Luas Crash

The Talking Bread

stevek93 wrote: »

I was on the Luas when it happened.

I have to say it was handled very poorly, no one asked where passengers OK. More annoyingly the security came over to everyone shouting to leave the area very intimidating.

I have made a complaint to Luas.

Intimidating?? In what respect? Not doubting you, just wondering how it played out.

lawred2

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Intimidating?? In what respect? Not doubting you, just wondering how it played out.

Probably a whole pile of rubbernecking eejits trying to get closer to see the bus

IE 222

I can see how this would of happened. That bus takes a very Sharpe turn just before the luas line.

If you're not clued in the last thing you expect to see is a luas as it kind of comes out of nowhere on that road. The hoarding plays havoc here as well blocking the view of drivers. Also these tour bus drivers are given a talk to passengers as well which must be a massive distraction IMO. I'd regard this the same as been on the phone.

Not defending the bus driver but easily see how this happened. Them lights should be placed at the road junction he turned from.

The Talking Bread

IE 222 wrote: »

I can see how this would of happened. That bus takes a very Sharpe turn just before the luas line.

If you're not clued in the last thing you expect to see is a luas as it kind of comes out of nowhere on that road. The hoarding plays havoc here as well blocking the view of drivers. Also these tour bus drivers are given a talk to passengers as well which must be a massive distraction IMO. I'd regard this the same as been on the phone.

Not defending the bus driver but easily see how this happened. Them lights should be placed at the road junction he turned from.

The bus driver would make that exact journey route 3 or 4 times a day. The first thing you should anticipate is a LUAS to be honest.

stevek93

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Intimidating?? In what respect? Not doubting you, just wondering how it played out.

Intimidating that you have been in a accident still in shock not quite fully understanding what has just happened and there is someone aggressively shouting at you to go on your merry way.

Jamie2k9

stevek93 wrote: »

I was on the Luas when it happened.

I have to say it was handled very poorly, no one asked where passengers OK. More annoyingly the security came over to everyone shouting to leave the area very intimidating.

I have made a complaint to Luas.

With respect who did you expect to ask if you were alright?

Of course security should of asked people to leave, with glass everywhere and people standing around for no good reason. Would say many saw €€€€ signs and wanted to stay close!

markpb

Jamie2k9 wrote:

With respect who did you expect to ask if you were alright?

Did you misread the post you're replying to!? Luas staff attending the scene, Garda and DFB staff could and should have checked everyone who was on the tram when it happened. What do you think should happen to passengers on a tram that is involved in an incident?

Jamie2k9 wrote:

Of course security should of asked people to leave, with glass everywhere and people standing around for no good reason. Would say many saw €€€€ signs and wanted to stay close!

People not involved in the incident should be kept at bay. People involved in the incident should be marshaled, triaged and dealt with properly.

Jamie2k9

markpb wrote: »

Did you misread the post you're replying to!? Luas staff attending the scene, Garda and DFB staff could and should have checked everyone who was on the tram when it happened. What do you think should happen to passengers on a tram that is involved in an incident?

People not involved in the incident should be kept at bay. People involved in the incident should be marshaled, triaged and dealt with properly.

I think people who are injured are big and bold enough to present to Ambulance staff themselves. Emergency services have enough to deal with.

I am not saying it was handled wonderfully but I think some prospective is needed.

From what I have seem a lot of people were just standing around and there was one video where people were stilling quiet happily on the tram as if nothing happened. People involved as well as those not involved standing right outside the tram should of been moved on.

The Talking Bread

Would the emergency services not have been there quicker than the Transdev security ??

Jamie2k9

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Would the emergency services not have been there quicker than the Transdev security ??

Unless security were at the stop or on board, you would hope so.

The Talking Bread

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Unless security were at the stop or on board, you would hope so.

Of course, so surely by the time the Transdev security arrived (from Connolly and Red Cow) the emergency services would have been in full swing and the Transdev security guys would have the job of marshalling the scene merely.

I am just not sure what way they were aggressive or how far the poster was asked to move back?

I am not doubting the commuter, I just think you have to put yourself in their boots. Lots of people standing around, taking photos and obstructing emergency crew doesn't help and they need to be somewhat authorative.

Jamie2k9

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Of course, so surely by the time the Transdev security arrived (from Connolly and Red Cow) the emergency services would have been in full swing and the Transdev security guys would have the job of marshalling the scene merely.

I am just not sure what way they were aggressive or how far the poster was asked to move back?

Indeed I agree,

TBH when you are dealing with groups of people in most cases people don't understand and/or don't bother listening so shouting at people only helps. I'm sure when they asked people to move away, they actually meant well away from the tram and not maybe a step or two like I expect was the case.

It's like if you told move back from the edge of a platform, not to overload trams or move down the center of the tram......do people listen, no!

ted1

mrcheez wrote: »

Looks pretty half-way to me so plenty of time to see the Luas

That's the end photo ,it hit the drivers cabin and the emergency brakes activated resulting in it stopping a few metres later

Glass fused light

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I think people who are injured are big and bold enough to present to Ambulance staff themselves. Emergency services have enough to deal with.

This is the first thing people are told not to assume on a first aid course.
The ones sitting still and not interacting should be checked first as it possible that the reason for no activity is that they have near fatal injuries and as a result don't have the ability to be up and wandering around.

In this instance it could be possible that a passenger had hit their head and did not have the mental capacity to present themselves to anyone. Or if they are in shock they dont realise they are hurt.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I am not saying it was handled wonderfully but I think some prospective is needed.

From what I have seem a lot of people were just standing around and there was one video where people were stilling quiet happily on the tram as if nothing happened. People involved as well as those not involved standing right outside the tram should of been moved on.

The staff assisting at that traffic accident should first assess the scene and determine if there is a ongoing danger to having people stay where they are.

If there is the staff should be prepared pick and to move them to a specific 'safe' area so that there is not a situation where a person on an adrenalin rush wanders off and gets no assistance and turns up in hospital later that day with injuries which should have been treated at the scene. and if you want to be cynical about the insurance payout, failure of staff to look out for the injured would only add to the trauma end of the payout, as passengers feeling poorly serviced by staff are more likely to feel entitled to damages.

Imo shouting at people in small groups is rude and inefficient. Either shush at them for quiet or just pick the nearest group that you want to move get their attention make sure no one needs immediate medical attention then give them a clear instruction that help is on its way and lead them to where they should move to. To keep them at the new spot by give them each the first aid task of ensuring that members of the group either side of them dont wander off due to 'shock' and they stay until Gardai/staff get their contact details. After getting a group or two moving others will start to follow and hopefuly the informed group members will explain why they moved to the new spot too.

If there was no danger such as electrics or cracked window etc what is the the harm in leaving people tram, it keeps them warm/dry and in a sitting position. And they are easy to identify as passengers.
Keeping people at the scene to collect witness statements as either passengers or passerby is important too as the Gardai and the company will want to collect as much information as possible.

stevek93

ted1 wrote: »

That's the end photo ,it hit the drivers cabin and the emergency brakes activated resulting in it stopping a few metres later

Exactly what happened, at first I thought the tram derailed and was about to topple over. The bus stopped outside my window I was sitting closest to the window. Don't know how the glass didn’t break. Not too sure if it did derail but it felt like it.

I Didn't even notice a bus hit into us until I got off the Luas. Everyone was in shock, few of us tying to help people up who fell over. Glass everywhere poor girl got glass in her eye. Poor driver was so shook he could barely stand.
To the Luas security staff, you made the situation 100 times worse with your aggressive shouting and acting like a bouncer of a night club would. I get its your job to act tough but in all serious lads you could have handed the situation a lot better. Ask who was on the Luas put them aside check is everyone OK and the rest of the public who are just being noisy to feck off.


Not something I want to experience again.

markpb

stevek93 wrote: »

To the Luas security staff, you made the situation 100 times worse with your aggressive shouting and acting like a bouncer of a night club would. I get its your job to act tough but in all serious lads you could have handed the situation a lot better. Ask who was on the Luas put them aside check is everyone OK and the rest of the public who are just being noisy to feck off.

To be fair to them, they have probably received little or no training in how to react to an incident like this. Their job is security, not first aid or incident response. DFB are trained to respond properly. I'm guessing the security guards were the closest Luas staff and were trying to help as best they could.

Glass fused light

markpb wrote: »

To be fair to them, they have probably received little or no training in how to react to an incident like this. Their job is security, not first aid or incident response. DFB are trained to respond properly. I'm guessing the security guards were the closest Luas staff and were trying to help as best they could.

If they were onboard at the time of the crash they should be trained and instructed on how to react or not react as the case.

If they were sent and have no training that the company's fault they should not be sent at an incident or trying to manage the incident if they have no training. Basic people management skills for how to deal with injured people should be part of the training in security. They end up having to deal with the victim as well as the security risk eg an assault has two aspects the crime and the aftermath for the victim.

People can react badly when they are in shock and are dealing with an adrenalin rush, so aggression from staff rather than calm could triggers more adrenalin fight or flight reactions.

In this current risk management era I would say that even if the staff have no first aid training, they should be given basic training on how to manage a traffic incident, even if it is that they phone HQ and are give instructions. It's not as if this is a unique event for the Luas and as a busy tram can carry 250+ people the company would have a written procedure in how to manage a crash, and should do proper staff training with the public facing staff on dealing with it.

ITV2

Tickityboo wrote: »

It wasn't a Dublin Bus!!

stevek93

ITV2 wrote: »

Lucky there was no one upstairs on the bus.

The Talking Bread

I don't know, I have seen a fair few people commenting on Journal.ie and a few other social media sites regarding the incident (both onlookers and a few commuters) over the last 24 hours and there wasn't any reference to aggression or over the top stewarding by the security personnell.

There is a hell of a lot of pictures though of people crowding the area to have a gawk and take photos and with medical teams around and safety personnell, obviously there needs to be some authority.

Obviously people will react to this line of security operation ordering differently and there was also a lot of pressure on these guys but I can't imagine it was directly after the accident that the security personnell were in their faces shouting orders for them to move back as they would not have been on the scene that quick.

The first aid personnell, ie paramedics, fire crew and even guards would have been on the scene much quicker and their duty is moreso tending to the commuters.
Most of these LUAS security guards are merely that, security guards. The chances, at that stage is that most in the direct vicinity gawking at the tram and overstepping the boundried area were probably not even involved.

I am not disputing the posters claims but I have seen urban traffic accident emergency scenes before and the congestion by onlookers is very frustrating. People also depict what is aggression or verbal intimidation differently, especially in an accident.

Look at this for instance, one of the worst LUAS incidents and hundreds of people obstructing and standing around. That is the sh1t these guys have to put up with. It is a large open space in that area with plenty of room to push back from the scene yesterday so the emergency crew and incident team can operate effectively.



I amn't sure how the operation went about. But I can envisage that the security guards couldn't be expected to approach every individual and ask them how they are.

I just think there are a lot more factors to this to consider. It would be interesting to hear other people's experience from yesterday.

Also, how quick the Transdev Incident team reached the scene.

The Talking Bread

Also, it is very easy to look intimidating visually for these guys. 6 foot 2, bulky men in those large black security jackets. Lets be honest, you would be more intimidated by someone of that stature asking you to step back than, say a female or male 5 foot 6 paramedic asking you to step back..

There is a photo of a woman dragging a pram out of the door of the tram from yesterday and people standing around taking photos. There has to be a balance here.

Jamie2k9

This is the first thing people are told not to assume on a first aid course.
The ones sitting still and not interacting should be checked first as it possible that the reason for no activity is that they have near fatal injuries and as a result don't have the ability to be up and wandering around.

In this instance it could be possible that a passenger had hit their head and did not have the mental capacity to present themselves to anyone. Or if they are in shock they dont realise they are hurt.

Fair point but come on, add some reality to the situation.....

The staff assisting at that traffic accident should first assess the scene and determine if there is a ongoing danger to having people stay where they are.

If there is the staff should be prepared pick and to move them to a specific 'safe' area so that there is not a situation where a person on an adrenalin rush wanders off and gets no assistance and turns up in hospital later that day with injuries which should have been treated at the scene. and if you want to be cynical about the insurance payout, failure of staff to look out for the injured would only add to the trauma end of the payout, as passengers feeling poorly serviced by staff are more likely to feel entitled to damages.

Imo shouting at people in small groups is rude and inefficient. Either shush at them for quiet or just pick the nearest group that you want to move get their attention make sure no one needs immediate medical attention then give them a clear instruction that help is on its way and lead them to where they should move to. To keep them at the new spot by give them each the first aid task of ensuring that members of the group either side of them dont wander off due to 'shock' and they stay until Gardai/staff get their contact details. After getting a group or two moving others will start to follow and hopefuly the informed group members will explain why they moved to the new spot too.

If there was no danger such as electrics or cracked window etc what is the the harm in leaving people tram, it keeps them warm/dry and in a sitting position. And they are easy to identify as passengers.
Keeping people at the scene to collect witness statements as either passengers or passerby is important too as the Gardai and the company will want to collect as much information as possible.

It would be in the passenger interests to give statements but they know a lot less than the CCTV in the area.

A tram full of glass....reference to the bold.

Like I said above handing may of not been perfect but it's the first accident of this nature for LUAS. All others have been a car hitting the front or a tram driving into a bus. I don't believe there has been one where a bus clipped around half the tram and shattered most glass in it's line. Most other cases passengers would barely know they were involved in an accident.

gahsux

Here we go again:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/luas-line-closed-after-female-passenger-injured-in-crash-35276063.html

Gatling

gahsux wrote: »

Here we go again:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/luas-line-closed-after-female-passenger-injured-in-crash-35276063.html

Delayed me earlier apparently the driver of the car ran a light

Del.Monte

Without knowing the details it just reinforces my belief that there are a lot of motorists out there who shouldn't be on the road.

seamus

Del.Monte wrote: »

Without knowing the details it just reinforces my belief that there are a lot of motorists out there who shouldn't be on the road.

If we were being honest with ourselves, most of us shouldn't be on the road if there were even the slightest alternative available.

Autonomous vehicles really can't come soon enough.

Ferrari3600

Banjoxed wrote: »

While studiously avoiding comment on the case in hand, I wonder will some/many drivers in Ireland be able to stop driving like d*cks? That would solve problems but won't happen.

Ireland's roads are very safe by international standards, contrary to whatever anti-motorist propaganda you like to chant to yourself.

Gatling

That particular spot is bad as soon as the lights go red to allow the luas to cross people start hammering the horn as if it's going to make the luas cross quicker

Roadhawk

Ferrari3600 wrote: »

Ireland's roads are very safe by international standards, contrary to whatever anti-motorist propaganda you like to chant to yourself.

and they are consistently improving on the stats

magicbastarder

which stats? road deaths are up this year (though i'd happily accept that's a statistical thing due to more cars on the road, probably).

Roadhawk

What speeds does a luas reach?

big syke

Collisions are narrowly avoided daily at that spot. Stupid drivers think a green filter arrow pointing forward gives them a right to turn right.

Roadhawk

magicbastarder wrote: »

which stats? road deaths are up this year (though i'd happily accept that's a statistical thing due to more cars on the road, probably).

Oh yeah...165 fatilites last year and already 175 so far this year.

In general the curve is going down:

Year:Fatality count
2000 415
2001 411
2002 376
2003 335
2004 374
2005 396
2006 365
2007 338
2008 279
2009 238
2010 212
2011 186
2012 161
2013 190
2014 197
2015 165
2016 175 so far...

magicbastarder

looking at the numbers, they were in a fairly steady state from 2002-2007, and then fell; would be interesting to see how that compares with the number of cars on the road. statistically, the raw figures could hide an upswing in danger.

Blowfish

Gatling wrote: »

That particular spot is bad as soon as the lights go red to allow the luas to cross people start hammering the horn as if it's going to make the luas cross quicker

Indeed, no idea what it is about that particular junction, I'm around it a lot and have seen 4 different accidents over the past while there, one involving 2 cars, two involving cars and pedestrians (most recent was only a few weeks ago) and then this one.

In fact 2 days ago I was crossing on green as a pedestrian and a car skipped a red, if I hadn't been paying attention and stopped, they would have hit me.

Roadhawk wrote: »

What speeds does a luas reach?

At that junction, it'd be going pretty slowly, there's a bend just before the junction, plus the Hospital stop is just after so it would have been slowing down anyway.

Roadhawk

Blowfish wrote: »

At that junction, it'd be going pretty slowly, there's a bend just before the junction, plus the Hospital stop is just after so it would have been slowing down anyway.

Ah i see. i was just wondering how it could de-rail so easily. It looks like an accordion in the pictures. Maybe the Luas should slow down coming through junctions and be allowed at full tilt only on long stretches in between?

Gatling

Roadhawk wrote: »

Ah i see. i was just wondering how it could de-rail so easily. It looks like an accordion in the pictures. Maybe the Luas should slow down coming through junctions and be allowed at full tilt only on long stretches in between?

At the point where it was hit it would have been slowing for a stop at the hospital as another poster pointed out ,that audi had to be flying when it hit

Jamie2k9

Roadhawk wrote: »

Blowfish wrote: »

At that junction, it'd be going pretty slowly, there's a bend just before the junction, plus the Hospital stop is just after so it would have been slowing down anyway.

Ah i see. i was just wondering how it could de-rail so easily. It looks like an accordion in the pictures. Maybe the Luas should slow down coming through junctions and be allowed at full tilt only on long stretches in between?

What are u on about?

The Luas will always slow approching a signal as they never clear trams in most cases until trams are very close. 20-30 mph is nothing.

Prehaps if this and all motorists has an eye test and learn what colors traffic lights are there would be no problem.

Sierra Oscar

gahsux wrote: »

Here we go again:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/luas-line-closed-after-female-passenger-injured-in-crash-35276063.html

Happened to pass that accident earlier today, it looked pretty nasty. Worse than your usual Luas collision.

ED E

Add a bye law:
- Any driver who collides with a luas in the wrong
- Any driver who collides with a railway structure
shall be banned from driving for life.

Put signs at the appropriate junctions. Reduce the number of darwin awards that need to be issued.

Gatling

It's getting to the stage level crossing barriers will have to be installed at every junction

seamus

ED E wrote: »

Add a bye law:
- Any driver who collides with a luas in the wrong
- Any driver who collides with a railway structure
shall be banned from driving for life.

Put signs at the appropriate junctions. Reduce the number of darwin awards that need to be issued.

You see, you never hear how these things get followed up. One would expect at a minimum that the Gardai would proceed to prosecute him on a dangerous driving charge. You can't collide with an object on rails unless you're driving dangerously.

Hopefully the jump in his insurance premium might force him off the road. But people are rarely that pragmatic when it comes to driving and would rather put themselves in serious debt than give up their car.

Granolite

seamus wrote: »

You see, you never hear how these things get followed up. One would expect at a minimum that the Gardai would proceed to prosecute her on a dangerous driving charge. You can't collide with an object on rails unless you're driving dangerously.

Hopefully the jump in her insurance premium might force her off the road. But people are rarely that pragmatic when it comes to driving and would rather put themselves in serious debt than give up their car.

If the article is correct it was as a male motorist and not a female driver..you may have been confused by the article's sub-headline phrasing.

seamus

Spot on. Corrected, thanks

Sam Russell

ED E wrote: »

Add a bye law:
- Any driver who collides with a luas in the wrong
- Any driver who collides with a railway structure
shall be banned from driving for life.

Put signs at the appropriate junctions. Reduce the number of darwin awards that need to be issued.

You could add buses to that list.

Mortpourvelo

Near miss again yesterday - quick question, LEGALLY can cyclists ride on LUAS tracks ?

Coming down from James' to Heuston last night one was going at a hell of a lick, no lights or anything - against the LUAS (i.e. LUAS coming from Museum and cyclist on same track going opposite way).

That has to be illegal surely ?

Carlos Orange

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Near miss again yesterday - quick question, LEGALLY can cyclists ride on LUAS tracks ?

Coming down from James' to Heuston last night one was going at a hell of a lick, no lights or anything - against the LUAS (i.e. LUAS coming from Museum and cyclist on same track going opposite way).

That has to be illegal surely ?

I kinda thought it wasn't legal and it seems like it isn't but many cyclists don't factor the law too much into their decision making. I think they are required to have lights too.

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/19/cycling-fines-what-you-need-to-know-from-august-1/

Mortpourvelo

psinno wrote: »

I kinda thought it wasn't legal and it seems like it isn't but many cyclists don't factor the law too much into their decision making. I think they are required to have lights too.

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/19/cycling-fines-what-you-need-to-know-from-august-1/

Cheers for that. Even by some stretch of the imagination - if it was legal to play chicken with a ten tonne tram, it's bloody ridiculous!!!

seamus

It's legal to cycle on some LUAS tracks - I think all the same ones as cars can drive on, though there may be one or two exceptions.

The section from James's to Heuston is messy because there's about 100m at the Heuston end of Steeven's lane where it's not legal, but then it's perfectly legal on the rest. They made a serious error by not including a cycle track there.

Mortpourvelo

seamus wrote: »

It's legal to cycle on some LUAS tracks - I think all the same ones as cars can drive on, though there may be one or two exceptions.

The section from James's to Heuston is messy because there's about 100m at the Heuston end of Steeven's lane where it's not legal, but then it's perfectly legal on the rest. They made a serious error by not including a cycle track there.

Thanks, I didn't know that. So you have to go through an illegal spot to get from one legal one to another ? Jesus that's messed up planning that!!!!