Cheapest Leaf is €7.5k here but only €5.5k in the UK

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

Reconditioning a battery won't give you 100% capacity. Nissan will recondition to around 75% as it stands now.

You're quite right - indra.co.uk will guarantee reconditioning to 90%. I might do it before selling it on - or do it - and hang on to it.

It would mean it would be a great buy for someone that's just using it around town, school runs, etc. - at what would be a small price point at that stage.

How can Indra.co.uk guarantee 90% ? the only way to do this would be to purchase cells of 90% capacity. and rebuild the whole pack with cells of exactly the same capacity and internal resistance.

If you buy a new battery from Nissan , for the 2011-2013 first Gen, Nissan guaranteed the current gen battery tech which is much more durable.

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

How can Indra.co.uk guarantee 90% ? the only way to do this would be to purchase cells of 90% capacity. and rebuild the whole pack with cells of exactly the same capacity and internal resistance.

If you buy a new battery from Nissan , for the 2011-2013 first Gen, Nissan guaranteed the current gen battery tech which is much more durable.

I couldn't say for sure - but they test each and every cell - and replace the bad ones. There probably have not been many through the process with them at this point - and certainly not for Gen. 1.5 so will have more feedback by the time mine gets to that stage.

isnottheword

isnottheword wrote: »

I couldn't say for sure - but they test each and every cell - and replace the bad ones. There probably have not been many through the process with them at this point - and certainly not for Gen. 1.5 so will have more feedback by the time mine gets to that stage.

That is a nightmare of a task because you have to match each cell by the internal resistance.

As a cell ages it's internal resistance gets higher , meaning it will reach low voltage sooner than the cell with less internal resistance for the same load, so the pack will preform as good as the weaker group of cells.

They'd want to be offering a pretty damn good warranty..........

I would imaging in the long term the Nissan brand new pack would offer much better value for money.

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

That is a nightmare of a task because you have to match each cell by the internal resistance.

As a cell ages it's internal resistance gets higher , meaning it will reach low voltage sooner than the cell with less internal resistance for the same load, so the pack will preform as good as the weaker group of cells.

They'd want to be offering a pretty damn good warranty..........

I would imaging in the long term the Nissan brand new pack would offer much better value for money.

The following lifted from a post by Mike Schooling of indra.co.uk on speakev.com forum;


Essentially we'll refurb a leaf battery to above 90% health for a flat rate of £1500.

That assumes no more than 2 modules (of the 48) need replacing which is normally fine for lower mileage cars.

We have had some higher mileage cars where quite a few modules have failed and it becomes more economical to replace the entire battery.


As it stands right now, this guy seems to have developed a pretty good reputation. As time goes on, we're likely to see more tangible feedback from those that have been through the process. Likewise, we will see where original battery packs end up price wise also.

isnottheword

isnottheword wrote: »

The following lifted from a post by Mike Schooling of indra.co.uk on speakev.com forum;


Essentially we'll refurb a leaf battery to above 90% health for a flat rate of £1500.

That assumes no more than 2 modules (of the 48) need replacing which is normally fine for lower mileage cars.

We have had some higher mileage cars where quite a few modules have failed and it becomes more economical to replace the entire battery.


As it stands right now, this guy seems to have developed a pretty good reputation. As time goes on, we're likely to see more tangible feedback from those that have been through the process. Likewise, we will see where original battery packs end up price wise also.

That means the majority off batteries need to be replaced. Most original leaf models won't loose 3 capacity bars for a good few years, though there is one higher mileage leaf driver on the Irish EV owners FB group getting a new battery, I can't remember the mileage he has on it but it's a lot + he'll be getting the much more durable current gen battery chemistry.

I can't imagine the current gen ( late 2013 + ) loosing 3 bars for a lot longer. Even with 3 capacity bars lost I'd be able to cover my work commute or roughly 28,000 - 30,000 kms with work charging lasting me many years.

Of course I won't be keeping it but it shows that if someone can get work charging a Leaf can last many years.

Though there are longer range electrics coming in the next few years, the Renault Zoe now offering 40 Kwh for twice the range, this battery should last a very long time because most people won't be driving 220-280 kms per day there'll be a lot less stress on the battery. And if you loose 30% you'll still have 28 Kwh left which is the same as a brand new 30 Kwh Leaf.

isnottheword

yep, well all I'm saying is that for those that own car and battery and intend hanging on to them for longer, then it's an area worth keeping tabs on. I'd hope that battery prices will come down and refurb costs will come down. Furthermore, there will be greater feedback from those that have gone through the refurb process as we go along. As it stands, those guys have only had gen 1 customers thus far - no gen 1.5 just yet.

I doubt many will be able to have their battery reconditioned.

I also don't know if there will be a market for this kind of business in the years to come when most EV batteries will last the usable life of the car, it depends on how many 20-40 Kwh Electrics are sold and if manufacturers offer smaller batteries which is unlikely as costs drop.

Why Nissan guarantee only around 75% capacity after reconditioning is due to the cell matching process, they will then strip down the battery cell by cell and test the individual cells and match up those with similar voltages and internal resistance. And because a battery is only deemed end of life from about 75 % capacity it makes sense that Nissan will only be able to get older cells of similar capacity. You can't recondition your battery at 85% capacity for instance so there'll not be any 85% cells available unless they come from crashed cars.

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

I doubt many will be able to have their battery reconditioned.

You may well be right - or you well be wrong - it's speculative. They can have them reconditioned right now if they want to - but I guess what you're asking really is whether its feasible to do so.

Deleted User wrote: »

I also don't know if there will be a market for this kind of business in the years to come when most EV batteries will last the usable life of the car, it depends on how many 20-40 Kwh Electrics are sold and if manufacturers offer smaller batteries which is unlikely as costs drop.

Correct - you don't know. Batteries get bigger and although they become more cost efficient, they're more expensive as they're bigger in terms of capacity.

All depends - on form factors, whether they can be utilised with older stock. Granted, manufacturers will have no incentive to facilitate that. However, if as you've speculated, there's going to be a sea-change and EV's get the upper hand, then there will be third party service providers - in the same way as there are for the existing motor industry. There will be numerous battery manufacturers in time - as the technology starts to mature.

isnottheword

isnottheword wrote: »

You may well be right - or you well be wrong - it's speculative. They can have them reconditioned right now if they want to - but I guess what you're asking really is whether its feasible to do so.



Correct - you don't know. Batteries get bigger and although they become more cost efficient, they're more expensive as they're bigger in terms of capacity.

All depends - on form factors, whether they can be utilised with older stock. Granted, manufacturers will have no incentive to facilitate that. However, if as you've speculated, there's going to be a sea-change and EV's get the upper hand, then there will be third party service providers - in the same way as there are for the existing motor industry. There will be numerous battery manufacturers in time - as the technology starts to mature.

Battery tech will improve to the point you won't need to replace them. We'r not that far from that point.

350 km range electrics will start to appear in the next year , these batteries will be cycles far less lasting much longer, a 30% range loss will still make them useable. I doubt many people will replace them for the life of the car.

Any company wanting to replace batteries will have a long wait........

It might work for some established companies today for early Gen leafs only because they do conversions, but I bet they will be out of business in the not so distant future.

Who knows the future really, anything can happen. It could be just as possible that cars are sold like mobiles, you lease it for x years and flog it, the car is recycled the battery goes for grid storage.

Perhaps electric companies will sell EV's like mobile operators sell mobiles.

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

Battery tech will improve to the point you won't need to replace them. We'r not that far from that point.

350 km range electrics will start to appear in the next year , these batteries will be cycles far less lasting much longer, a 30% range loss will still make them useable. I doubt many people will replace them for the life of the car.

Many variables in the above. As regards us 'not being far from that point, all depends - in the eye of the beholder. Longer for those for whom it's not an affordable option. Even then, the development doesn't stop there. Rate at which vehicles can be charged is another area of development.

Deleted User wrote: »

Any company wanting to replace batteries will have a long wait........

Eh, no they will be working on gen1, gen 1.5, gen 2.0 Leafs. This is an evolving technology - it's far from the point of consolidation yet.

Deleted User wrote: »

It might work for some established companies today for early Gen leafs only because they do conversions, but I bet they will be out of business in the not so distant future.

I disagree. Who's to say that they can't find a way to install higher capacity batteries? Before you start on about integrity of said batteries, I'm saying that it's quite possible that multinational battery manufacturers will sell outside of manufacturer control ...ergo...there won't be an integrity/quality issue with said batteries. Of course there are obstacles to be overcome - but you can't say for definite that this may not happen.

Deleted User wrote: »

Who knows the future really, anything can happen.

Ok, well I agree - and you're answering your own post with that statement.

Deleted User wrote: »

It could be just as possible that cars are sold like mobiles, you lease it for x years and flog it, the car is recycled the battery goes for grid storage. Perhaps electric companies will sell EV's like mobile operators sell mobiles.

Perhaps they will - but as with the mobile operators, they won't get a cent from me. NEVER entered into a contract with a mobile phone company - and always bought phone outright.

k123456

Can someone clarify for me please

the difference between Leaf 1.5 and V 2


I am aware of the differences between 1 and 1.5 and how to identify a V 1 leaf (light colored seats, protrusion in boot to accommodate v1 battery , handbrake lever not in footwell etc)


In terms of battery degradation, is there any difference in battery on 1.5 vs 2.0

Thanks

KCross

k123456 wrote: »

Can someone clarify for me please

the difference between Leaf 1.5 and V 2


I am aware of the differences between 1 and 1.5 and how to identify a V 1 leaf (light colored seats, protrusion in boot to accommodate v1 battery , handbrake lever not in footwell etc)


In terms of battery degradation, is there any difference in battery on 1.5 vs 2.0

Thanks

v2 doesnt exist yet.

Roughly speaking....
v1

2010-2013

v1.5

2014-present as 24kWh model with updated battery chemistry

v1.75

2016-present as 30kWh model

v2.0

doesnt exist yet, maybe 2018.

k123456

k123456 wrote: »

Can someone clarify for me please

the difference between Leaf 1.5 and V 2


I am aware of the differences between 1 and 1.5 and how to identify a V 1 leaf (light colored seats, protrusion in boot to accommodate v1 battery , handbrake lever not in footwell etc)


In terms of battery degradation, is there any difference in battery on 1.5 vs 2.0

Thanks

Yes, the current gen 24 Kwh is vastly more resistant to hammering it with fast charging, the original leaf could loose 1-2 capacity bars by 80-90,000 Kms and earlier as found in the U.k that had much less fast charges.

Some updated current Gen Leaf taxi's in the U.K, from about 2013 (the updated model) have driven 160,000 Kms without loosing a capacity bar even with a massive amount of fast charges.

So yes the updated leaf with the much improved battery is definitely the one to get.

There's not much data for the 30 Kwh battery but there's no evidence yet that battery degradation is better or worse than the 24 Kwh, it does get a good bit warmer on the fast charger because the battery charges at a higher rate of current, no evidence yet if this is an issue.

In the U.S the 30 Kwh has suffered heat related degradation as much as the 24 Kwh, but early days yet to see how it holds up in an Irish , U.K climate.

By the way, one of the U.K taxis with 160,000 Kms and fast charged to death, had just under 10% capacity loss, it wouldn't be unusual for Irish Gen I leafs to loose a capacity bar by 75,000 Kms.

It's quiet possible the current 24 Kwh may perhaps go 180,000 - 200,000 Kms before loosing a capacity bar because they won't be fast charged so much as a Taxi. Time will tell, obviously, there are other factors that contribute to capacity loss.

k123456

Ok Thanks for clarifying