Cheapest Leaf is €7.5k here but only €5.5k in the UK

unkel

Just did a quick check on DoneDeal and Autotrader.co.uk. Cheapest here was €7.5k, cheapest there was £5k (a bit over €5.5k) for an '11 Leaf

Am I missing something here? Importing an EV still has 0% VRT, doesn't it? Even if I allow for say €400 flying over and taking the ferry back, it would save me €1,500k?

Or is there more at play? Are the asking prices here a bit inflated and do they really sell (privately) for more like €6k or €7k? (If you think that when you can have a new Leaf for €20k all in, that would be about par for the course?)

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

Just did a quick check on DoneDeal and Autotrader.co.uk. Cheapest here was €7.5k, cheapest there was £5k (a bit over €5.5k) for an '11 Leaf

Am I missing something here? Importing an EV still has 0% VRT, doesn't it? Even if I allow for say €400 flying over and taking the ferry back, it would save me €1,500k?

Or is there more at play? Are the asking prices here a bit inflated and do they really sell (privately) for more like €6k or €7k? (If you think that when you can have a new Leaf for €20k all in, that would be about par for the course?)

There are significant savings to be made - albeit you still have to shop carefully over there too.

Are you confident that you are comparing like with like?

ps. Flying over and taking the ferry back is achievable for less - particularly at this time of year.

grogi

unkel wrote: »

Just did a quick check on DoneDeal and Autotrader.co.uk. Cheapest here was €7.5k, cheapest there was £5k (a bit over €5.5k) for an '11 Leaf

Am I missing something here? Importing an EV still has 0% VRT, doesn't it? Even if I allow for say €400 flying over and taking the ferry back, it would save me €1,500k?

Or is there more at play? Are the asking prices here a bit inflated and do they really sell (privately) for more like €6k or €7k? (If you think that when you can have a new Leaf for €20k all in, that would be about par for the course?)

Just make sure you'd own the batteries...

unkel

Don't all Leafs come with owned batteries? Isn't Renault the only make where you have to lease them?

grogi

unkel wrote: »

Don't all Leafs come with owned batteries? Isn't Renault the only make where you have to lease them?

In UK you can rent the battery as well. It's called FLEX.

https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/prices-specifications.html

macnab

Most if not all of the £5000 Leafs that I have seen in the UK are FLEX models.

k123456

From peoples experience here of buying from UK (non flex of course)

What is the best value , compared to what we pay here
24kw or 30
gen 1 or gen 2
what year
what trim

etc

Thanks

Ken

unkel

Ah, ok some of the cheaper ones seem to be on battery lease, that's a no go for obvious reasons. But what about something like this:

Linky

Hi spec, low miles, 2 owner car. Battery 11 out of 12 bars. Looks in great condition. Private sale, so I guess it could be had for about £4.5k

How much would that easily sell for over here?

If north of €6.5k (still more than a grand under the cheapest Irish Leaf), it seems there is a great opportunity for someone to make money importing these cars into Ireland?

Balmed Out

There are two people who do that. Look at the Facebook page

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

But what about something like this:

Linky

Hi spec, low miles, 2 owner car. Battery 11 out of 12 bars. Looks in great condition. Private sale, so I guess it could be had for about £4.5k

How much would that easily sell for over here?

If north of €6.5k (still more than a grand under the cheapest Irish Leaf), it seems there is a great opportunity for someone to make money importing these cars into Ireland?

Your link doesn't seem to be working. There are a few guys involved in sourcing cars and bringing them across - albeit that if you go this route, naturally their margin has to be covered. That said, its a pretty small market right now.

Are you toying with the idea of making a purchase (as you had seemed to suggest in an earlier post that you couldn't deal with the current disadvantages in owning an ev?)? If so, what's your budget and what's important to you? i.e. what features do you need on board?

unkel

Toying with the idea is exactly right!

The Leaf would make a lot of sense for us as a daily economical family car, we do a lot of short trips around Dublin and rarely go very far away in the car. I test drove the Leaf myself earlier this year and I was ready to push the button on a brand new one (€20k all in, on the road, that's a lot of value for money!), but rest of the family is not convinced. It doesn't help the car is incredibly ugly

But if I could pick one up second hand very cheaply at say €5k landed or so, drive around for a bit, play with it and let the family get used to it. Then if we decide it's not for us, the idea would be that I could easily flip it here at zero loss, or preferably a small profit

I have no intention to start trading in Leafs as a sideline, believe me!

ted1

unkel wrote: »

Just did a quick check on DoneDeal and Autotrader.co.uk. Cheapest here was €7.5k, cheapest there was £5k (a bit over €5.5k) for an '11 Leaf

Am I missing something here? Importing an EV still has 0% VRT, doesn't it? Even if I allow for say €400 flying over and taking the ferry back, it would save me €1,500k?

Or is there more at play? Are the asking prices here a bit inflated and do they really sell (privately) for more like €6k or €7k? (If you think that when you can have a new Leaf for €20k all in, that would be about par for the course?)

I believe you'll also get a free charging point if you import a second hand model but have to pay for one if you buy second hand in Ireland

isnottheword

ted1 wrote: »

I believe you'll also get a free charging point if you import a second hand model but have to pay for one if you buy second hand in Ireland

Nope - you won't get a free home charging point in either case. You need to buy new from an irish dealer. However, that doesn't need to be as big a deal as they make out. They suggest it's worth €1000. There are going to be more and more 2nd hand charging units in the UK finding their way onto Ebay - as peoples circumstances change - so can be picked up for cheap and installed by your local electrician (we're talking a few hundred euro all in).

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

Toying with the idea is exactly right!

The Leaf would make a lot of sense for us as a daily economical family car, we do a lot of short trips around Dublin and rarely go very far away in the car. I test drove the Leaf myself earlier this year and I was ready to push the button on a brand new one (€20k all in, on the road, that's a lot of value for money!), but rest of the family is not convinced. It doesn't help the car is incredibly ugly

But if I could pick one up second hand very cheaply at say €5k landed or so, drive around for a bit, play with it and let the family get used to it. Then if we decide it's not for us, the idea would be that I could easily flip it here at zero loss, or preferably a small profit

Ok, that doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. I believe you're right not to go the new car route - in my view you'd be bonkers to do that (others on here would suggest its feasible via pcp - i dont agree - but that's one for other threads on this section).

Closest I can see to your budget is this;

EDIT: It seems that links from autotrader wont work. Anyway, theres one listed right now for £5000.

However, there's a problem. The entry level car in the UK is the Visia model. I'm open to correct but it doesn't come with fast (chademo) charging. I think you'd regret buying a car without this feature - it really would curb the manner in which you used the car. Would you consider upping the budget and going for a generation 1 Acenta model?

traco

Any insurance info on these, I reckon one would be ideal for local shops and Dart station every day but I wouldn't replace our other cars so this would be in addition to her own one - just wondering how insurance company would consider it?

isnottheword

traco wrote: »

Any insurance info on these, I reckon one would be ideal for local shops and Dart station every day but I wouldn't replace our other cars so this would be in addition to her own one - just wondering how insurance company would consider it?

I switched my policy over (with 9 months of policy to run) from my existing ICE to a Leaf - which I had them record as double the value of the original ICE insured - and they didn't charge me a cent extra.

This may not be the best example - probably best if those that have taken out a full policy from day one give you feedback. However, my understanding is that it won't be any more expensive to insure than any ICE.

KCross

k123456 wrote: »

From peoples experience here of buying from UK (non flex of course)

What is the best value , compared to what we pay here
24kw or 30
gen 1 or gen 2
what year
what trim

etc

Thanks

Ken

unkel wrote: »

Toying with the idea is exactly right!

The Leaf would make a lot of sense for us as a daily economical family car, we do a lot of short trips around Dublin and rarely go very far away in the car. I test drove the Leaf myself earlier this year and I was ready to push the button on a brand new one (€20k all in, on the road, that's a lot of value for money!), but rest of the family is not convinced. It doesn't help the car is incredibly ugly

But if I could pick one up second hand very cheaply at say €5k landed or so, drive around for a bit, play with it and let the family get used to it. Then if we decide it's not for us, the idea would be that I could easily flip it here at zero loss, or preferably a small profit

I have no intention to start trading in Leafs as a sideline, believe me!

30kWh's only came out in 2016 so you can expect to pay relatively high prices for those. Not something you would do based on your description of "toying with it and flipping it".

Since you are looking at a short term purchase you need to be aware that the 2nd hand market is going to be difficult. Dont expect a quick sale or to get your money back as the market here is still way too small.

I cant say where the sweet spot in value is but I'll take a guess.... most of the UK cars are the SV(Acenta) models with 3.3kW charger. Since they are the most popular and there are alot of them coming off PCP they probably have the best value as they will be harder to sell.

However, if you are looking to sell on here you need to be able to differentiate your car to the others so any extras you can get like metallic, 6.6kW charger or Gen 1.5 will all make your car "easier" to sell... but still not easy of course.

I wouldnt buy something with a capacity bar already gone unless its really really cheap. You could drive that for 12 months and may lose another bar and then it will be even more difficult to sell on.

You will really have to decide all that for yourself as everyone will have their own way of risk assessment.

KCross

isnottheword wrote: »

I switched my policy over (with 9 months of policy to run) from my existing ICE to a Leaf - which I had them record as double the value of the original ICE insured - and they didn't charge me a cent extra.

This may not be the best example - probably best if those that have taken out a full policy from day one give you feedback. However, my understanding is that it won't be any more expensive to insure than any ICE.

I dont believe there is much, if any, difference either. Its hard to tell since insurance went up this year anyway but dont expect it to come down because you switch to EV.

isnottheword

I'd be of the same opinion as KCross above. The glut of cars coming off PCP is where the value is at. 6.6kW's are hard to find but (depending on the nature of your usage) can come in very handy and will definitely make the car far more attractive for re-sale.

Just so that you are aware, many sellers are not even aware if their cars have this feature! You have to tease out the details with them (there are ways to tell). Its to your advantage if they dont know (albeit it makes for a more frustrating and time consuming car search) as they should be pricing the car up a bit more on the basis of this feature.

DrPhilG

My insurance dropped from €570 to €500 when I switched.

I imported from the UK too. Wider range of choice compared to here. I had a specific wishlist so it wasn't hard to find the exact car I wanted over there.

Price
Year
Model
6.6
Mileage
Colour

All found within a week of looking. Flew over, drove back.

cros13

I'd also point out that you can't trust the capacity bars on some of those ultra cheap UK Leafs. It's possible through some precisely timed charging to kind of "clock" the capacity bars and have the meter show an extra bar or two, at least for a few hundred km.

You need to have an OBD2 dongle and a copy of leaf spy as the OBD will report more accurate numbers, and ideally you want to see the car with a full battery.

Personally I think if you are going to the UK the best buy would be one of the early Mark 1.5 24kWh Leafs in Acenta or Tekna trim. Those don't go below £7k at the moment. The main reason is that we know from experience now that the Mark 1.5 battery is very resistant to capacity loss even with very high mileage (even up to 200,000+km) and a lot of rapid charging.

Avoid Visia, prior to 2015 they did not include rapid charging as standard and lack satnav and nissanconnect.

When I changed to a Leaf from ICE in the same insurance group I saw a drop of 10% in premium.

cros13

DrPhilG wrote: »

My insurance dropped from €570 to €500 when I switched.

How's that jar of yours doing? Enough saved for a holiday in the sun yet?

DrPhilG

cros13 wrote: »

How's that jar of yours doing? Enough saved for a holiday in the sun yet?

£2300 and counting.

Not allowed spend it on a holiday though, it's for a 60kwh EV.

traco

Cheers for comments guys but I should have been clearer in my question, this would be an additional car, she would still keep the ICE.

So any chance they would look at it differently as an additional car on limited mileage policy etc? Its definitely not classic and her current ICE wouldn't be classic either.

So would she be shafted and be treated as a new driver with zero NCD?

isnottheword

traco wrote: »

Cheers for comments guys but I should have been clearer in my question, this would be an additional car, she would still keep the ICE.

So any chance they would look at it differently as an additional car on limited mileage policy etc? Its definitely not classic and her current ICE wouldn't be classic either.

So would she be shafted and be treated as a new driver with zero NCD?

I'd imagine she'll be paying a full premium as normal - as you would if you had a 2nd ICE instead of a EV as a 2nd car.

cros13

traco wrote: »

So would she be shafted and be treated as a new driver with zero NCD?

Pretty much. Multi-car policies aren't a thing in Ireland.

unkel

I take your point, cros13. But for me it would either be all-in (a brand new €20k Leaf) or the cheapest possible second hand car that I can easily shift without making any loss (or preferably a small profit)

traco

cros13 wrote: »

Pretty much. Multi-car policies aren't a thing in Ireland.

I know, jumped through all those hoops earlier this year with a second car myself. I was just hoping that the leccy thing might have been looked at differently as it might encourage people to add one to the garage and use where applicable.

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

I take your point, cros13. But for me it would either be all-in (a brand new €20k Leaf) or the cheapest possible second hand car that I can easily shift without making any loss (or preferably a small profit)

No EV will be 'easy shift' in Ireland as such. Don't get me wrong - there are clearly savings to be made by importing - but the pool of available EV buyers in Ireland is very small right now.


If you were prepared to raise your budget to €9-10K, you could snag a cracking deal. As regards going 'all-in', each to their own but I can't see that as ever being financially savvy. What you would get for half the price would still have a long manufacturers warranty left on it - it would just be 24 months old.

Del2005

traco wrote: »

Cheers for comments guys but I should have been clearer in my question, this would be an additional car, she would still keep the ICE.

So any chance they would look at it differently as an additional car on limited mileage policy etc? Its definitely not classic and her current ICE wouldn't be classic either.

So would she be shafted and be treated as a new driver with zero NCD?

You could possibly get an insurance company to mirror the NCD or some give named driver experience discounts.

Married couples who maintain only one car should swap the main policy holder annually so both can maintain an NCD you don't need to change the name on the VLC, there's no issues with this as married people have an insurable interest in their spouses vehicle.

grogi

Del2005 wrote: »

You could possibly get an insurance company to mirror the NCD or some give named driver experience discounts.

Married couples who maintain only one car should swap the main policy holder annually so both can maintain an NCD you don't need to change the name on the VLC, there's no issues with this as married people have an insurable interest in their spouses vehicle.

Not again the insurable interest bull****... It does not make sense to talk about it in context of TPL policies!

DrPhilG

I've considered a second car, and if excessive charging costs come in I might definitely need to look at it.

But my wife still has an open claim due to the Setanta Insurance collapse. It's years ago, but as it's still open she won't be able to get a quote.

Am I missing something, or does that basically prevent us from getting another car until the Setanta saga is closed?

unkel

isnottheword wrote: »

If you were prepared to raise your budget to €9-10K, you could snag a cracking deal. As regards going 'all-in', each to their own but I can't see that as ever being financially savvy. What you would get for half the price would still have a long manufacturers warranty left on it - it would just be 24 months old.

If that's the case, then you have a point. I'd rather pay €9-10k for a 2 year old Leaf which is probably a lot better specced than the base model (with fast charger and metallic paint) which would cost me €20k

If is the word though. Any link to any 142 or 151 Leaf for €9-10k?

Cheapest 2014 Leaf on Donedeal is €11.5k and that is a 141, so nearly 3 years old and soon out of warranty. And is that even the one with the better battery introduced at some point? Anyway poor value for money

Almost all of the other ones (2014 and 2015) are thousands more...

Or were you talking about importing one when you said €9-10k?

Edit: cheapest 142 reg Leaf has an asking of €14.5k. Which is ridiculous imho...

isnottheword

@unkel: Are you in a rush to source? Are your circumstances such that you can bide your time to source the best possible deal (as I did)? I'm at work right now but will run a search for you in the wee hours when I'm back home tonight.

unkel

No rush at all! Still only toying with the idea

All input welcome!

If you want a First Gen Leaf , bring Leaf Spy, assess the battery degradation and - that % from the max range of about 100 Kms dead of winter on a new battery. If you're ok with this then you could get a few years out of it before it needs a battery.

Once the battery reaches 75% capacity (by Nissan's measurement only, they will not accept anything to do with leaf spy) you can get a new current 24 Kwh battery for 5,500 Euro's at today's prices and keep the car xx more years after which another battery can be installed etc.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Once the battery reaches 75% capacity (by Nissan's measurement only, they will not accept anything to do with leaf spy) you can get a new current 24 Kwh battery for 5,500 Euro's at today's prices and keep the car xx more years after which another battery can be installed etc.

Nobody in their right mind is going to pay €5.5k to change the battery in their Leaf when it is no longer useful (let's say when the car is 6-10 years old?). The car will be scrapped at that point.

Is there any word of people replacing parts of the Leaf battery or individual cells even? Apparently this is quite doable and very cheap on Toyota (Lexus) battery packs. Some people have even DIYed it.

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

Nobody in their right mind is going to pay €5.5k to change the battery in their Leaf when it is no longer useful (let's say when the car is 6-10 years old?). The car will be scrapped at that point.

Is there any word of people replacing parts of the Leaf battery or individual cells even? Apparently this is quite doable and very cheap on Toyota (Lexus) battery packs. Some people have even DIYed it.

You're quite right - nobody would. However, I'd be hopeful that the pricepoint on that for the 24kW will come down in the next few years.

As regards your second question, yes there is. Mike Schooling - indra.co.uk . He refurbishes batteries - but still expensive right now - £1500. Again, we may see this drop over time. Furthermore, I'd be hopeful that more will get into this game as we go along.

Otherwise, I still contend (and others here will disagree with me) that a battery thats partially depleted will still work for a certain segment i.e. those that use a second car locally for shop runs, school runs, etc. Therefore, there should be a residual value towards end of life. Even the battery itself has a significant value after use.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you want a First Gen Leaf , bring Leaf Spy, assess the battery degradation and - that % from the max range of about 100 Kms dead of winter on a new battery. If you're ok with this then you could get a few years out of it before it needs a battery.

Once the battery reaches 75% capacity (by Nissan's measurement only, they will not accept anything to do with leaf spy) you can get a new current 24 Kwh battery for 5,500 Euro's at today's prices and keep the car xx more years after which another battery can be installed etc.

Is there any after market batteries that would fit? Could teslas gigafactory produce a leaf compatible battery ?what price would it be ?

Sure, someone on the Irish Ev Owners Group on FB is doing just that. Buying a new battery. By the time you may need one it may have dropped another couple of grand.

isnottheword

ted1 wrote: »

Is there any after market batteries that would fit? Could teslas gigafactory produce a leaf compatible battery ?what price would it be ?

I don't think they'd want to - to start with. Even Nissan won't want to facilitate the input of their later batteries into old stock (as they're interested in new sales) - but that doesn't mean to say that third party enterprises won't be able to find a way to facilitate.

What Tesla are likely to achieve is bringing the cost of EV batteries down.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Is there any after market batteries that would fit? Could teslas gigafactory produce a leaf compatible battery ?what price would it be ?

Aftermarket ? no.

And even if there was they's need to have a very proven record of producing batteries that are good quality. And provide a good warranty.

ted1

isnottheword wrote: »

I don't think they'd want to - to start with. Even Nissan won't want to facilitate the input of their later batteries into old stock (as they're interested in new sales) - but that doesn't mean to say that third party enterprises won't be able to find a way to facilitate.

What Tesla are likely to achieve is bringing the cost of EV batteries down.

Tesla have giving away their patents , I believr that their long term goal is to be the battery provider. Replacing shell and BP etc as oil Barron's

unkel

isnottheword wrote: »

Otherwise, I still contend (and others here will disagree with me) that a battery thats partially depleted will still work for a certain segment i.e. those that use a second car locally for shop runs, school runs, etc.

I not only agree with you, I would actually be in that segment. I'd buy a knackered battery Leaf as a third car just for those short trips. It would make sense provided you have a drive way, with a charging point and the fixed costs of owning a low value near end of life Leaf would be manageable. Depreciation is near zero, tax is €120, insurance hopefully a free add-on to an existing policy, maintenance minimal (maybe €300 per year including servicing, tyres and NCT). Including fuel and opportunity costs of money, we might only be talking about €100 per month total cost of ownership to own an end of life Leaf

axe2grind

traco wrote: »

Cheers for comments guys but I should have been clearer in my question, this would be an additional car, she would still keep the ICE.

So any chance they would look at it differently as an additional car on limited mileage policy etc? Its definitely not classic and her current ICE wouldn't be classic either.

So would she be shafted and be treated as a new driver with zero NCD?

We were one car household for years with me a named driver on my partner's policy. When we got 2nd car, I got full NCD on my own policy.

traco

unkel wrote: »

I not only agree with you, I would actually be in that segment. I'd buy a knackered battery Leaf as a third car just for those short trips. It would make sense provided you have a drive way, with a charging point and the fixed costs of owning a low value near end of life Leaf would be manageable. Depreciation is near zero, tax is €120, insurance hopefully a free add-on to an existing policy, maintenance minimal (maybe €300 per year including servicing, tyres and NCT). Including fuel and opportunity costs of money, we might only be talking about €100 per month total cost of ownership to own an end of life Leaf

I'm thinking the exact same thing, shops, dart station, gym etc. All local and maybe 20kms a day. Keep these short stop start miles off the big car. The key however is access to cost effective insurance and therein lies the rub.

A near end of life leaf ? once the Leaf has a battery that is useful to someone it is not near end of life, even when the battery isn't useful a new one can be got for 5,500 Euro's installed, at today's price. Five years down the road, that could be half or less. Compared to a new Prius battery that's unbelievable good value. Leaf battery 24 Kwh, Prius battery (non plug in) 1 Kwh ( NiMh not Lithium).

zilog_jones

€5,500 is still not economically viable when you can just buy a replacement car for that kind of price - comparing it to the cost of a Prius battery is academic as they're in the same boat (although cheaper alternatives are more readily available for the latter).

I think Nissan and other (non-Tesla) EV manufacturers should think more about offering uprated replacement batteries for these vehicles. A six-year old Leaf with a dead battery is probably a perfectly serviceable vehicle in every other respect - the possibility of actually being able to upgrade the vehicle with a 30 kWh battery (or larger, maybe charger upgrade too) might convince more people to fork out a few grand for an old car, and it will give the main dealer mechanics something to do. They'd probably still need to get the price down a few thousand though...

On the contrary, 5,500 is very economical if the car can go another 10 years.

As I said, that's today's price.

Larger Kwh batteries will last much longer due to being cycled much less, of course there are other contributing factors to battery capacity loss apart from cycling, i.e , charging and discharging being the much greater contributor to a small battery.

isnottheword

zilog_jones wrote: »

€5,500 is still not economically viable when you can just buy a replacement car for that kind of price - comparing it to the cost of a Prius battery is academic as they're in the same boat (although cheaper alternatives are more readily available for the latter)

I wouldn't be keen on paying that amount either (I'd *think* about it I guess...) but my hope would be that battery tech will have moved on and those old battery replacements will be cheaper (or sourced from someone other than the car manufacturer. By that, I still mean coming from a reputable multi-national supplier).
That said, it's possible right now to get your Leaf battery reconditioned for approximately £1500. Again, I'd hope that this would come down in price also - by the time I need it - but even if not, I'd probably run with that option.

zilog_jones wrote:

I think Nissan and other (non-Tesla) EV manufacturers should think more about offering uprated replacement batteries for these vehicles. A six-year old Leaf with a dead battery is probably a perfectly serviceable vehicle in every other respect - the possibility of actually being able to upgrade the vehicle with a 30 kWh battery (or larger, maybe charger upgrade too) might convince more people to fork out a few grand for an old car, and it will give the main dealer mechanics something to do. They'd probably still need to get the price down a few thousand though...

I'd agree with you. However, they want us back on the market buying new again - so its quite possible that they will not accommodate too much leap frogging in terms of replacing with upgraded batteries - not in the interests of their balance sheets.

By the time most people need a new leaf battery for the current gen the cost will have fallen dramatically. It's a very durable battery.

Reconditioning a battery won't give you 100% capacity. Nissan will recondition to around 75% as it stands now.