blocks the view so it now must be a first gear

What does your instructor(s) say. Driving instructor must also be on the same wavelength as the examiners and if an examiner marks something contrary to the instructors teaching then he/she should immediately seek clarification from the RSA. Examiners can not discuss a test with a third party but they can (and do) clarify something in a general discussion.

(When I was an instructor I always sought an explanation - usually turned out to be a misunderstanding on the part of the pupil)

Re. The video. Do not think the examiners would be too happy if they knew they were on camera. Many years ago I was told it would be illegal to record a test.

Neamhshuntasach

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding as to whither she is emerging or turning into a junction. ? Examiners are all "Trained to the same high standard" so the confusion more than likely is on your side. (That quote is one I received from the RSA Ballina a long time ago and it is more or less correct.). Also as other posters have said, there are a lot of variables, conditions change from moment to moment. One corner could be a 2nd gear, next time round there could be a van parked which blocks the view so it now must be a first gear

What does your instructor(s) say. Driving instructor must also be on the same wavelength as the examiners and if an examiner marks something contrary to the instructors teaching then he/she should immediately seek clarification from the RSA. Examiners can not discuss a test with a third party but they can (and do) clarify something in a general discussion.

(When I was an instructor I always sought an explanation - usually turned out to be a misunderstanding on the part of the pupil)

Re. The video. Do not think the examiners would be too happy if they knew they were on camera. Many years ago I was told it would be illegal to record a test.

The video is a dash cam. Used for insurance purposes. Not to record the test. Also there is no footage of them on the camera. It does not record internally. There is no law or rule prohibiting recording externally. The camera is also very clear to a passenger in the car. Anyways, i wouldn't be using the footage as some form of complaint or sharing. Was just something i reviewed for my own curiosity.

Her instructor has no complaints regarding her right turns and gear selection. I should say instructors, as she has been out with a few. And not one complaint. Also nothing about gears in her first few tests. And she didn't change any driving habits. If there was no video for me to look at. I'd be thinking there must be something she is doing wrong. But with the speed limit up on the video i can tell when she is changing gears due to how the acceleration is with 1st vs 2nd. When turning in second the speed crawls which is just the nature of the underpowered heavy Focus. And it's not like she's just doing the same all the time. She is using 1st or second depending on the conditions. It was the contradictory blanket statement from the testers, that she shouldn't use 1st on a right turn if you don't need to stop or slow right down. And then you shouldn't use 2nd on a right turn regardless of whether you need to stop or slow right down. It was not like the statement was, there were instances where you selected the wrong gears. It was you shouldn't do this or that.

Fine about the above, as people can argue it's interpretation. But the 2 grade 3's for moving out in front of a car on a roundabout and going through an orange pedestrian light were a joke. They simply did not happen.

J_R

Hi,

only advice can give is to request a supervisor do the next test.

Re pedestrian crossings, I had a pupil fail for not stopping at a pedestrian crossing. There was two old women standing in the middle of the pavement having a chat, a few feet away from the pedestrian crossing. Pupil saw them in plenty of time, decided they had no intention whatsoever of crossing and carried on. she got a grade 3.

I complained but of course did no good as the decision stood. (Testers all same same as the Pope - infallible). But perhaps they had a word with the tester.

caldew

On page 7 of the leaflet "Check list for your driving test" it states "The use of any visual or audio recording equipment is not permitted during the test."


You stated earlier "The reasoning which was picked up on the camera as they were outside the car at the center being, she was going into 1st gear on right turns when she should be doing it in 2nd gear. She told him that the previous tester had failed her for the complete opposite last time. His answer, i'm not sure why that was."
How could this be picked up on the camera when all results and feedback are given in the test centre?

pm1977x

I took 1 test in my instructor's car which had a dashcam mounted in the middle near the rear view mirror. He disconnected it before the test as he warned me testers don't like them, tester got in the car and nearly freaked out when he saw the camera, I told him it was disconnected but had to remove the wire completely from it before he believed me, so maybe she's starting out at a disadvantage subliminaly or otherwise with the visible camera.

As above, never had a whisper out of an instructor before getting back to their desks but guess it's different depending on test centre.

Finally, I think she is focussing too much on "instructor said this, other guy said that, neighbour thinks this, partner says that..." and she's now understandably overthinking it. Once she's in full and proper control of the car and turning in the appropriate gear for the junction/speed/road conditions then the "1st or 2nd gear?" thoughts haunting her shouldn't be in play. I think she needs to put all previous tester comments aside and focus on doing what's right.

shietpilot

When I did my driving test I also had a dashcam mounted on the windshield. The tester noticed it and told me it's prohibited to record driving tests. I unplugged the power cable and then he told me I have to take it off the windshield.

I passed the test in the end though! I thought it was strange that recording is prohibited. If you're a professional doing your job professionally there's no reason why you should be prohibiting the use of recording devices, unless of course the RSA is trying to keep the test routes a "secret".

9935452

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

The video is a dash cam. Used for insurance purposes. Not to record the test. Also there is no footage of them on the camera. It does not record internally. There is no law or rule prohibiting recording externally. The camera is also very clear to a passenger in the car. Anyways, i wouldn't be using the footage as some form of complaint or sharing. Was just something i reviewed for my own curiosity.

Her instructor has no complaints regarding her right turns and gear selection. I should say instructors, as she has been out with a few. And not one complaint. Also nothing about gears in her first few tests. And she didn't change any driving habits. If there was no video for me to look at. I'd be thinking there must be something she is doing wrong. But with the speed limit up on the video i can tell when she is changing gears due to how the acceleration is with 1st vs 2nd. When turning in second the speed crawls which is just the nature of the underpowered heavy Focus. And it's not like she's just doing the same all the time. She is using 1st or second depending on the conditions. It was the contradictory blanket statement from the testers, that she shouldn't use 1st on a right turn if you don't need to stop or slow right down. And then you shouldn't use 2nd on a right turn regardless of whether you need to stop or slow right down. It was not like the statement was, there were instances where you selected the wrong gears. It was you shouldn't do this or that.

Fine about the above, as people can argue it's interpretation. But the 2 grade 3's for moving out in front of a car on a roundabout and going through an orange pedestrian light were a joke. They simply did not happen.

Definately pull the dash cam out of the car for the next test.
Testers will freak when they see it.
IMO because of the dashcam , your girlfriend starts the test with the tester disliking her.
Id also advise a different instructer to get lessons off of.
She could be getting contradictating advise off different people or taking it up incorrectly.
Maybe a different test centre/town. She could be getting nervous driving around spots where she was marked down in previous tests.

All that said i do know there are differences between testers .
I did the jeep/car and trailer test a few years back and the lad i got my lesson off of told me when reversing around the corner i could have one correction(pull forward and straighten up) Another town one correction and i would fail. 30 miles away as many corrections as you need and you would pass.

Best of luck to her in her next test

DrGuy

I've been a licensed driver in the USA since 1989, and have driven hundreds of thousands of miles in practically every type of weather and on all sorts of vehicles, including trucks with trailers. I've failed the driving test here four times, and I'm pretty sure that on at least two occasions the tester had already made his mind up about whether I was going to pass before I even started the test. It's a racket, designed to make money for the RSA, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with actual driving skill. They are knowingly failing competent drivers.

DrGuy

shietpilot wrote: »

When I did my driving test I also had a dashcam mounted on the windshield. The tester noticed it and told me it's prohibited to record driving tests. I unplugged the power cable and then he told me I have to take it off the windshield.

I passed the test in the end though! I thought it was strange that recording is prohibited. If you're a professional doing your job professionally there's no reason why you should be prohibiting the use of recording devices, unless of course the RSA is trying to keep the test routes a "secret".

They should be required by law to record the entirety of the test. They don't because they know they'll be caught failing people that they shouldn't.

J_R

Hi,

Testers themselves may not appear to mark consistently. They can take a persons overall driving standard into consideration when marking.

Just two examples

Had a young 17 year old girl clipped the wing mirror of a parked car. She passed. Examiner told her afterwards "It would be an absolute shame to fail you". She was a really exceptional driver. Same examiner gave a grade 3 to another pupil for exactly the same fault but this time she was a very mediocre driver. She badly needed more lessons and experience.

Read on here again and again " on reverse, hitting the kerb is a fail" I had a pupil who not alone hit the kerb, but did not realise she had hit it and carried on driving on the pavement. (Was a very low kerb). She told me afterwards, "I couldn't see the kerb, I couldn't see the kerb then I realised I was on the pavement, I asked the examiner could I do it again and he said no its not necessary". She passed, she was middle-aged, a good safe driver - perhaps not that great on reversing.

Examiners can act almost human at times.

Anybody that is prepared properly for the test will more than likely pass. Unfortunately there is always the possibility of making the odd stupid mistake or two.

Wee thing I noticed. Examiners seldom pass anybody. When a person comes out from the test center it is always, " I passed". If they fail it is almost always "The b**** failed me"

dennyk

I took the test as an experienced American driver and passed on my first go-round. The two grade 2s I got (both quite early in the test, one for going a bit faster than the tester liked on the small road out of the test center, one for being a bit too close to a parked car without slowing down enough) were certainly fair, but honestly I'd probably have given myself at least one or two more marks along the way if I was strictly going by the test standards. My reverse around the corner was sloppy as hell, for example (though I at least didn't hit the curb or leave my lane), and I know I made a few other similar minor errors here and there. It did kind of feel like the tester had decided that I could drive reasonably well and didn't bother marking any more minor faults after a bit. Didn't even get any grade 1s aside from the questions at the beginning (missed an obscure road sign, I think).

DrGuy

dennyk wrote: »

I took the test as an experienced American driver and passed on my first go-round.

Where did you take the test?

dennyk

DrGuy wrote: »

Where did you take the test?

Limerick, at the Mungret test center. No idea how it compares to other locations as far as how easy or hard it is, but it seemed a pretty standard set of housing estates mixed with a bit of city driving and one stretch of highway driving on the N18.

DrGuy

dennyk wrote: »

Limerick, at the Mungret test center. No idea how it compares to other locations as far as how easy or hard it is, but it seemed a pretty standard set of housing estates mixed with a bit of city driving and one stretch of highway driving on the N18.

I took mine in Finglas. All of the Dublin test centers are known for their high fail rates, and many for ridiculous reasons. One American said that he was failed because the tester didn't like his jacket, even though he admitted there wasn't any issue with his driving skill.

9935452

DrGuy wrote: »

I took mine in Finglas. All of the Dublin test centers are known for their high fail rates, and many for ridiculous reasons. One American said that he was failed because the tester didn't like his jacket, even though he admitted there wasn't any issue with his driving skill.

You would live to be a fly on the wall when people say things like that.
Personally i think your attitude counts for a lot as well.
Show the tester a bit of respect gets you off on the right foot.
Dont show respect and he will knock you for everything

kippy

9935452 wrote: »

You would live to be a fly on the wall when people say things like that.
Personally i think your attitude counts for a lot as well.
Show the tester a bit of respect gets you off on the right foot.
Dont show respect and he will knock you for everything

The same as almost any walk of life.
OP get her to change instructor for a couple of lessons.

caldew

DrGuy wrote: »

I took mine in Finglas. All of the Dublin test centers are known for their high fail rates, and many for ridiculous reasons. One American said that he was failed because the tester didn't like his jacket, even though he admitted there wasn't any issue with his driving skill.

I love it. You believe that someone failed because the tester didn't like his jacket (I'd love to know how they knew this was the reason) and you wonder why you have failed this most basic of tests 4 times.

:D:D