Why can't we leave the clocks on summertime year round?

midnight city

Harvey Normal wrote: »

That bugs me too. At least do it end February.

Dead right then we would only have 4 months of what feels like the depth of winter.

pedigree 6

Right thanks to a pm from the powers above, I have included a poll on this subject.
So if you would like the time to stay the as it is vote Yes.
If you would like the clocks to go back an hour on Saturday night vote No.
There is also a don't know option.

Please everyone vote.

Agricola

silverharp wrote: »

out of curiosity what happens in night clubs these days, I have this fr Ted picture in my head where at 2am the bar staff put the clocks back one hour, and someone shouts out "more drink!" to loud applause

Used to hope for that too but closing time was closing time as usual!

freshpopcorn

I'm somebody who loves the lead up to Christmas and the clocks going back is part of this for me.
I'd howeve think they could put the clocks back in late November and bring them forward at the start of March.
I just think the mornings in December would be to dark especially for children going to school.
I think the UK kept the Summer time in the late sixties/early seventies and it wasn't a success!

Tombo2001

Its really simple. Kids shouldn't be walking to school in the dark.

El_Duderino 09

freshpopcorn wrote:

I think the UK kept the Summer time in the late sixties/early seventies and it wasn't a success!

What happened that made it not a success?

freshpopcorn wrote:

I just think the mornings in December would be to dark especially for children going to school.

Tombo2001 wrote:

Its really simple. Kids shouldn't be walking to school in the dark.

This is the argument that occurs most often and it seems perfectly satisfying for lots of people so I think it's fair to ask what it's based on. Are there a lot more accidents involving school children when it's dark? Do t most children wear a high vis vest, helmet and a zorbing costume, just to all to the shop these days anyway?

Do children actually walk to school on their own in winter? Should children be walking to school on their own if it's so dangerous?

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

freshpopcorn

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What happened that made it not a success?

I did read an article and it said their were a lot of accidents I'm the morning during the period but few in the evening. So its hard to know. It was around the same time drunk driving laws were introduced so it's hard to tell.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

This is the argument that occurs most often and it seems perfectly satisfying for lots of people so I think it's fair to ask what it's based on. Are there a lot more accidents involving school children when it's dark? Do t most children wear a high vis vest, helmet and a zorbing costume, just to all to the shop these days anyway?

Do children actually walk to school on their own in winter? Should children be walking to school on their own if it's so dangerous?

Lots of children/teenagers I'm rural areas have designated collection point for school buses in rural and theirs no street lighting and with the amount of cars on the I do think it would be dangerous.

El_Duderino 09

freshpopcorn wrote:

Lots of children/teenagers I'm rural areas have designated collection point for school buses in rural and theirs no street lighting and with the amount of cars on the I do think it would be dangerous.

Presumably those same children are dropped off at those drop points in the dark in the evening after school? Sounds like a zero sum to me. Wouldn't choosing better prop off points be more practical? Changing the time zone for the whole country seems a bit like an over reaction.

freshpopcorn

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Presumably those same children are dropped off at those drop points in the dark in the evening after school? Sounds like a zero sum to me. Wouldn't choosing better prop off points be more practical? Changing the time zone for the whole country seems a bit like an over reaction.

There's more factors than just children to take in is say.
School buses in my area generally have primary school children dropped off just after three and secondary before half four so they'd never be in the dark in the evenings. In rural areas their aren't really well lit areas for collection points in my experience often the most lit area would be primary school.

Cee-Jay-Cee

In Australia the town of Coolangatta has two time zones as the border runs down the middle of it so people living on the QLD side are one hour behind those living on the NSW side of the border as QLD don't change their clocks (as they have sense and know that's its pointless) It causes masses of confusion for people working in one state but residing in the other.

Completely irrelevant to the discussion going on here but I don't care.

El_Duderino 09

freshpopcorn wrote:

There's more factors than just children to take in is say. School buses in my area generally have primary school children dropped off just after three and secondary before half four so they'd never be in the dark in the evenings. In rural areas their aren't really well lit areas for collection points in my experience often the most lit area would be primary school.

So standing in the dark is only likely to be a problem for primary school children. The demographic is getting smaller. Shouldn't primary school children be supervised by someone in charge of them anyway?

Isn't that just part of the normal risk of leaving the house? Wouldn't high vis vests be a more measured solution?

Changing the time school starts and ends would be a more measured solution than changing the time zone for the whole country to protect primary school children who should he supervised anyway.

freshpopcorn

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So standing in the dark is only likely to be a problem for primary school children. The demographic is getting smaller. Shouldn't primary school children be supervised by someone in charge of them anyway?

Isn't that just part of the normal risk of leaving the house? Wouldn't high vis vests be a more measured solution?

Changing the time school starts and ends would be a more measured solution than changing the time zone for the whole country to protect primary school children who should he supervised anyway.

There's probably more reasons than just the school issue!

El_Duderino 09

freshpopcorn wrote:

There's probably more reasons than just the school issue!

There are reasons. Some people like the clocks to change because it's part of the excitement of Christmas.

Good reasons, on the other hand, are very hard to come by. Even those who are certain threshold are good reasons, aren't sure what those reasons actually are.

freshpopcorn

Here is attached the estimated sun rising times and sun setting times for the month of December.
If the clocks didn't go back December would be a very dark month.

hot buttered scones

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So standing in the dark is only likely to be a problem for primary school children. The demographic is getting smaller. Shouldn't primary school children be supervised by someone in charge of them anyway?

Isn't that just part of the normal risk of leaving the house? Wouldn't high vis vests be a more measured solution?

Changing the time school starts and ends would be a more measured solution than changing the time zone for the whole country to protect primary school children who should he supervised anyway.

I was thinking the same thing, but then where does that leave working parents?
Surely the best solution is to stick to GMT the year round?

Clea

biko wrote: »

Afaik wintertime is normal time and summertime is the "special" adjustment.

This is correct, winter time is "original" time, the clock is changed in summer for the reason that is beyond me. The biggest nonsense ever. I can't wait for this to be over, there are so many countries who already stopped being crazy just because everybody else is.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Not in Ireland. We use IST (Irish Standard Time) in the summer.

Not strictly true, as IST is specifically classified as a Daylight Saving time zone.

sunbeam

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Here is attached the estimated sun rising times and sun setting times for the month of December.
If the clocks didn't go back December would be a very dark month.

Latest sunrise where I am on the Mayo coast is 08.59am and it takes about another 20 minutes for it to clear the mountains. Earliest sunset is 4.17pm, again disappearing behind the hills just before 4. http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear.php is great for calculating times for any given location as is LunaSolCal on Android.

Have to say I'd really prefer if we stayed on IST-I hate those dark evenings.

hot buttered scones

Clea wrote: »

This is correct, winter time is "original" time, the clock is changed in summer for the reason that is beyond me. The biggest nonsense ever. I can't wait for this to be over, there are so many countries who already stopped being crazy just because everybody else is.

We will always be tied to what the UK does for both political and economic reasons. Sunrise and sunset in London today is 7:42 and 17:46. Whereas is Galway it 8:24 and 18:13 - 45 minutes or so behind. We should probably be in a different time zone (UTC-1) with no DST, but I can't ever see a situation where people have to adjust their watches when crossing the border.

wakka12

Its stupid. The light will still be the same regardless of the given time, if you want bright mornings or evenings then just out and enjoy it without a clock telling you to

hot buttered scones

wakka12 wrote: »

Its stupid. The light will still be the same regardless of the given time, if you want bright mornings or evenings then just out and enjoy it without a clock telling you to

Unfortunately, what with work or school or college most people are on a timetable. I'm sick of it. I don't mind them going back so much, but it takes me ages to adjust when they go forward again the Spring.

hot buttered scones

sunbeam wrote: »

Latest sunrise where I am on the Mayo coast is 08.59am and it takes about another 20 minutes for it to clear the mountains. Earliest sunset is 4.17pm, again disappearing behind the hills just before 4. http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear.php is great for calculating times for any given location as is LunaSolCal on Android.

Have to say I'd really prefer if we stayed on IST-I hate those dark evenings.

I just posted something similar below. In the summer then, it's bright until about 10:30pm, whereas is dark in most of Europe by that time. I kind of like that though.

sunbeam

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I just posted something similar below. In the summer then, it's bright until about 10:30pm, whereas is dark in most of Europe by that time. I kind of like that though.

Yeah, I remember suggestions several years ago that we should stay on IST for the winter and put our clocks a further hour on in the summer to line us up with CET. Totally impractical of course, but if we did that we'd almost be in the land of the midnight sun in June.

Laois_Man

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Does this happen all over the world this weekend?

No

In the US, their clocks don't go back until a week after ours and they put theirs forward 2 weeks before us, making their wintertime 3 weeks shorter than ours overall

topper75

Quackster wrote: »

Firstly, the day of latest sunrise is not actually December solstice but occurs about ten days later. Secondly, the rate by which sunrise gets earlier in the first few months of the year is less than the rate sunrise gets later in the last few months of the year.

The reason for this apparent asymmetry is because the length of a day varies throughout the year but we use a fixed average of 24 hours to keep time.

The good news is the evenings start getting longer from about the 12th December!

Yes but look at the material effect: A 'spring forward' change on the last Sunday in FEBRUARY as opposed to March would see an 08:30 sunrise. That ain't so bad, and in fact is akin to what have in anyway in late January.

The clocks back thing is alright but its the five-month duration that needs to be looked at. Four months would be enough.

Clea

Summer savings by country, e.g. countries that have - - - >> means they do not move the clock. I envy them all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_by_country

nice_guy80

Go to Sweden or Norway and on sunny days people stand on street corners and in parks just soaking up the vitamin D

Swedes are obsessed about a sun holiday in the middle of winter. Thailand is full of them

El_Duderino 09

freshpopcorn wrote:

Here is attached the estimated sun rising times and sun setting times for the month of December. If the clocks didn't go back December would be a very dark month.

December is a very dark month no matter what way you slice it. There isn't anything you can do about that. Heonhs around d December do have some extra light and it's wasted in the morning when it could be spent in the evening when most people have free time.

Next week will have sunset before most people leave work at 5 and sunrise before 7.30. That makes no sense whatsoever.

freshpopcorn

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

December is a very dark month no matter what way you slice it. There isn't anything you can do about that. Heonhs around d December do have some extra light and it's wasted in the morning when it could be spent in the evening when most people have free time.

Next week will have sunset before most people leave work at 5 and sunrise before 7.30. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Well if the clocks didn't go back it would be dark until nearly ten of clock in the morning I think if your in either education or working standard hours it would be horrible having at least the first hour of days in darkness.
It was tried and was a failed experiment in the UK!

El_Duderino 09

freshpopcorn wrote:

Well if the clocks didn't go back it would be dark until nearly ten of clock in the morning I think if your in either education or working standard hours it would be horrible having at least the first hour of days in darkness.

As I said, December is a right off either way but as it stands the last 2 hours are dark in December. Why on earth is that not a problem but the first hour being dark would be so dreadful?

I don't care whether it's dark for the first hour or the last hour. I do care about the light that's wasted in the morning while most people aren't even out of the house - november and march particularly.

A Dub in Glasgo

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

As I said, December is a right off either way but as it stands the last 2 hours are dark in December. Why on earth is that not a problem but the first hour being dark would be so dreadful?

I don't care whether it's dark for the first hour or the last hour. I do care about the light that's wasted in the morning while most people aren't even out of the house - november and march particularly.

Why don't you get up an hour earlier in December then?

freshpopcorn

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

As I said, December is a right off either way but as it stands the last 2 hours are dark in December. Why on earth is that not a problem but the first hour being dark would be so dreadful?

I don't care whether it's dark for the first hour or the last hour. I do care about the light that's wasted in the morning while most people aren't even out of the house - november and march particularly.

It doesn't really effect me but I did read a bit about the subject a few years ago and it did fail when it was tried out in the UK. There were people really keen for the change but when it did happen it lasted for a few years and it was decided to go back to the old system!

El_Duderino 09

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Why don't you get up an hour earlier in December then?

If we just leave the clocks alone it wouldn't be an issue. I've to be in work for 9 so it would be worth nothing to me in the morning. In the evening after work the light would be useful. Sociable at least.

freshpopcorn wrote:

It doesn't really effect me but I did read a bit about the subject a few years ago and it did fail when it was tried out in the UK. There were people really keen for the change but when it did happen it lasted for a few years and it was decided to go back to the old system!

Can you imagine if the clocks were never changed. I now imagine trying to convince people to change time zone for 5 months a year. Your be made out to be a crazy person. Its only done now because it was always done. Leaving the clocks alone would

El_Duderino 09

Leaving the clocks alone would be so easy

A Dub in Glasgo

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If we just leave the clocks alone it wouldn't be an issue. I've to be in work for 9 so it would be worth nothing to me in the morning. In the evening after work the light would be useful. Sociable at least.

Keeping the way we do it now benefits others, you can benefit from the earlier daylight in the morning by getting up an hour earlier - win, win

Quackster

topper75 wrote: »

Yes but look at the material effect: A 'spring forward' change on the last Sunday in FEBRUARY as opposed to March would see an 08:30 sunrise. That ain't so bad, and in fact is akin to what have in anyway in late January.

The clocks back thing is alright but its the five-month duration that needs to be looked at. Four months would be enough.

I totally agree. I think we should adopt the same schedule as North America as not only would this mean three weeks less winter time, it would also mean European time zones and American time zones would maintain a constant relationship throughout the year.

But as the dates for beginning and ending European summer time are regulated by the EU, that decision is not ours to make.

Peregrinus

Quackster wrote: »

I totally agree. I think we should adopt the same schedule as North America as not only would this mean three weeks less winter time, it would also mean European time zones and American time zones would maintain a constant relationship throughout the year.

But as the dates for beginning and ending European summer time are regulated by the EU, that decision is not ours to make.

Not all parts of North American observe daylight saving time, and those that do do not all make the switch on the same day. This is true not just between different North American countries, but even within North American countries.

Europe is far more co-ordinated on this that North America is, and if there is to be agreement on standard days for making the switch, it's obvious that the existing European standard days should be adopted, since there are no North American standard days. Plus, far more people live in the EU than in North America, so having North Americans make the switch will inconvenience fewer people.

But the fact is that there is a limit to the amount of co-ordination that you can hope to acheive. Whether daylight saving makes sense at all and, if it does, what form of daylight saving, and when it should take effect, is determined to a large extent by geographical factors which - by definition - will vary from place to place.

El_Duderino 09

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Keeping the way we do it now benefits others, you can benefit from the earlier daylight in the morning by getting up an hour earlier - win, win

So far the list of people who would benefit stretches as far as some primary school children who have drop off points in the countryside. However children are presumably under supervision anyway so I'm not sure how much it would benefit them in reality though.

Who else benefits? Traditionalists? A couple of posts said here just be over benefits but they didn't say what they are

A Dub in Glasgo

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So far the list of people who would benefit stretches as far as some primary school children who have drop off points in the countryside. However children are presumably under supervision anyway so I'm not sure how much it would benefit them in reality though.

Who else benefits? Traditionalists? A couple of posts said here just be over benefits but they didn't say what they are

So far, the list of people who benefit with a change are folk on here who do not want to get up an hour earlier to benefit from the lighter mornings

El_Duderino 09

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

So far, the list of people who benefit with a change are folk on here who do not want to get up an hour earlier to benefit from the lighter mornings

7am isn't the most sociable hour of the day. But of course I could get up and shoehorning in some activity or other.

Changing time zone for the whole country try is a but drastic without at least a good reason except the sunset of primary school children in the countryside who have bus drop off points that are also in the country try side and don't have any lighting who are being supervised anyway. That's a niche group, changing time zones for the country try is a bit like overkill.

Who are all the rest of these people who benefit from the change? Surely the case doesn't rest on a few children. There must be at least some good reasons. Maybe there are but nobody can think of them.

Quackster

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not all parts of North American observe daylight saving time, and those that do do not all make the switch on the same day. This is true not just between different North American countries, but even within North American countries.

Europe is far more co-ordinated on this that North America is, and if there is to be agreement on standard days for making the switch, it's obvious that the existing European standard days should be adopted, since there are no North American standard days. Plus, far more people live in the EU than in North America, so having North Americans make the switch will inconvenience fewer people.

But the fact is that there is a limit to the amount of co-ordination that you can hope to acheive. Whether daylight saving makes sense at all and, if it does, what form of daylight saving, and when it should take effect, is determined to a large extent by geographical factors which - by
definition - will vary from place to place.

By North America I mean the US and Canada where daylight saving begins on the second Sunday of March and ends on the first Sunday in November. Of course, not all parts observe summer time - individual states/provinces can choose weather or not to do so just as individual countries in the EU can do likewise (although all EU states currently observe daylight saving).

Central America & the Caribbean, being at or near tropical latitudes, would seem to have little to gain from observing daylight saving, although some parts do.

Right2Write

pedigree 6 wrote: »

I like my bright evenings.:mad:

I like my bright mornings! If we didn't adjust the clocks, it'd be dark past 8 in the morning. Horrible

biko wrote: »

Afaik wintertime is normal time and summertime is the "special" adjustment.

Indeed it is, 'winter time' is based on the sensible premise that there should be roughly the same amount of daylight either side of mid day / noon. Get's bright at 7am, gets dark at 5pm.

OP, just get up earlier.

Right2Write

In fact, the logical thing to do would be just to keep the clocks on 'winter time'. Our ancestors never worried about these things, they just got up when it got bright and tended towards the fire & leaba when it got dark.

Capt'n Midnight

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Usually people go on about farmers being the reason for this.

Totally true. They get docked if they show up to work late.

Or maybe, just maybe farmers do most of their work during daylight hours ?

Capt'n Midnight

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its really simple. Kids shouldn't be walking to school in the dark.

Only one in four walk anymore.

Also if schools hours were different to work hours then traffic congestion would be much reduced. Or use school buses.

Anyway in a few years time it'll be self driving cars with infra red sensors and stuff.

long range shooter

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Go to Sweden or Norway and on sunny days people stand on street corners and in parks just soaking up the vitamin D

Swedes are obsessed about a sun holiday in the middle of winter. Thailand is full of them

Have you ever lived in the artic circle?
You know its nearly 24 hour daylight in the summer and nearly complete darkness in the wintermonths.
So vitamin D is an important factor for sure.

JupiterKid

I hate when the clocks to back. I hate it getting dark at 5pm in the late afternoon.

Rant over.

Laois_Man

This Irish MEP seems to be majorly confused!

An Irish MEP has argued that the clocks should not go forward again next year.

Deirdre Clune, Member of the European Parliament for Ireland South, has said that removing Daylight Savings could promote safety on Irish roads and benefit people’s health.

“Brighter evenings would lead to improved outcomes for road safety as the roads are more dangerous from the hours of 4-7pm.

"There are obvious economic benefits such as reduced energy consumption because of less need for artificial light in the evenings with a consequent reduction in CO2 emissions," she said.

“Brighter evenings would have a positive benefit for public health.

"One study of 23,000 children, published by the BBC, found that their daily activity levels were 15 to 20 per cent higher on summer days than winter days and that moving the clocks back causes a five per cent drop in physical activity.”

Why do we have to pay people who can't even think straight?

http://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/national/were-turning-the-clocks-back-this-weekend-but-heres-why-one-irish-mep-believes-we-should-stop-daylight-savings/ar-AAjy3zj?li=BBr5KbJ

hytrogen

Try changing times zones every two/three days and having one day advance while retarding an hour for a month. Then you've crossed the Pacific from India to 'Merica like I did, & still in recovery!