Non Farmer buying land, what grants/ other income is available?

DiarmaidGNR

Hi all,

I am in the process of buying a house with 10 acres.
As a non farmer, how can I get a return from the land?

Nearby dairy farmers are not interested in renting it, as it is steep land, and has not been looked after.

There are old farm buildings in disrepair also, I think there is a grant available to renovate these type buildings, but do I need to be a full time farmer to avail?..

Is forestry my only option?

Should I get a herd number, keep some sheep (low maintenence) and try for some grants?

Any info would be appreciated!

dev100

I think you may have to head off to farmers college to get grants these days. 10 acres would only be a hobby farmer . Set the field to a sheep farmer and let them graze it . Be warned farmers are notoriously mean for forestry 10 acres may be a bit small for commercial company to look at .

DiarmaidGNR

Thank you for the reply.

What forestry companies should I look into?

If I were to find a sheep farmer, what rental income could I expect? 100EUR/ acre per year?
Also, with regards to renting, would fencing be my responsibility? (I don't think any of the fields are secure..)

Farrell

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Hi all,

I am in the process of buying a house with 10 acres.
As a non farmer, how can I get a return from the land?

Nearby dairy farmers are not interested in renting it, as it is steep land, and has not been looked after.

There are old farm buildings in disrepair also, I think there is a grant available to renovate these type buildings, but do I need to be a full time farmer to avail?..

Is forestry my only option?

Should I get a herd number, keep some sheep (low maintenence) and try for some grants?

Any info would be appreciated!

Hi Diarmaid,
Can I assume budget is small & ground is overgrown?
If so could be best to rent out to a horse person for the winter, then in spring take soil samples & apply Fertilizer, maintain fences & purchase some dry cows or sheep.
You will need local Ag advisor to apply for a herd number, & advice on grants etc.

seanagh92

Hi,

I am currently looking at a house that has 12 acres of land with it. We are not sure what to do with the land and are looking for some ideas. We are not farmers, and do not have any experience in farming, and we both work full time so we are looking for a low maintenance way of using, and gaining some benefit from the land. It has a steep gradient which limits its uses.

Could money be made from planting the land? What grants and schemes are available for forestry?

Bass Reeves

First off you do not want forestry next to your dwelling. Your house will be shaded and you can have trouble with flies etc. Maybe setting a small wood in part of it may be an possible and to draw forrestry payment but you have to look at long term value of your property.

If land is steep then horses may be out as well. Local small beeffarmers may put a few cattle on it for the winter. In reality you will struggle to make an economis return on such a parcel of land. However that is not to say that it canniot be used for a lifestyle option by you. Sheep are far from low maintenance and can be tricky on steep land as they can rool on there backs and not get up. Even during the summer this can happen along with maggots etc.

At present you should consider looking for a beef farmer to put cattle on it for the winter to clean it off. I be more interested in getting the right lad rather than making my fortune. I even let it to him free for the winter in order to access him.

Down the line you can get a herd number put what cattle you are comfortable with on it. Get it into GLAS etc. Maybe talk to an advisor not sure what is Teagasc minimum advice yearly fee but it may be money well spend or talking to a local lad that has a similar small holding.

DiarmaidGNR

I would have thought having cattle out on it during the winter would mucky up at the fields, no?

Eggie99

I have a 14ac parcel away from main farm its very hilly to the point only half of it can be traveled by tractor to put out fertiliser etc, I keep 5/6 450kg 18 month old cattle each winter on it, it's not overly well drained and it has heavy enough soil, they do poach a little around gates but not to the point they are up to there bellies in gutter. they stay there from November to Feb or March depending on feed available. Also if you are thinking of buying cattle go for Angus or hereford. In my opinion you will buy a 450kg Angus for 2/300 euro cheaper than say a continental type animal, but you will get less when you sell too. But buying cheap and making mistakes costs a lot less then buying dear and making the same mistakes. You need a crush and shed to house sick animals to get your own herd number, but other than that it's just an inspection from the department to ensure you have the crush etc hope this help. And stay away from young stock to start, they can get sick very quickly and it can spread very vast so stay with 12/18mth cattle and ship them before 30 months to get the most money for them at selling time

DiarmaidGNR

Eggie99 wrote: »

I have a 14ac parcel away from main farm its very hilly to the point only half of it can be traveled by tractor to put out fertiliser etc, I keep 5/6 450kg 18 month old cattle each winter on it, it's not overly well drained and it has heavy enough soil, they do poach a little around gates but not to the point they are up to there bellies in gutter. they stay there from November to Feb or March depending on feed available. Also if you are thinking of buying cattle go for Angus or hereford. In my opinion you will buy a 450kg Angus for 2/300 euro cheaper than say a continental type animal, but you will get less when you sell too. But buying cheap and making mistakes costs a lot less then buying dear and making the same mistakes. You need a crush and shed to house sick animals to get your own herd number, but other than that it's just an inspection from the department to ensure you have the crush etc hope this help. And stay away from young stock to start, they can get sick very quickly and it can spread very vast so stay with 12/18mth cattle and ship them before 30 months to get the most money for them at selling time

Do they need to be fed meal over the winter, or can they live off the grass? Typically, how much are they to buy, and how much are they worth when selling at 30months?

Bass Reeves

Eggie99 wrote: »

I have a 14ac parcel away from main farm its very hilly to the point only half of it can be traveled by tractor to put out fertiliser etc, I keep 5/6 450kg 18 month old cattle each winter on it, it's not overly well drained and it has heavy enough soil, they do poach a little around gates but not to the point they are up to there bellies in gutter. they stay there from November to Feb or March depending on feed available. Also if you are thinking of buying cattle go for Angus or hereford. In my opinion you will buy a 450kg Angus for 2/300 euro cheaper than say a continental type animal, but you will get less when you sell too. But buying cheap and making mistakes costs a lot less then buying dear and making the same mistakes. You need a crush and shed to house sick animals to get your own herd number, but other than that it's just an inspection from the department to ensure you have the crush etc hope this help. And stay away from young stock to start, they can get sick very quickly and it can spread very vast so stay with 12/18mth cattle and ship them before 30 months to get the most money for them at selling time

Good advice but if you want to go down the low cost route Jersey cross weanlings will cost less than 200/head and good Fresians can be got for a bit with 300 euro. In 12 months time if they have enough feeding the Fresians will make a bit more than they wre bough in for. They will leave the same margin as the Angus and are nearly as hardy.


If there is enough grass for them and in general weanlings will live on very little. 1-2kg/day of a ration will leave you with good cattle. Lets say you had 5 on the 12 acres ( you can stock outside at 1LU/HA so in theory you could carry 7-8 of such cattle) feeding 7kg/day to 5 of them would be two 25kg bags/week. A good ration in a bag will cost 6.5-7 euro/bag so 13-15 euro/week. Good idea to give a bit extra minerals and vits but outside on rough land they may not need it for first 1-2 years.

_Brian

This is no way intended as a swipe at OP, but, it's a bit insulting to so openly tout the stereotype of farmers buying a bit of land and then being entitled to free money to do up buildings and sit back and enjoy the income as the cheques roll in.

It's this exact attitude towards farmers that has the notion that they are somehow coining in "cheques in the post". Farming is in a genuine crisis and this is why there is no real support from the general public - this is their attitude

DiarmaidGNR

_Brian wrote: »

This is no way intended as a swipe at OP, but, it's a bit insulting to so openly tout the stereotype of farmers buying a bit of land and then being entitled to free money to do up buildings and sit back and enjoy the income as the cheques roll in.

It's this exact attitude towards farmers that has the notion that they are somehow coining in "cheques in the post". Farming is in a genuine crisis and this is why there is no real support from the general public - this is their attitude

It wasn't meant as an insult. I just want to know how I can make some sort of return on my investment without going into full time farming.

From my own perspective on farming:
I know many farmers, some make a poor/no living, others make a great living, -while still complaining about how bad they have it!-One guy has a possible 2M net worth, has a steady dairy income, takes advantage of every scheme going, and still complains about not having cash. He probably spent 100k in the last year on suplimentary machinery. His definition of cash, must be different to my definition of cash.

Some couldn't afford to build sheds, while other built huge sheds with 90% grants.

I remember looking up the SFP payments a few years ago, and some of the payments would make your eyes water.

After a quick google:
"<Mod snip,> if you want to put in facts about SFP then averages would be more relevant.

And I'm sure there are farmers that work themselves to the bone, 7 days a week to make ends meat, all of their lives, and have nothing to show for it.

_Brian

What a shiit arsed post. Bla, bla, bla about net worth and google SFP for a tiny minority of farms.

It's just missing juvenile comments about new jeeps, trailers and shiny tractors with flashing beacons.

PDeel86

There is an afforestation scheme available from the Forest Service in the Department of Agriculture. The grant covers the planting, maintenance for 4 years and includes 15 years of premiums. The scheme is available to everyone not just Farmer's (this changed last year)

A Forester or local Teagasc advisor can clear up any questions. You will need a forester to apply for the grant.

I work in the Forestry Sector.

Eggie99

I think you have misunderstood the op, give him a chance, he is just looking for advice on how he can make the few Acres work for him as apposed to against him. Personal ID go beef cattle small numbers to start and get friendly with your farming neighbour's. When all else fails you might have to call on them for some guidence and help. BTW what did the previous owner of the land do with it, farming wise I mean

DiarmaidGNR

Eggie99 wrote: »

I have a 14ac parcel away from main farm its very hilly to the point only half of it can be traveled by tractor to put out fertiliser etc, I keep 5/6 450kg 18 month old cattle each winter on it, it's not overly well drained and it has heavy enough soil, they do poach a little around gates but not to the point they are up to there bellies in gutter. they stay there from November to Feb or March depending on feed available. Also if you are thinking of buying cattle go for Angus or hereford. In my opinion you will buy a 450kg Angus for 2/300 euro cheaper than say a continental type animal, but you will get less when you sell too. But buying cheap and making mistakes costs a lot less then buying dear and making the same mistakes. You need a crush and shed to house sick animals to get your own herd number, but other than that it's just an inspection from the department to ensure you have the crush etc hope this help. And stay away from young stock to start, they can get sick very quickly and it can spread very vast so stay with 12/18mth cattle and ship them before 30 months to get the most money for them at selling time

How quickly would your profit disappear when the vet is called?

greysides

_Brian wrote: »

What a shiit arsed post. Bla, bla, bla about net worth and google SFP for a tiny minority of farms.

It's just missing juvenile comments about new jeeps, trailers and shiny tractors with flashing beacons.

Mod:
_Brian, you're out of order on this one.

Now, let's get the thread back on track.

Eggie99

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

How quickly would your profit disappear when the vet is called?

Very quickly the vets love money, but which is cheaper call the vet and have a live animal or not bother and ring the knackery to collect them dead. if you buy healthy stock and have a bit of luck with them then you might break Evan. Or better still make a bob or two. As I keep telling my neighbors once they don't die you will get your money back at the very least.

Buford T. Justice XIX

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

How quickly would your profit disappear when the vet is called?

You're assuming there is a profit there to lose in the first place:D


Seriously though, the older animals would be an easier system for someone new to farming as they would have come across a large amount of the more common ailments and would be mostly immune. Younger animals need more care in terms of disease but would be better able to be kept out most (all?)of the winter without damaging the ground too much.

As Eggie99 asked there, what did the previous owner keep on the land?

Bass Reeves

OP
the thing about a vets call is he is expensive if you learn nothing from him. it is amazing what you can learn watching and listening to a vet. Most are very open and understand that Farming is a low margin business and that farmers need to make a profit.

You will learn to diagnosis illness etc. I am able to pare hooves and treat foot ailments from watching vets. Paid 2-3 time watched and learned.

kowtow

_Brian wrote:

It's just missing juvenile comments about new jeeps, trailers and shiny tractors with flashing beacons.

My beacons only flash because I can't afford to keep them lit full time.

Willfarman

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

It wasn't meant as an insult. I just want to know how I can make some sort of return on my investment without going into full time farming.

From my own perspective on farming:
I know many farmers, some make a poor/no living, others make a great living, -while still complaining about how bad they have it!-One guy has a possible 2M net worth, has a steady dairy income, takes advantage of every scheme going, and still complains about not having cash. He probably spent 100k in the last year on suplimentary machinery. His definition of cash, must be different to my definition of cash.

Some couldn't afford to build sheds, while other built huge sheds with 90% grants.

I remember looking up the SFP payments a few years ago, and some of the payments would make your eyes water.

After a quick google:
"<Mod snip,> if you want to put in facts about SFP then averages would be more relevant.

And I'm sure there are farmers that work themselves to the bone, 7 days a week to make ends meat, all of their lives, and have nothing to show for it.

Isn't the 2million euro man the man to ask about "every scheme going"?

Who2

Your at a hiding for nothing if you think you'll make anything off a parcel like that. No offence but you seem like you don't have a clue about animals and when experienced lads can't make a turn on them then I doubt you will. Rent it out on a no fee basis if they'll maintain and improve the ground and fence it. You might get a few quid of a horsey lad that's stuck but don't expect to make anything it's sad but it's the truth, there's absolutaly nothing in farming it, only hardship.

alps

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Hi all,

I am in the process of buying a house with 10 acres.
As a non farmer, how can I get a return from the land?

Nearby dairy farmers are not interested in renting it, as it is steep land, and has not been looked after.

There are old farm buildings in disrepair also, I think there is a grant available to renovate these type buildings, but do I need to be a full time farmer to avail?..

Is forestry my only option?

Should I get a herd number, keep some sheep (low maintenence) and try for some grants?

Any info would be appreciated!

Take no notice of the naysayers Diarmuid....too many in a profession they would have been far better off leaving years ago.

Congrats on your purchase and if you do decide idea to pit your skills in the farming world , the best of luck to you.

I have a city slicker friend who knew absolutely nothing about farming, bought a few acres and I can tell you has turned out to be the best beef farmer that I know. He has a logical business head, consumes research and applies the very best of grassland technology with animal husbandary to produce a top quality product for a respectable profit and massive satisfaction.

Listen to the positive lads, and there may be nothing more satisfying than tending to your few cattle in the morning before you head off to the big smoke.

Good loser

I don't think you can buy/get cattle without a herd number. The Dept will inspect before granting one. You will need a crush and holding space/area/shed.

If Dept inspector is any good he will advise you what to do. The perimeter will need to be fenced. Best get an electric mains fencer (cheap one) and a digital thermometer - learn how to take temperatures.

Read the Farmers Journal occasionally.

About 5 store cattle around 300 kg live would be enough for Winter.

Maybe give to a cattle farmer for 12 months and observe his ways of work.
Don't get a messer.

Bass Reeves

Who2 wrote: »

Your at a hiding for nothing if you think you'll make anything off a parcel like that. No offence but you seem like you don't have a clue about animals and when experienced lads can't make a turn on them then I doubt you will. Rent it out on a no fee basis if they'll maintain and improve the ground and fence it. You might get a few quid of a horsey lad that's stuck but don't expect to make anything it's sad but it's the truth, there's absolutaly nothing in farming it, only hardship.

It is not the fittest.....the most intelligent....that will survive but those that are willing to adapt.

OP asked a question. if he bought a cottage in Cliften or Kenmare and asked about grants or subsidies in another forum would lads be as haughty. Yes he asks a questions about the most subsidized industry in the EU and lads get defensive.

What has he done. He has done what a lot of farmers I know have not done bought land even though a small holding. Most f@@kers inherit it and have not got a clue about farming. Just because you are from a farming background and have been around cattle all your life will not mean that you can farm.

I came from a farming background. Left home at 17 years of age and had little to do with farming until I bought the farm I have. Never sat in control of a tractor until I bought it. Never spread Fertlizer, picked up a bale of hay or silage until I bought land. It is not f@@king rocket science.

In the United States at High School they have these achievements most likely to achieve etc. It is interesting that a lad that left school at inter cert( nowadays the Junior cert) said to my sister Bass bought and is a farmer of all the fellas I never expected that he would be a farmer, the world is a.strange place.

We are criticizing him for asking about the system. Yet loads of farmer's work the system to draw grants whether farming or college, to avoid tax, I could point out a lot more.

Some lads need to get off the horse.

TomOnBoard

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Hi all,

I am in the process of buying a house with 10 acres.
As a non farmer, how can I get a return from the land?

The way you framed your question suggests that the 10 acres is incidental to the buying of the house and is an "added value" that you would like to ensure returns something rather than just becoming 'habitat'.

If I'm right, then you're buying the property as a place to live and anything you get out of the land is a bonus. On that basis, the value from having access to 10 acres will be mostly about self- sufficiency/ subsistence living.On 10 acres, you could extract an enormous amount of benefit, if you are willing to manage it intensively. That is key! Forget about herding and such practices that require 1 or 2 acres per animal to even subsist. Think instead of the fact that such a holding, properly managed can grow a range of fruits/vegetables that will feed many, many people, along with a few goats, many hens, as well as enough wood to keep you warm and very healthy by keeping you fit while keeping it all in shape!

If you're the type who would prefer to surf the TV from the couch, forget it! The 10 acres will become, at best a minor headache and at worst, a huge chore/problem that will have to be managed on an ongoing basis. If that is your situation, they have it assessed for forestry. That will still make use of the land while giving you a bit of a premium as tax- free income. However, remember that if you go down that route the land is locked into forestry more or less forever.

Muckit

Good loser wrote: »

The perimeter will need to be fenced. Best get an electric mains fencer (cheap one) and a digital thermometer - learn how to take temperatures.

Yes, good advice. If the fencer goes over 100C it can start to self combust. Not good.

pedigree 6

Look up smallholders on twitter, facebook, etc.

Don't bother trying to farm for subsidies as that only suits large landholders.
You're better off looking at the land and trying to figure out
A) How much time can I put into this?
As Bass said are you willing to adapt and learn?
C)Make sure you have other income coming in if you want to try and make a venture from it.

As I say look up smallholders on the internet in Ireland, The UK, Europe, USA, etc, anywhere you can get information and maybe visit a few in Ireland if you can.
You have to be willing to try anything and put the work in.

Good Luck.

kowtow

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Look up smallholders on twitter, facebook, etc.

Don't bother trying to farm for subsidies as that only suits large landholders.
You're better off looking at the land and trying to figure out
A) How much time can I put into this?
As Bass said are you willing to adapt and learn?
C)Make sure you have other income coming in if you want to try and make a venture from it.

As I say look up smallholders on the internet in Ireland, The UK, Europe, USA, etc, anywhere you can get information and maybe visit a few in Ireland if you can.
You have to be willing to try anything and put the work in.

Good Luck.

Agree 100%

Forget subsidy altogether, you will find it costs you more in extra compliance & professional fees than it returns, even before you begin to value your time (which, employed elsewhere, is the thing you are going to be short of).

You will still need a herd no. if you are after cattle.

And if you want - really want - to run cattle then do it with all your heart and soul, take everything you have learned outside farming and use it as best you can in the business of food (it's the food business you are going in to, farming is not a business). Don't expect a financial return of any kind in the forseeable future, quite the opposite - there is capex involved in keeping even a few cattle safely in a way that will not worry you, your family, or alienate your new neighbours.

You won't be able to take the short cuts that others can, because you don't know what they are - and if you can't take shortcuts you'll need to either spend a bit more time or a bit more money at almost everything you do on the farm - but if you can stay on good terms with your neighbours and stick at it, you will pick up the farming bit as you go along, if you are at all cut out for it.

Who2

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It is not the fittest.....the most intelligent....that will survive but those that are willing to adapt.

OP asked a question. if he bought a cottage in Cliften or Kenmare and asked about grants or subsidies in another forum would lads be as haughty. Yes he asks a questions about the most subsidized industry in the EU and lads get defensive.

What has he done. He has done what a lot of farmers I know have not done bought land even though a small holding. Most f@@kers inherit it and have not got a clue about farming. Just because you are from a farming background and have been around cattle all your life will not mean that you can farm.

I came from a farming background. Left home at 17 years of age and had little to do with farming until I bought the farm I have. Never sat in control of a tractor until I bought it. Never spread Fertlizer, picked up a bale of hay or silage until I bought land. It is not f@@king rocket science.

In the United States at High School they have these achievements most likely to achieve etc. It is interesting that a lad that left school at inter cert( nowadays the Junior cert) said to my sister Bass bought and is a farmer of all the fellas I never expected that he would be a farmer, the world is a.strange place.

We are criticizing him for asking about the system. Yet loads of farmer's work the system to draw grants whether farming or college, to avoid tax, I could point out a lot more.

Some lads need to get off the horse.

If it's that easy tell me how any man can make 10 acres of overgrown ground on the side of a hill, pay for itself and give a return to a lad that will have to spend the first five to ten years trying to work out a system that might work for him. I've bought land was left land, built sheds and all the other stuff. I think the op needs to realise that farming for financial reward is an absolute waste of time. Let's say he gets a machine in on his ten acres and does a bit of clearing and tidying, he won't be long eating 2k up. Reseed that and lime it and bag it, at 400 an acre that's another 4k, then it'll have to be fenced it's hard to say but another 3k won't be long eaten up. Then there's the cattle pen and gates let's say he does a handy one for 1.5k now it's not looking bad but there's a lad with a trimmer need in and as it's probably the first cut in a while he'll be rooting for another .5-1k when that's all done water has to be brought out and a few drinkers put around another 500 won't be long eaten up. Now along with your cattle pen you'll need some form of shelter for a sick animal so let's go with an old lorry container at 800. When that's all complete and you've probably spent another 350-400 on a teagasc advisor the man will probably be pulling his hair out and wondering what in the name of god was I thinking? Now away to the mart and buy a few weanlings and be happy if you can turn 200 clear per year on them. Like I said it's sad but true if you can make them figures stack up and make a few quid then your wasted farming.