The cost of travelling to work is becoming unsustainable

Emme

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1011/823151-iarnrod-eireann-car-park/

I am sick of being screwed for my hard earned salary by all and sundry. Sick of trying to find a seat on a train in the morning full of people who don't pay anything to travel and could more than likely travel on a later train if they wished. Sick of racketeering extortionist borderline criminal car park operators who make the Kray twins look like amateurs. A woman who put her valid parking ticket upside down in her car was clamped in my local train station car park.

It is getting to the stage where it is costing me too much to travel to work and I might be better off sitting on my backside all day on benefits. I am not the only person who feels this way. No offence to those who lost their jobs through no fault of their own in recent years. However the cost of working is getting more and more unsustainable. Increases in car tax, car insurance, commuting ticket costs and now parking costs at the local train station. Throw the odd clamping fine in for good measure.

This government seems to be hell bent on destroying rural Ireland and locating as many jobs in Dublin as possible What incentive is there to work in this country when the roads to Dublin are clogged every morning by 7am, rail travel costs a fortune, rent and housing in the Dublin is unaffordable for people on an average salary and if you live outside the city and commute most of your disposable income is eaten up by commuting costs.

No wonder some people don't see the point of working.

Carawaystick

Where do you live and where do you work?
How does an increase in car tax or car insurance affect the cost of travelling to work? You'ld have to pay that if you had a car and didn't work. You even have to pay it if you just get the train and don't use your car.

Emme

Carawaystick wrote: »

Where do you live and where do you work?
How does an increase in car tax or car insurance affect the cost of travelling to work? You'ld have to pay that if you had a car and didn't work. You even have to pay it if you just get the train and don't use your car.

If you have a car and you work an increase in car tax or car insurance will affect the cost of travelling to work. If you don't work then it doesn't matter because the taxpayer is indirectly paying for your car and tax insurance.

Carawaystick

I have a car. I paid my motor tax yesterday. It cost 200, where it used to cost 104.
I cycle to work.
The cost to me getting to work has not increased. The cost of having a car has.
If I don't work the same taxpayer i.e. me is paying my motor tax.

If you posted your commute, it's likely posters would suggest lower cost alternatives, if they exist.

n97 mini

Emme wrote: »

If you have a car and you work an increase in car tax or car insurance will affect the cost of travelling to work. If you don't work then it doesn't matter because the taxpayer is indirectly paying for your car and tax insurance.

If you drive to the station in Carlow you could make your next car an EV. €120 tax and free parking *and* free electricity from the charge point in the Irish Rail car park.

whisky_galore

n97 mini wrote: »

If you drive to the station in Carlow you could make your next car an EV. €120 tax and free parking *and* free electricity from the charge point in the Irish Rail car park.

Very useful for the tiny number of people who own glorified milk-floats.

n97 mini

whisky_galore wrote: »

Very useful for the tiny number of people who own glorified milk-floats.

Don't knock it till you've tried it

cython

Emme wrote: »

If you have a car and you work an increase in car tax or car insurance will affect the cost of travelling to work. If you don't work then it doesn't matter because the taxpayer is indirectly paying for your car and tax insurance.

I don't drive to work, but I do work and own a car that I use at evenings, weekends and on days off. As a result increases in the cost of motor tax and insurance feature as an increased cost of lifestyle, for want of a better term, but not an increase in the cost of me getting to and from work. Of course you might be suggesting that so long as you use the car to travel to work, the increases feature as an increased cost of getting to work, but that is only true if you would otherwise not own and operate the car if you were not working. To say that "If you don't work then it doesn't matter" is being more churlish than anything else, as plenty of people do not work but still have to run a car at the cost of something else, regardless of where the money comes from.

In any case, overall I think you're missing the point that motor tax and insurance are pretty much fixed expenditures in the context of car ownership, and as I said, you can really only classify increases in those costs them as increases in your cost of commuting/travelling to work if the only reason you have the car is because you need it for travel to work.

KingBrian2

Emme wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1011/823151-iarnrod-eireann-car-park/

I am sick of being screwed for my hard earned salary by all and sundry. Sick of trying to find a seat on a train in the morning full of people who don't pay anything to travel and could more than likely travel on a later train if they wished. Sick of racketeering extortionist borderline criminal car park operators who make the Kray twins look like amateurs. A woman who put her valid parking ticket upside down in her car was clamped in my local train station car park.

It is getting to the stage where it is costing me too much to travel to work and I might be better off sitting on my backside all day on benefits. I am not the only person who feels this way. No offence to those who lost their jobs through no fault of their own in recent years. However the cost of working is getting more and more unsustainable. Increases in car tax, car insurance, commuting ticket costs and now parking costs at the local train station. Throw the odd clamping fine in for good measure.

This government seems to be hell bent on destroying rural Ireland and locating as many jobs in Dublin as possible What incentive is there to work in this country when the roads to Dublin are clogged every morning by 7am, rail travel costs a fortune, rent and housing in the Dublin is unaffordable for people on an average salary and if you live outside the city and commute most of your disposable income is eaten up by commuting costs.

No wonder some people don't see the point of working.

Well as you say free travel is allowed in certain cases and cycling is one of the fastest growing ways of travelling around the city. I would love less cars on the streets in the future but again I live within Dublin so I can see how it would be enormously hassle some for country people.

Emme

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Well as you say free travel is allowed in certain cases and cycling is one of the fastest growing ways of travelling around the city. I would love less cars on the streets in the future but again I live within Dublin so I can see how it would be enormously hassle some for country people.

When I lived in Dublin I cycled everywhere. I was far happier and healthier than I am now. Unfortunately I couldn't afford to buy as a single person so I ended up getting a place between Carlow and Athy.

Jamie2k9

No increase for annual holders and I suspect rates overall won't go up much.

Emme

Emme wrote: »

...........

It is getting to the stage where it is costing me too much to travel to work and I might be better off sitting on my backside all day on benefits..............

So you reckon you could keep your abode etc funded on benefits?

Emme wrote: »

When I lived in Dublin I cycled everywhere. I was far happier and healthier than I am now. Unfortunately I couldn't afford to buy as a single person so I ended up getting a place between Carlow and Athy.

Emme

Deedsie wrote: »

And you work in Dublin?

Does that surprise you? I'm not the only one in the area who does. Platforms are full at Carlow and Athy stations with commuters every morning and apart from schoolchildren getting off at Athy most of them get off at Heuston.

Augeo wrote: »

So you reckon you could keep your abode etc funded on benefits?

I wouldn't think so and I certainly wouldn't want to. However it gets frustrating seeing a fair chunk of your wages go on travel costs. Travel costs aren't the only thing that's rising, there's insurance, car tax and then things not relevant to this forum such as food, prescription drugs, house insurance and health insurance. Everything is going up except workers' wages.

_Kaiser_

Deedsie wrote: »

Not surprised, I just don't understand why you moved away from Dublin if that's where you work? No matter how cheaper a house is in Carlow/Kildare the cost of commuting, financially and anxiety/stress wise would surely add up to the cost of a place somewhere in Dublin or just to rent a place.

The problem presumably is (s)he didn't qualify for a mortgage in Dublin (or anywhere closer) and renting is a mess in this country generally, but particularly in Dublin at the moment because of the lack of supply and rocketing rents as well as the point that no-one (government, landlords or most tenants) treats renting as anything more than a temporary stepping stone on the glorious road to home ownership - something to endure for a while but not something to make a home of.

I sympathise.. I too commute from that sort of distance because it just wasn't worth paying that sort of money JUST to be close to the office - and while yes, commuting isn't cheap (in my case I drive), I pay less than half what I would in Dublin for a similar place (and thus don't have to house share which was fun in my 20s but not so much these days), and am lucky that my job allows me flexible hours and work from home rights.

If this country is going to insist on pushing property ownership as the goal and solution to its problems, while at the same time restricting the supply of that property (both deliberately through the likes of NAMA and FG policy, but also by the refusal to build UP rather than OUT) then we're going to continue to see overcrowded trains and roads for the foreseeable future.

After all, it's all happened before and not that long ago either!

dev100

Deedsie wrote:

Not surprised, I just don't understand why you moved away from Dublin if that's where you work? No matter how cheaper a house is in Carlow/Kildare the cost of commuting, financially and anxiety/stress wise would surely add up to the cost of a place somewhere in Dublin or just to rent a place.

It's a double edged sword. Can't afford a home in Dublin move out to afford a home.

There's a lot of like minded people who do this . It's a big shock to couples or families who move down the country to afford a home . Sounds good on paper .... place in country ....get an affordable mortgage . Then the reverse happens it nearly costs more in time and money. it's scary when some people don't factor in the full costs of living in commuter counties.

Unfortunately that's life

dunworth1

I believe that there's jobs outside of Dublin

Nomis21

In 2007 I lived in Carrickmacross, Co Monaghan and I found a job very easily:

I drove a commuter bus taking workers to Dublin every morning and bringing home at night. The bus left about 6.00am and took about 3 hours each way due to traffic congestion. The bus got back at night around 9.00pm.

I have driven buses for 30 years in many countries, but the people on that bus were the most miserable people I ever saw in my whole career as a bus driver.

dev100

Nomis21 wrote:

In 2007 I lived in Carrickmacross, Co Monaghan and I found a job very easily:

Ay god anyone near the the cavan border would have have to be miserable . But it's a long day if you are working in Dublin and not home till all hours .

Banjoxed

Nomis21 wrote: »

In 2007 I lived in Carrickmacross, Co Monaghan and I found a job very easily:

I drove a commuter bus taking workers to Dublin every morning and bringing home at night. The bus left about 6.00am and took about 3 hours each way due to traffic congestion. The bus got back at night around 9.00pm.

I have driven buses for 30 years in many countries, but the people on that bus were the most miserable people I ever saw in my whole career as a bus driver.

That is masochism in its purest form. If I lived in Carrickmacross I'd drive to Dundalk and take the train to Dublin instead.

Banjoxed

Banjoxed wrote: »

That is masochism in its purest form. If I lived in Carrickmacross I'd drive to Dundalk and take the train to Dublin instead.

Be better taking the bus from Dundalk tbh. :P

Banjoxed

Deleted User wrote: »

Be better taking the bus from Dundalk tbh. :P

Well if that is the sort of thing you like, then that is the sort of thing you would like. :pac:

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

......both deliberately through the likes of NAMA and FG policy.........

Lots of folks didn't buy pre boom, during the boom or post boom and come out with this speel.

It's not FG policy that has people in their 30s/40s complaining about rent costs and not being able to get mortgages, there needs to be IMO an element of people accepting they are where they are largely due to themselves and the choices they made.

Same logic applies to long commuters, we all make choices, choices have consequences.

I bought my first property in 2005 so I got burned to an extent but I don't blame FG, FF or Nama for my choices.

n97 mini

There is something insane about commuters having 100km+ commutes to Dublin. But not as insane as the low rise building regulations in Dublin. The docklands areas should be full of high rise. IFSC is Dublin's answer to Canary Wharf... yeah right!

Banjoxed

n97 mini wrote: »

There is something insane about commuters having 100km+ commutes to Dublin. But not as insane as the low rise building regulations in Dublin. The docklands areas should be full of high rise. IFSC is Dublin's answer to Canary Wharf... yeah right!

Oh yeah. Four houses to an acre, oversubscribed Catholic schools in suburbs that effectively have to be driven from. Yup, Dublin is really going to clean up :rolleyes:

If our administrative masters hadn't rigidly pursued a policy of managed decline and rural sprawl then we'd be a realistic contender post Brexit. As it is, we aren't

pilly

Only solution is to look for a job closer to where you live, even if it's less well paid. You'll save a whole load of money and stress.

There's nothing like working close to home.

Balmed Out

whisky_galore wrote:

Very useful for the tiny number of people who own glorified milk-floats.

I test drove a leaf for a few days when finished with a mazda 6 before buying an Avensis. They are a fantastic car and a no brainer from a financial point if you have a commute the range suits. I didn't get it simply as the boot isn't big enough for two buggies etc to satisfy my wife. Still keep an eye on them and hope to buy one in future.

Keedowah

Banjoxed wrote: »

That is masochism in its purest form. If I lived in Carrickmacross I'd drive to Dundalk and take the train to Dublin instead.

The Carrickmacross bus leaves at 6:45 and gets to Dublin at 8 - goes up the motorway and through the port tunnel - much faster than driving. - signed: Miserable Sob

weldoninhio

It's a joke. I work in Coolock, live in Rush. 25km door to door. And it costs me €120 a month on work related travel on buses that are less than reliable.

That's using a Leap Taxsaver card. It's a farce.

magicbastarder

it costs you €120 gross or net?

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

It's a joke. I work in Coolock, live in Rush. 25km door to door. And it costs me €120 a month on work related travel on buses that are less than reliable.

That's using a Leap Taxsaver card. It's a farce.

€6/day to get to and from work and you are complaining :pac:
Unreal.

_Kaiser_

Augeo wrote: »

Lots of folks didn't buy pre boom, during the boom or post boom and come out with this speel.

It's not FG policy that has people in their 30s/40s complaining about rent costs and not being able to get mortgages, there needs to be IMO an element of people accepting they are where they are largely due to themselves and the choices they made.

Same logic applies to long commuters, we all make choices, choices have consequences.

I bought my first property in 2005 so I got burned to an extent but I don't blame FG, FF or Nama for my choices.

I'm not talking about boom-time decisions. I'm talking about the situation in the last 5 years where the powers that be have actively stoked another property-obsessed economy as the basis of a "recovery" while simultaneously keeping huge amounts of residential property off the market via NAMA or selling it at knock-down prices to overseas investors who then swoop in and hike the rents hugely for tenants.

But because "owning a house" is seen as the measure of success in this country, who cares about reforming the rental sector as a REAL long-term alternative to ownership or commuting workers stuck on the M50 every day, right?

Result: Once again many people can't afford to buy in Dublin, many more are struggling to pay rent, and still others are again commuting from 2-counties-over (just as their older friends and relatives did a decade ago!) because it's all they can afford.

And those problems absolutely can be laid at the feet of the majority partner in the current administration.

Mortpourvelo

Augeo wrote: »

€6/day to get to and from work and you are complaining :pac:
Unreal.

Agreed, I have to cough up nearly 4 grand a year to get from Portlaoise.

And OP - Emme ? Could not agree with your points more.

Ticket inspector working the train that leaves Limerick about half five in the morning (btw, two stops after Portlaoise and precious few seats left).

The number of social welfare passes compared to paying punters was horrific.

Would it kill them to get a later train ? Or at least wind the brats down to a dull roar ???

Typical Ireland though, you work and you contribute and you're last on the list for anything.

_Kaiser_

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Agreed, I have to cough up nearly 4 grand a year to get from Portlaoise.

And OP - Emme ? Could not agree with your points more.

Ticket inspector working the train that leaves Limerick about half five in the morning (btw, two stops after Portlaoise and precious few seats left).

The number of social welfare passes compared to paying punters was horrific.

Would it kill them to get a later train ? Or at least wind the brats down to a dull roar ???

Typical Ireland though, you work and you contribute and you're last on the list for anything.

I could well be wrong but isn't there a restriction on the hours these passes can be used on Dublin Bus (or maybe it was a proposal?) If not then there certainly should be. Paying commuters/workers should have priority at peak times IMO

pilly

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I could well be wrong but isn't there a restriction on the hours these passes can be used on Dublin Bus (or maybe it was a proposal?) If not then there certainly should be. Paying commuters/workers should have priority at peak times IMO

No restriction, which is ridiculous. They should definitely be restricted during rush hour. I think the problem was with kids getting to school though. Maybe they could just allow it for adults travelling with kids or something?

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

...........

But because "owning a house" is seen as the measure of success in this country, who cares about reforming the rental sector as a REAL long-term alternative to ownership or commuting workers stuck on the M50 every day, right?...........

Presumably those renting.


Who like yourself seem to be good at finger pointing but to my earlier point "Lots of folks didn't buy pre boom, during the boom or post boom and come out with this speel"

There is no long term alternative to ownership unless you have the means to rent until you die pr are happy being in the social housing lottery in your elderly years.

You mention the last 5 years, plenty reasonably priced housing for sale in that window. Blame FG now there's not? Did you credit them when houses were cheap? I think not.

whisky_galore

Augeo wrote: »

unless you have the means to rent until you die.

You can't take it with you...

pilly

Augeo wrote: »

Presumably those renting.

Who like yourself seem to be good at finger pointing but to my earlier point "Lots of folks didn't buy pre boom, during the boom or post boom and come out with this speel"

There is no long term alternative to ownership unless you have the means to rent until you die pr are happy being in the social housing lottery in your elderly years.

In many countries people rent property for their entire lifetime, it's not impossible. Ireland is just not set up for it.

newacc2015

dev100 wrote: »

It's a double edged sword. Can't afford a home in Dublin move out to afford a home.

There's a lot of like minded people who do this . It's a big shock to couples or families who move down the country to afford a home . Sounds good on paper .... place in country ....get an affordable mortgage . Then the reverse happens it nearly costs more in time and money. it's scary when some people don't factor in the full costs of living in commuter counties.

Unfortunately that's life

I think the biggest cost people ignore is their children going to college. I know a ton of Dubliners whose parents moved to commuter towns for the massive generic 4 bed bungalow for 'cheaper housing'. Then when they had to go to college, their parents put them into rental accommodation as their studies were suffering with 2-3 hour commutes each way.

No one seems to factoring in having 2/3 children in rented accommodation in Dublin for 4 years is close to €80k.

Del2005

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I could well be wrong but isn't there a restriction on the hours these passes can be used on Dublin Bus (or maybe it was a proposal?) If not then there certainly should be. Paying commuters/workers should have priority at peak times IMO

There used to be a restriction it was removed years ago. Apparently people with the free pass where annoyed with not being able to get to hospital appointments in the morning, it never dawned on them that they could pay like the rest and get there.

LirW

Augeo wrote: »

There is no long term alternative to ownership unless you have the means to rent until you die pr are happy being in the social housing lottery in your elderly years.

You mention the last 5 years, plenty reasonably priced housing for sale in that window. Blame FG now there's not? Did you credit them when houses were cheap? I think not.

Where I come from the rental market is also struggling with offering a long-term alternative. There have been unlimited rental agreements with the restriction of rent increase not higher than the inflation. I lived in an apartment like that and if my whole situation wouldn't have changed I would've stayed in that place for a very long time. To be fair, the building quality was really good, so it's not comparable with the average Dublin apartment.
Unfortunately in the recent years, most management companies tried to withdraw these contracts to turn in into short term agreements - usually 2 years and afterwards hiking the rent up. This leaves people not being able to buy in the same situation.

In all fairness, I do not understand the Irish prejudice when it comes to apartments. The poor building quality of whats on the market is a fair point, but in general it seems like they are seen either as investment or housing for the poor. I'd have no problem buying a good apartment for my family to live in for a lifetime.


Your point of fairly priced houses: My MIL is selling her mothers house with her siblings. It's based in Santry and even though the place is in pretty bad shape, they'll still get at least 300k for this dump (had the valuation 2 weeks ago). I would have no clue how I could fork that out much money for a run down place.
On the northside of Dub the only affordable areas are actually some where lots of people wouldn't even set a foot in (I can already here my MIL talk about certain areas and how she'd never visit there :rolleyes: ).
Dublin altogether is just barely affordable for a good amount of people.

endacl

My bike is free at this point. The only cost in running it is the belly I'd otherwise have.

..... site needs a <smug> smiley....

whisky_galore

pilly wrote: »

In many countries people rent property for their entire lifetime, it's not impossible. Ireland is just not set up for it.

Renting is thought of something students or what 'people waiting to get on the property ladder' do...something interm quirky thing that people in their 20's/30's do before they grow up, get married and get proper houses and start firing babies out like all good decent Irish people are supposed to.

end of the road

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I could well be wrong but isn't there a restriction on the hours these passes can be used on Dublin Bus (or maybe it was a proposal?) If not then there certainly should be. Paying commuters/workers should have priority at peak times IMO

why should we get priority. public transport is for everybody. not just those of us who work. lets say we did get priority, what would happen if they're was still severe overcrowding and you couldn't get a seat? we prioritise people earning over or under a certain amount?
you don't actually pay for a seat unless you reserve one, you actually pay to travel on the service.

Carlos Orange

end of the road wrote: »

you don't actually pay for a seat unless you reserve one, you actually pay to travel on the service.

Which you can't do if the bus/train is completely full which did happen sometimes when I commuted.

end of the road

psinno wrote: »

Which you can't do if the bus/train is completely full which did happen sometimes when I commuted.

the train doesn't have a legal limit as to how many it can take unlike the bus though.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

.........

You mention the last 5 years, plenty reasonably priced housing for sale in that window. Blame FG now there's not? Did you credit them when houses were cheap? I think not.

LirW wrote: »

.......


Your point of fairly priced houses: My MIL is selling her mothers house with her siblings. It's based in Santry and even though the place is in pretty bad shape, they'll still get at least 300k for this dump (had the valuation 2 weeks ago). I would have no clue how I could fork that out much money for a run down place..............
Dublin altogether is just barely affordable for a good amount of people.

My point referred to the last 5 years, not the present moment.

Emme

end of the road wrote: »

the train doesn't have a limit as to many it can take unlike the bus though.

Yes it does. I have seen pregnant women jammed up against train corridor doors fainting and/or vomiting because of overcrowding. At one stage it was so bad that the morning Waterford Heuston trains often had to stop en route to get ambulances for passengers who became unwell. I was one of those. Fainted getting onto the train, got trampled by other people getting on and IR had to call an ambulance for me.

Do you propose employing pushers like some Japanese see railways? If so trains should put in hanging straps ans provide sick bags for passengers.

Carlos Orange

end of the road wrote: »

the train doesn't have a limit as to many it can take unlike the bus though.

You seem unfamiliar with the basic laws of physics.

end of the road

Emme wrote: »

Yes it does. I have seen pregnant women jammed up against train corridor doors fainting and/or vomiting because of overcrowding. At one stage it was so bad that the morning Waterford Heuston trains often had to stop en route to get ambulances for passengers who became unwell. I was one of those. Fainted getting onto the train, got trampled by other people getting on and IR had to call an ambulance for me.

Do you propose employing pushers like some Japanese see railways? If so trains should put in hanging straps ans provide sick bags for passengers.

no it doesn't. you don't have to like it and by all means don't, but they're is no legal limit on the amount of passengers a train can take. i have never said that is fine, so read what i actually wrote rather then what you wanted me to have written.

Alun

end of the road wrote: »

so read what i actually wrote rather then what you wanted me to have written.

You edited it after psinno replied to add the 'legal' bit!

Grandeeod

I'm an oldie on these forums. Reading this and other similar threads reminds me of 2006 and the very same threads on boards. History repeats itself. We are meant to learn from history. Its the best education you can avail of.

Alas, we did nothing but talk the talk about transport needs and housing all those years ago. Recession delivered an "excuse". The slow slow recovery is now re-awakening, the same old problems.

Nothing has changed.