The cost of travelling to work is becoming unsustainable

appfry

Donal55 wrote: »

Careful now. All the elderly and those on the dole will be getting ready now to take all the seats on the trains, buses and Dart from those who are net contributors!

Im around mid 40s now. Ill be banned from the train soon enough. Might as well have my last few spins on it.

magicbastarder

darlett wrote: »

Are you frigging kidding me? I mention rising rents/house prices and congestion. And you come back to me with something about half the price of...STAMPS? Because in rural Ireland it's double...

calm down, darling. it's an example of a single service which on the face of it, costs 4 times as much to provide in rural areas.
you happily ignored the other point in the same post, regarding provision of electricity.

the stats are old, but there's no reason to believe they're not broadly similar today:
"Attempts to curb one-off housing date to a 1976 study by An Foras Forbartha. The report, Urban Generated Housing in Rural Areas, contrasted the costs of servicing closely-knit development (five- metre house frontages) with dispersed residences (58-metre frontages).

It found that mail delivery to the widely-dispersed housing is 3½ times more expensive. Waste collection costs are 2½ times greater. Phone and electricity connections are between two and five times more expensive. Footpath provision and public lighting are 11 to 13 times more expensive."
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/downside-of-one-off-rural-housing-1.376468

the issue in question is not people living outside the major population areas. it's the considerably denucleated character of the population.

ClovenHoof

Ireland has no rural areas. It has the world's largest suburb made up of one off houses and ribbon developments.

Rural Ireland was murdered by its own. This is the price we are all paying for Farmer Paddy's second-uncle's cousin in the planning office.

pilly

ted1 wrote: »

Why am i joking ? For ten years I was driving 50km a year, 2.5 years ago I changed jobs and am now office based, I have a 40km commute each day (20km each way) in Jan it'll increase to 70km each day or 1 hour 25 each way.

I'm 16 stone in my late 30s. Cycling is a very legitimate form of transport

So you cycle 40kms a day even if it's lashing rain or gail force wind? Really?

magicbastarder

it's not that far - i used to do the same (google maps tells me it was about 44km a day - less than an hour each way on the bike, typically.
my employer has good facilities for cyclists though.

n97 mini

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Rural Ireland was murdered by its own. This is the price we are all paying for Farmer Paddy's second-uncle's cousin in the planning office.

And Fianna Fail, who have been pro rural settlement since Dev's time. Every time An Post (or anyone else) tries to bring rural costs down, their TDs start thinking about the next election and how that might damage their chances.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/postal-deliveries-rural-households-could-8992837

Nomis21

magicbastarder wrote: »

i cannot take you seriously any more.

I am serious about this...

I am in my 60's, retired, and moved to Rural County Offaly from Dublin city recently.

I knew no one in Offaly when I came here. I joined a hospitality exchange that I found online and am now hardly ever alone at home.

Without internet I could not live where I do.

Chuchote

Nomis21 wrote: »

I think if someone retires from work at 66 years old and is occupying a property in the city centre of Dublin they should get every encouragement to move into a remote area as they are benefiting society in the city and also by moving to a remote area they contribute financially to an area which likely is in need of some financial input.

I have friends in their 60s who moved out to rural areas and commuted in their 40s. Now, needing local shops, in some case access to hospitals and other factors, they are moving back into the city.

Nomis, what's a hospitality exchange, please?

darlett

magicbastarder wrote: »

calm down, darlett. it's an example of a single service which on the face of it, costs 4 times as much to provide in rural areas.
you happily ignored the other point in the same post, regarding provision of electricity.

the stats are old, but there's no reason to believe they're not broadly similar today:
"Attempts to curb one-off housing date to a 1976 study by An Foras Forbartha. The report, Urban Generated Housing in Rural Areas, contrasted the costs of servicing closely-knit development (five- metre house frontages) with dispersed residences (58-metre frontages).

It found that mail delivery to the widely-dispersed housing is 3½ times more expensive. Waste collection costs are 2½ times greater. Phone and electricity connections are between two and five times more expensive. Footpath provision and public lighting are 11 to 13 times more expensive."
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/downside-of-one-off-rural-housing-1.376468

Ok Magic. On the emotive subject of city dwellers subsidising people in one off houses let calmness reign.

I don't know about the stamps, so I'll leave that to post office experts. I would query if a house say a mile or 2 away from a small town will put up prices 4 times, 3.5 times, or even double, but no doubt it is a cost built in to the price of stamps, a burden shared bravely by all. As Nomis21 mentions though the internet is a great help... and as such my annual national postage costs are fairly negligible.

Waste collection costs. I'm not sure how much it actually costs in the city but we pay a private company for that one. I'm assuming you do too? Either way don't worry you don't subsidise those out in the sticks for that.

Up to recently there was a flat rate of about €130 for a telephone connection. If someone builds somewhere that costs more than this than yes it is going to push up the costs so we all our providing a subsidy for this one off connection cost.

When you need an ESB connection you tell them where you live and apply for a quote based on where you live, and you will pay the costs associated with connecting your house to grid. You don't subsidise those out in the sticks for that.

Footpath provision and public lighting are...what now? Get away out of that, send me a picture. :pac:

A couple more. We take care of our own sewerage needs. Not sure how that works in urban areas, maybe you do too.

The cost of water supply. :rolleyes: Yes we have to go there. Safe to say the guy out in the sticks is more likely subsidising you than vice versa. By all accounts the water system is creaking with rusty pipes and the like which will seemingly cost absolute millions and millions to upgrade and maintain and which under the current system everybody contributes their taxes towards whether they paid for and maintain their own water well or not.

This is the way a nation of tax-payers works, we all pay for things that might not seem to benefit us directly but your assertion that you're subsidising one off housing is heavily simple. I also believe that city life is improved and the cost of housing reduced by not having everybody living there...

Apologies for any inaccuracies in these, I'm not sure what Eir costs are etc and I don't know about bin costs and sewerage in the city. I understood they used to be free for some, but perhaps not anymore?

Nomis21

Keedowah wrote: »

The Carrickmacross bus leaves at 6:45 and gets to Dublin at 8 - goes up the motorway and through the port tunnel - much faster than driving. - signed: Miserable Sob

When I worked for Collins in 2007 it didn't!

Chuchote

We all subsidise each other.

But when young people talk about what old people should do, it's a bit like mansplaining; they haven't experienced the life and the needs of the old.

Nomis21

Chuchote wrote: »

I have friends in their 60s who moved out to rural areas and commuted in their 40s. Now, needing local shops, in some case access to hospitals and other factors, they are moving back into the city.

Nomis, what's a hospitality exchange, please?

Sites where people can invite each other to stay in their home for a few days free of charge.

Hospitality exchange are sites like couchsurfing.com

Chuchote

Nomis21 wrote: »

Sites where people can invite each other to stay in their home for a few days free of charge.

Hospitality exchange are sites like couchsurfing.com

Sounds lovely.

Grandeeod

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Ireland has no rural areas. It has the world's largest suburb made up of one off houses and ribbon developments.

Rural Ireland was murdered by its own. This is the price we are all paying for Farmer Paddy's second-uncle's cousin in the planning office.

I would like to make a more positive response to your post, but the last time I did, got me a red card. There is a very clear agenda on boards lately and I don't even think they themselves even realise it.

We should head to the retirement home and watch as these younger bucks spontaneously combust at the mere mention of stuff not being built as we relieve ourselves into ourcolostomy bags smiling happily.

Nomis21

Chuchote wrote: »

Sounds lovely.

It is lovely.

We all need social contact,whether it's community meetings in your local village or backpackers from around the World dropping in from over 40 countries (So far), we all need it.

Annasopra

Nomis21 wrote: »

I am serious about this...

I am in my 60's, retired, and moved to Rural County Offaly from Dublin city recently.

I knew no one in Offaly when I came here. I joined a hospitality exchange that I found online and am now hardly ever alone at home.

Without internet I could not live where I do.

Great.

I'm delighted you can do it.

For individuals if it works then great. As a policy its an awful idea.

Emme

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What? hive off old people into rural isolation?

Sounds like a horrendous policy

This makes no sense whatsoever. Old people should live where they want. Living in a rural area is a disadvantage for older people because hospitals and health services are further away. Many older people are no longer able to drive and if they live in rural areas they depend on people to drive them places. Also regional hospitals don't offer the range of facilities that larger city teaching hospitals do. Ask anyone who has elderly parents in poor health living in a rural area.

Grandeeod wrote: »

You'd swear rural Ireland was back in famine times the way some go on.

Compared to Dublin parts of rural Ireland might as well be back in famine times.

whisky_galore

Chuchote wrote: »

We all subsidise each other.

But when young people talk about what old people should do, it's a bit like mansplaining; they haven't experienced the life and the needs of the old.

One generation is quite happy to fcuk over the other for their own ends, it has been shown older workers nearing retirement are quite willing to pull up the ladder on new entrants.

Chuchote

whisky_galore wrote: »

One generation is quite happy to fcuk over the other for their own ends, it has been shown some older workers nearing retirement are quite willing to pull up the ladder on new entrants.

FYP

KingBrian2

Emme wrote: »

Compared to Dublin parts of rural Ireland might as well be back in famine times.

Talk about over exaggeration.:pac:

Grandeeod

Emme wrote: »

Compared to Dublin parts of rural Ireland might as well be back in famine times.

And herein does lay the reason why TDs and Governments in general soak up this poor me, begging bowl approach from rural Ireland, while Dublin City gets pounded into the ground over and over again and again. Yes Dublin is a nice little cash cow for rural rared folk to come and make a living, but it appears it can **** right off, if it requires cash to deliver sustainable public transport.

KingBrian2

Yeah Grandeeod the city is in a right state at the moment. Can't wait until they get that Luas line finished.

Emme

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/public-transport-passengers-facing-hikes-of-up-to-18pc-as-further-industrial-action-looms-35185291.html

The lucky people are in Sallins/Naas and Kilcock. The rest are screwed again.

Arcade_Tryer

whisky_galore wrote: »

Renting is thought of something students or what 'people waiting to get on the property ladder' do...something interm quirky thing that people in their 20's/30's do before they grow up, get married and get proper houses and start firing babies out like all good decent Irish people are supposed to.

Disagree. It's more to do with the dysfunctional rental market in Dublin.

ted1 wrote: »

Because if your not working you don't need to be anywhere.

You're right. No need to attend that job interview. Just wait at home to be head hunted!

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Ireland has no rural areas. It has the world's largest suburb made up of one off houses and ribbon developments.

You'll have to elaborate here for the fools like myself.

whisky_galore

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Disagree. It's more to do with the dysfunctional rental market in Dublin.

There's a whole country outside of Dublin last time I looked.

Emme

whisky_galore wrote: »

There's a whole country outside of Dublin last time I looked.

And it costs a fortune to travel from the country outside of Dublin to Dublin where most of the jobs are. Taxsaver tickets are going up by 6% - more expense!

Arcade_Tryer

whisky_galore wrote: »

There's a whole country outside of Dublin last time I looked.

This thread is about the increasing cost of travelling to work in Dublin last time I looked.

XPS_Zero

Emme wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1011/823151-iarnrod-eireann-car-park/

Sick of trying to find a seat on a train in the morning full of people who don't pay anything to travel and could more than likely travel on a later train if they wished. Sick of racketeering extortionist borderline criminal car park operators who make the Kray twins look like amateurs. A woman who put her valid parking ticket upside down in her car was clamped in my local train station car park.

It is getting to the stage where it is costing me too much to travel to work and I might be better off sitting on my backside all day on benefits. I am not the only person who feels this way. No offence to those who lost their jobs through no fault of their own in recent years. However the cost of working is getting more and more unsustainable. Increases in car tax, car insurance, commuting ticket costs and now parking costs at the local train station. Throw the odd clamping fine in for good measure.

This government seems to be hell bent on destroying rural Ireland and locating as many jobs in Dublin as possible What incentive is there to work in this country when the roads to Dublin are clogged every morning by 7am, rail travel costs a fortune, rent and housing in the Dublin is unaffordable for people on an average salary and if you live outside the city and commute most of your disposable income is eaten up by commuting costs.

No wonder some people don't see the point of working.

I feel your anger. Because of our tax system and preference for means tests over universal plans for things like healthcare the middle in Ireland have always been screwed because they pay for everything but are entitled to very little, but that is getting better in some areas like extension of medical cards (in phases) to everyone starting with kids and new childcare plans.

I remember working and having the perception that there was a class of people free loading and how angry it made me, but I've since learened that it's really not like that, it just seems that way anecdotally

(People who don't pay anything)
I assume you're referring to free travel pass holders. Very few of them would be traveling at rush hour, very few pensioners in particular. All but maybe 15% are not working as they're disabled or retired. Those with a non permanent disability (cancer or recovering from a suicide attempt) are allowed work part time as they transition back to work and if their hours are just after rush hour they have to go to work, they CANT just travel later.
Carers also have FT cards for good reason (though I don't see why they can't just travel on the caree's card with a +C dunno why they need their own) and work full time so also can't travel later.

At most 25% of the people traveling with you have passes as that's the total of travelers with them, it's virtually impossible for them to fill the train to an extent that there's no seats.

There's no seats because years of chronic underinvestment in public transport with a growing population means the systems even more packed than it would be st rush hour normally.

The benefits are not great and you'd not prefer them. Average industrial wage is about €600 a week, "benefits" is 188, even if you factor in rent allowance (which contrary to myth you don't get just because you're on welfare in fact it's v hard to get now) and a medical card (you'll use once in a blue moon) it's still not worth it

Nobody wants to destroy rural Ireland in fact if anything rural TDs due to their numbers have a disproportionate influence. Rural areas are MASSIVELY subsidised by urban ones because they expect the same civil infrastructure without the population density. The latter being the reason big transport projects are done more in Dublin: population density which rural Ireland doesn't have. Despite this we still started the WRC project.

We erect, via the EU, enormous trade barriers to protect rural agriculture (which helps starve the developing world out of our markets) and do massive subsidies on top of that.

The government doesn't decide where to locate jobs, were not China, we don't have a centrally planned economy we have a social market economy along with the rest of the EU, businesses put jobs where workers have the right skills and the right infrastructure exists. In the latter case big cities will always have an advantage as you can get your people to work on time with a fast metro or Luas instead of a slow trundling Bus Eireann coach that has to go halfway around the planet to round them up. Support services are closer by, there's already a more integrated electrical/ sewage / water / broadband network to plug into.

The middle class worker is getting screwed in this country but it's far more constructive to direct our energies at real policies doing damage not at inaccurate perceptions of rural urban divides or believing there's an entire class living it up having a great life while we toil.

Even the small fraction of welfare lifers very few have DSP passes as they're on jobseekers and you don't want their life believe me, it's not easier to live as a skanger, no decent person would trade places with them, they only think they're the clever ones and were the dopes because they've never lived a normal existence.

XPS_Zero

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Carers also have FT cards for good reason (though I don't see why they can't just travel on the caree's card with a +C dunno why they need their own) and work full time so also can't travel later.

At most 25% of the people traveling with you have passes as that's the total of travelers with them, it's virtually impossible for them to fill the train to an extent that there's no seats.

Carers cannot work full time, unless you mean tending to the person they are caring for. They are only allowed work 12 hours outside of this.

XPS_Zero

"Emme wrote: »

I wouldn't think so and I certainly wouldn't want to. However it gets frustrating seeing a fair chunk of your wages go on travel costs. Travel costs aren't the only thing that's rising, there's insurance, car tax and then things not relevant to this forum such as food, prescription drugs, house insurance and health insurance. Everything is going up except workers' wages.

This is why it's a big mistake imo for ps unions to demand pay hikes if they focused on cost of living things and service provision things would be much better

If like the rest of Europe we had an NHS we do t need the health insurance (which is basically s giant scam - pay premiums then when sick pay again anywY all for the perception of getting a faster scan for mostly non emergency treatment), also takes care of the scripts, Brexit which is out of our control will push food prices way up as many foods are made in ROI and processed in NI or vice Versa and trade tariffs will reek havoc on that, thank our reactionary English cousins for that one

Our insurance market may be a cartel it needs way more competition.

Augeo wrote: »

I bought my first property in 2005 so I got burned to an extent but I don't blame FG, FF or Nama for my choices.

Don't blame yourself either, it was buy now or the price goes up more. The fault lies with a mix of consumers not saying no and triggering a demand drop and this price drop, banks fuelling a bubble and govt and opposition policy of the day being in favour of fuelling that bubble even more

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Agreed, I have to cough up nearly 4 grand a year to get from Portlaoise.

And OP - Emme ? Could not agree with your points more.

Ticket inspector working the train that leaves Limerick about half five in the morning (btw, two stops after Portlaoise and precious few seats left).

The number of social welfare passes compared to paying punters was horrific.

Would it kill them to get a later train ? Or at least wind the brats down to a dull roar ???

Typical Ireland though, you work and you contribute and you're last on the list for anything.

Er...people with passes have:

1. Worked for FOURTY YEARS or
2. Can't work from long term disability or
3. Have a pass and ARE working

I find it very hard to believe a 5:30 am train was filled with passes, and if it was those were NOT casual journeys, who would make a casual journey at that hour ESP if sick or old? You're talking people going to work (just like you...) or an important journey.

It really annoys me to see people bashing the weakest in society or in this case a generation that worked their asses off to fund your education, healthcare etc all your life

Del2005 wrote: »

There used to be a restriction it was removed years ago. Apparently people with the free pass where annoyed with not being able to get to hospital appointments in the morning, it never dawned on them that they could pay like the rest and get there.

Or it "dawned on" ministers that when you have to survive on €188 a week every penny counts, and to have a condition that qualifies for disability, or being elderly, means that would be a lot of appointments, it may also have dawned on them that a huge number of hospitals have their schedule organised as morning clinics where you must be in waiting at 8am.

I'm very sorry those of us with a serious illness having the nerve to travel in the morning and sit on the same train as you upsets you, but you see it's easy to make a smarmy snotty dismissive comment online when you've the luxury of leaping to conclusions and don't have to face the real life complexities of the thing you're discussing

ted1 wrote: »

Because if your not working you don't need to be anywhere.

Did you not think about this before posting it?

If you're on jobseekers you need to go loads of places, you are legally required to be engaging in an active job search (and now you may be asked to fill out forms proving it at any time) how can you do that without moving around? But you don't get FT passes on JS anyway

If you're on disability you need to travel for medical appointments, prescription, to socialise, to get out in the world for your own sanity and medical and physical health (the exact reason the pass exists as elderly and disabled were isolated with deteriorating mental and physical health which cost the state a fortune to treat there may be even a net saving with the pass)

ted1 wrote: »

So those people aren't available for work and shouldn't receive JSA. Hospital have staff and the relative can generally cope for an hour.

If someone is volunteering for a charity why should they be getting free travel , should they not be working ? I've no problem with people volunteering but if they are getting free travel then that's a charity donation and I'd rather select what charity my taxes go to

JOBSEEKERS DO NOT GET FT PASSES

It's perfectly legal to do charity work on any welfare payment as long as you also meet the conditions of your payment.

Your taxes go to lots of things you disagree with, that's life

Victor

Emme wrote: »

This government seems to be hell bent on destroying rural Ireland and locating as many jobs in Dublin as possible

It's not the government, it's 15,000 years of civilisation. One would hope that people would realise that there are fewer and fewer reasons to live in rural areas, when jobs and services are in urban areas.

beauf

Victor wrote: »

It's not the government, it's 15,000 years of civilisation. One would hope that people would realise that there are fewer and fewer reasons to live in rural areas, when jobs and services are in urban areas.

We are building things hospitals and airport extensions in Dublin when for most people it would be quicker to get to them if they were 30 mins out of Dublin in the midlands somewhere. Ditto technology parks. Instead people take an hour to two hours to travel across Dublin to get to them.

Emme

beauf wrote: »

We are building things hospitals and airport extensions in Dublin when for most people it would be quicker to get to them if they were 30 mins out of Dublin in the midlands somewhere. Ditto technology parks. Instead people take an hour to two hours to travel across Dublin to get to them.

There is a new children's hospital being built on the St James's Hospital campus. The campus was built up before construction began and there is very poor infrastructure for pedestrians. I pity parents bringing sick children to this location on overcrowded trains (or indeed any form of transport) and then trying to negotiate the concrete jungle of St James's Hospital.

Chuchote

Of course we should have an NHS. With the amount of contributions people pay into private health insurers it would certainly be possible to build a basic national health service.
We're putting money into all the wrong things. Look at this study in New York, which found that building bike lanes is one of the best investments in health that can be made http://road.cc/content/news/206615-bike-lanes-one-best-investments-public-health-returns - “Investments in bicycle lanes come with an exceptionally good value because they simultaneously address multiple public health problems.
“Investments in bike lanes are more cost-effective than the majority of preventive approaches used today.”
They're an obvious, relatively very cheap investment that will have good effects in everything from diabetes to heart disease to depression. But they face political sluggishness because of vested interests.
If Ireland decided who was at the centre of our policies - the citizens and inhabitants of our country, not the industries - we'd have a chance of a really great country, and a country in which industry would thrive.

XPS_Zero

I remember before I got a mysterious pain in my side that was to turn to 3.5 years of hell I used to look st those grey train tickets "social welfare return" "€0.00" going to and from work and college and it made me angry, until I realised only three v specific groups get them. I know there's a type who use welfare as a lifestyle choice so I'm trying not to get angry reading this, but I'm just honestly bowled over at the sheer level of ignorance on this topic, but it's not the ignorance per say that gets me its:

1. People basing v strong assertive opinions on this ignorance like they're the one sane person in the room and it's so obvious, even though they've all the basic facts wrong
2. That it's so easy to check basic things before forming opinions (like going to citizensinfornation online to see if jobseekers get FT passes) ..,and they don't do it!...but then go on to have these intense opinions on it!

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are you the only worker who pays train fare or are you having a pop at those who may be genuinely unable to either work or get work?

However, I DO agree that they should only be allowed travel offpeak or like the UK system, only within a certain radius of their home. Should they need to travel at peak times or outside this radius, they should be able to claim pack a portion of their travel costs.

Sitting on ones backside on the dole is torture for one used to and willing to work.

There's no real logic to limiting the distance traveled on FT passes it doesn't cost any more for them to go longer
Keep in mind lots of people living in the countryside must travel to regional centres in the cities for hospital appointments

We tried the peak hour restrictions they were removed for a good reason they didn't work. For example Mary's told to be at the hospital for 8am, "I can't my Pass won't work can you give me an afternoon clinic", so she gets a 2pm slot, but delays mean she's not seen until 3:30 and now she must either sprint to the bus stop to make it before the time or wait 3 hours to go home, since she's only 2euro in her purse

You may laugh, but that's the way it is for some, living on €188 with bills, rent, food all squeezed into that is not easy

91wx763 wrote: »

NOBODY in the UK, (except for retired rail staff and staff members travelling on their own franchise's trains) gets free travel. I work in the industry and regularly get offered Irish free travel passes and am treated with beligerence as to why they have to pay !!!!

1. ......and? The US can bill you 100k for a 3 day ER visit and drowns students in tuition fees, should we just because they do?

2. YES THEY DO depends where you live they also give discounted travel to many groups we don't

road_high wrote: »

In Ireland OAP's don't realise how good they have it...all I ever hear is whine whine whine incessantly. I think it's great they are well treated but i'm firmly of the opinion it is at the expense of young people and middle income workers. Who effectively see 0 benefit to paying huge taxes.

Yep zero benefit other than:
1. Publically fubded primary, secondary and fee free third level education
2. Mostly free healthcare with medical cards being phased in for everyone
3. Police protection
4. Various welfare payments that go to the young like illness pay, jobseekers, SWA, children's allowance...

We don't get as much as the rest of the EU but it's not nothing

We all pay into the pot and WE ALL take from it at various points in our lives to various extents, most of those old people paid far higher taxes than we do now back in the 1980s, 60% on the average wage at one point

road_high wrote: »

Wrong...state pension payments come out of current expenditure. Their taxes funded pensions of the past, which were far lower

They also funded your education, healthcare, and the children's allowance that helped buy your books, shoes, food.....

mikeym wrote: »

Theres plenty of scumbags on the Luas that have free travel passes that dont look disabled.

Some of them make a bit of money on the side dealing drugs on the Luas.

Total slap in the face to the honest worker.

How do you know by looking at someone? They could have anything wrong with them. I think we solve that problem by excluding anyone from a pass with a criminal conviction

Someone might not look disabled in the cartoonish way you imagine it but may still be, their illness could be mental, many serious conditions today have treatment so non invasive it wouldn't be obvious looking at someone they had say cancer

XPS_Zero

To correct also the outrageous claim of the poster who said you can casually go to a hospital say you're suicidal and get an FT pass needs a reply of its own

You ought to withdraw such a shameful post it downplays the seriousness of depression

Here are all the obvious reasons why that wouldn't happen:

•You'd be put on a psych hold for days and probably be given anti anxiety drugs like Valium and given a minder to sit beside you. Suicidal ideation is considered a medical emergency on par with an MI they won't let you just casually sign a few forms then send you home, in fact if they think you might harm yourself the Emergency Room staff have a legal duty to detain you

•Disability Allowance is for conditions that have lasted over a year so anyone with no prior record suddenly being suicidal would be either hospitalised or put on meds by their GP and referred to a psychiatrist not put on disability. They might, if they need to take time off, be put on illness benefit no FT pass comes with that

•To get disability you need to be diagnosed with a specific condition with a specific diagnostic code and have to be clearly demonstrating the DSM criteria for that condition, bluffing it and getting past a GP, welfare officer, medical assessor and a state doc you may be referred to would be quite the accomplishment

•You must fill out a 6 page medical report (separate to the GPs one) giving detailed answers to specific questions about how specifically your condition stops you doing xyz

•It's not enough to have say a mental illness, lots of working people have some form of mild depression (the words grossly overused though and confused with what should be called low mood) it has to ALSO interfere with your basic daily functioning like work socialising etc

•Unless your disability is permanent you have to estimate how long you think it will be for you to recover, then a review date by an independent doctor will be scheduled, you're subject to observation without notice at any time by a welfare inspector to ensure your behaviour matches your reported condition

•If you get past all that the waiting time for application to be processed is about 20 weeks

I don't know what sane person would do all that, fake an illness, study up on a specific illness to fake it (which you'd have to do ) , drop work in a country where average wage is about €600 a week after taxes, for an income of €188 just to get Free Travel. So for the sake of dropping €400 a week you've saved at most the maximum all services leap card cap of €40..,and you must engage in an elaborate charade risking fraud charges to do it.

As someone who is recovering from cancer and crippling depression that came with it I can tell you all that the pass made a huge difference to me, long term sick and seniors are often isolated which exacerbates their health
After my diagnosis the fear of death and how people would react made me isolate myself. All social media shut down, stopped seeing friends, id go days without leaving the house, which added a serious mental health problem to the physical one

Aiming to be back working and college in January having the pass encouraged me to end that isolation and get out again, this will sound absurd because it's not logical but despite recovering from physical illness the depression and isolation almost ended in suicide. Switching from illness to disability more recently that pass came with it and I started to get out again

I hadn't socialised in nearly three years, no hanging out with friends, no cinema or pubs or clubs no sport...nothing and I mean nothing. NOTHING . This is not eggageration. I saw one friend now and then kept in vague touch with the rest by iMessage...oh yes I have an iPhone it was a gift by that friend for making it another year I didn't buy it with my welfare millions and I apologise for committing the crime of owning modern tech while disabled, I dunno where I got the nerve.

It costs less than 1/10th of 1% of the budget and has huge benefits for that. Cutting my lifeless body down from a tree followed by an investigation (suicides are considered homicides apparently until they demonstrate otherwise) or wheeling me into an emergency room and burning time and drugs trying to get me back would have cost way more than provisioning me with the card, as would hospitalising me it was going one way or the other before a v simple bit of plastic with a chip in it broke a downward spiral.

There aren't workers and leeches there's just people, we all contribute to the well we all drink from it at some stage. Yes yes there's the welfare lifers but surely we can deal with them without throwing the 90% genuine s out?
I worked from the time I was 10 (which may have been illegal ) until this hit, I paid tax and USC and PRSI just like you, and when I'm paying them again I've no problem with them putting your kids through school and college (as they will) paying your pension, sick pay, A&E admission, children's allowance or anything else.

We're a society, none of us are pure contributors who get nothing back. Sorry to get so personal but you guys casually have these discussions in the abstract and make seeeping suggestions maybe a reminder was needed that real human beings are on the other end after you walk away from the laptop or put the phone down.

endagibson

91wx763 wrote: »

NOBODY in the UK, (except for retired rail staff and staff members travelling on their own franchise's trains) gets free travel. I work in the industry and regularly get offered Irish free travel passes and am treated with beligerence as to why they have to pay !!!!

Have the UK Jobcentres done away with the travel warrants? I remember being on the dole over there and being given such warrants to travel to interviews on the other side of the country. Which was just as well, as the weekly payment was £55 and the tickets were at least £80. They weren't handed out; I specifically had to ask for them in advance, provide intervirew evidence and then collect the warrant.

XPS_Zero

endagibson wrote: »

Have the UK Jobcentres done away with the travel warrants? I remember being on the dole over there and being given such warrants to travel to interviews on the other side of the country. Which was just as well, as the weekly payment was £55 and the tickets were at least £80. They weren't handed out; I specifically had to ask for them in advance, provide intervirew evidence and then collect the warrant.

http://www.ageuk.org.uk/money-matters/claiming-benefits/public-transport-and-concessions/transport-concessions-older-people/

http://www.senior-railcard.co.uk

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-concessions/freedom-pass#on-this-page-0

As you can see there's all kinds of welfare concessions on the UK system

It's funny how reactionaries always compare us to the UK that's because it's the only one in EU 15 worse than us all the others have much bigger welfare states, even the UK has had NHS since the 40s were only NOW getting around to universal healthcare

endagibson

road_high wrote: »

Wrong...state pension payments come out of current expenditure. Their taxes funded pensions of the past, which were far lower

I think you need to look up the eye-watering tax rates that previous generations paid.

Grandeeod

XPS_Zero wrote: »

To correct also the outrageous claim of the poster who said you can casually go to a hospital say you're suicidal and get an FT pass needs a reply of its own

You ought to withdraw such a shameful post it downplays the seriousness of depression

I'm the poster who said that and I stand over it. While your analysis of how it works is pretty much correct (I was only giving the quick version) it does happen and I have witnessed it. There is widespread fraud being committed with disability benefit.

As for depression and suicide, please do not use these issues to try and shame me. I'm the last person to downplay depression or indeed suicide. Its the **** that defraud the system who downplay it.

old boy

Grandeeod wrote: »

I'm the poster who said that and I stand over it. While your analysis of how it works is pretty much correct (I was only giving the quick version) it does happen and I have witnessed it. There is widespread fraud being committed with disability benefit.

As for depression and suicide, please do not use these issues to try and shame me. I'm the last person to downplay depression or indeed suicide. Its the **** that defraud the system who downplay it.

to get db for depression one has to pass rather stringent medical tests, by experts, they can tell from a mile if one is taking the proverbial or not, so please refrain from making such acessments

Chuchote

Pensioner friends in London are able to avail of free travel. It's a different system from here, but they can avail of it.

However, this thread seems to have diverged from the cost of travelling to work to another of those "The poor have too much money, damn them" threads, so I'll say goodbye and unfollow at this stage. Good luck with solving the travel costs problem; my only suggestion is to buy a bike, get healthy and save a fortune.

Chuchote

Pensioner friends in London are able to avail of free travel. It's a different system from here, but they can avail of it.

However, this thread seems to have diverged from the cost of travelling to work to another of those "The poor have too much money, damn them" threads, so I'll say goodbye and unfollow at this stage. Good luck with solving the travel costs problem; my only suggestion is to buy a bike, get healthy and save a fortune.

Grandeeod

old boy wrote: »

to get db for depression one has to pass rather stringent medical tests, by experts, they can tell from a mile if one is taking the proverbial or not, so please refrain from making such acessments

Well you can sail away in your perfect world. I've witnessed the fraud in terms of suicidal tendencies and depression. Im not some youngster making a throwaway remark. I don't say things like this lightly.

Grandeeod

Grandeeod wrote: »

I'm the poster who said that and I stand over it. While your analysis of how it works is pretty much correct (I was only giving the quick version) it does happen and I have witnessed it. There is widespread fraud being committed with disability benefit.

As for depression and suicide, please do not use these issues to try and shame me. I'm the last person to downplay depression or indeed suicide. Its the **** that defraud the system who downplay it.

I work in this area . It is virtually impossible to get Disability benefit for depression and other mental illnesses ....its very very rare and only exceptional cases would be considered. Being suicidal is not enough to get DB and as previous poster said it takes minimum 20 weeks and several medical reports, consultants psychiatrist letters etc. It is also very much harder now to scam the SW system. Fines are huge (this week alone one person was fined €60k for being on the wrong SW payment).

Sweeping generalisations all over this thread from people who know very little and have experienced even less in life . Be very thankful - it could all change overnight ......even if it doesn't some day you will be old ......and very grateful for your €219 a week.

Mortpourvelo

Deleted User wrote: »

I work in this area . It is virtually impossible to get Disability benefit for depression and other mental illnesses ....its very very rare and only exceptional cases would be considered. Being suicidal is not enough to get DB and as previous poster said it takes minimum 20 weeks and several medical reports, consultants psychiatrist letters etc. It is also very much harder now to scam the SW system. Fines are huge (this week alone one person was fined €60k for being on the wrong SW payment).

Sweeping generalisations all over this thread from people who know very little and have experienced even less in life . Be very thankful - it could all change overnight ......even if it doesn't some day you will be old ......and very grateful for your €219 a week.

Yes, because EVERY person on SW gets only 219 per week.

SMFH

pilly

Deleted User wrote: »

I work in this area . It is virtually impossible to get Disability benefit for depression and other mental illnesses ....its very very rare and only exceptional cases would be considered. Being suicidal is not enough to get DB and as previous poster said it takes minimum 20 weeks and several medical reports, consultants psychiatrist letters etc. It is also very much harder now to scam the SW system. Fines are huge (this week alone one person was fined €60k for being on the wrong SW payment).

Sweeping generalisations all over this thread from people who know very little and have experienced even less in life . Be very thankful - it could all change overnight ......even if it doesn't some day you will be old ......and very grateful for your €219 a week.

Sorry sweetmaggie, didn't really want to get involved in this one but I personally know a good few addicts who have bus passes and I've never had the neck to ask them why. Is addiction termed a long term illness?

Mortpourvelo

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Yes, because EVERY person on SW gets only 219 per week.

SMFH

believe me - and I am speaking from personal experience here - nobody would choose to be on SW. You constantly stress about money, you watch every penny, you have limitations. The longer you are on it the less chance you have of getting a job, you get depressed, lack motivation, become embittered, feel cheated by society and circumstances, your attitude changes, you are in a vicious circle that's very hard to get out of, you become depressed.

I was one of the lucky ones. I lost my job, studied, became involved with less well off people in society through voluntary work and changed careers (after about 2 years of bits and pieces of work and extremely low self esteem). I see life from both sides. I see the frustration of the middle income tax payers, squeezed for everything (I was once one of them) but I can also see their prejudice and biased views of unemployed people. I work very hard now, very long hours, with the most difficult of cases and I thank God I was one of the lucky ones. You would not want to be some of the people I work with, jobless, homes being re-possessed, loss of hope, drugs, drink, suicide, very poor health, now way out. The same people come back in time after time, never really getting ahead, maybe for a few months then things fall apart and its back to square one.




(Being on Job Seekers does NOT automatically open the door to Rent Allowance, Medical Card, and never free travel, and if someone is on Disability Allowance believe me they are entitled to it. It is extremely hard to get onto this payment now and the checks are very rigorous. If you cannot accept there are some people in society who will always need the support of social welfare through unfortunate circumstances of birth and never getting a good start, lack of education, poor health, etc then you have very blinkered view of life)

pilly

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Yes, because EVERY person on SW gets only 219 per week.

SMFH

No in fact some only get 188! And no other allowances.