ICBF Eurostar ratings

Bellview

Reviewed mine. As usual a load of changes but the averages still work out ok... so my opinion doesnt change its still a lottery and icbf really need to get more credibility into their numbers especially where stock bulls are being used. I often wonder is the scheme a little anti the stock bull.

One of my worst cows has roared ahead to top of the charts in the herd. Only reason she has survived last 3 years is she had a bull each year..that is ranked easy Calving so she works out OK into dairy herds. While one of the best breeding cows is now gone completely in the toilet...her only daughter is also doing the business and has also jumped into the toilet also despite both having milk calving at 2 etc.

Any cow that has been genotyped will her results stay as is today or are they still subject to the lottery. Would be nice for som stability even if we dont agree with all the ratings.

barnaman

had a heifer go from 3 star to 2 star to 5 star genotyped in Aug 16 to 3 star genotyped in Jan 17. Reliability gone from 26% to 34% now, it seemed with this heifer to be going up in 2%.

I would rate her a 4 star nice but not outstanding. Lovely temper which is as important as anything

had more drop than rise but all low relability

dodo mommy

Can someone explain to me how can full sisters both genotyped can have different replacement values one is at 106 euros and the other is at 79 euros neither have had a calf yet?

charolais0153

dodo mommy wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how can full sisters both genotyped can have different replacement values one is at 106 euros and the other is at 79 euros neither have had a calf yet?

They have different genes.its a bit like full sisters in people... They aren't all going to be same height,weight.intelligence etc. I doubt these full sisters are exactly the same physically so I doubt they'd be the exact same genomically

blue5000

Bellview wrote: »

Reviewed mine. As usual a load of changes but the averages still work out ok... so my opinion doesnt change its still a lottery and icbf really need to get more credibility into their numbers especially where stock bulls are being used. I often wonder is the scheme a little anti the stock bull.

One of my worst cows has roared ahead to top of the charts in the herd. Only reason she has survived last 3 years is she had a bull each year..that is ranked easy Calving so she works out OK into dairy herds. While one of the best breeding cows is now gone completely in the toilet...her only daughter is also doing the business and has also jumped into the toilet also despite both having milk calving at 2 etc.

Any cow that has been genotyped will her results stay as is today or are they still subject to the lottery. Would be nice for some stability even if we dont agree with all the ratings.

That's it in a nutshell, and I agree with it being anti stock bull.

Some of you may know I run two stock bulls, an angus and an aubrac. In the August proofs the Aubrac soared ahead to 148 and the angus dropped to 112. This time it's the other way round, angus gone up 15 points and aubrac down 12, with a bit of an effect on the daughters.

Like others here the overall change in the herd isn't huge, but there are big shifts in some cow families. But I did notice cows with more ai sires behind them are more consistent. So I reckon the reason that there is an anti stock bull bias is because of reliability.

Bellview you're selling stock bulls to dairy farmers? You have no way of knowing what calves are being registered to your bull(s), maybe that's part of the problem in your herd. Some of these lads could be registering jerseys to your bull, if this is happening then your figures for conformation anyway are gone out the window.

I suppose we just have to keep at it, it's better than it was 10 years ago, ai is fairly consistent now I think, it's only a matter of time before stock bull reliability improves. It depends on us submitting accurate info, garbage in, garbage out

patsy_mccabe

I've just realised that if you are in the BDGP, you can generate a EURO-Star report any time you like, even if you are not in HerdPLus.
Just log onto ICBF, then;

/ Reports / All reports / BDGP / BDGP EURO Star / generate New Report /

Conchurl

just checked the report for my father and some of the cows went up and some went down but the one that confused me is one went from €63 3* up to €112 5*

Bellview

blue5000 wrote:

Bellview you're selling stock bulls to dairy farmers? You have no way of knowing what calves are being registered to your bull(s), maybe that's part of the problem in your herd. Some of these lads could be registering jerseys to your bull, if this is happening then your figures for conformation anyway are gone out the window.

Annually I get the bull report. There are folks that are registered zero calves from bulls and I know there are calves as one of these boys is a neighbour. Ironically icbf quoted this report as proof that a lot of pedigree bulls are not breeding calf's which annoyed me with icbf no end

The key metric for the angus into dairy is calving diff and then if the bull looks OK the dairy boys generally will give him a second look.

The angus bulls in ai are going the wrong way at the moment as there are a number of terminal type sires in the studs which for beef is ok but not if we want to breed decent cows.. the latest bull by progressive trying to say a bull with double muscle has calving of less than 2 per cent is false while the other Goulding Eamon who is in the maternal program should have difficulty of over 10 per cent while icbf is showing under 5. Bulls like this will do a lot of damage to the easy calving maternal part of the breed and their diffuliculty are just wrong.

Bellview

Conchurl wrote:

just checked the report for my father and some of the cows went up and some went down but the one that confused me is one went from €63 3* up to €112 5*

Unfortunately that happens a lot. You could see reverse next update. If the genotype stopped this madness it would be great but not sure if it will as even cows genotyped still appear with relatively low reliability which gives icbf an opt out in my opinion.
All I'm hoping for is that the averages keep working out so I can qualify for payment as my bad icbf cows calves keep the show on the road with nice cattle while I tolerate a few 5 stars and never keep their daughters so I keep the herd right and still meet the rules.

Bigbird1

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I've just realised that if you are in the BDGP, you can generate a EURO-Star report any time you like, even if you are not in HerdPLus.
Just log onto ICBF, then;

/ Reports / All reports / BDGP / BDGP EURO Star / generate New Report /

Is icbf and herdplus not the one thing?

blue5000

I'm beginning to see why breed societies are peed off with icbf. But it happens anybody who sells cattle live. I used to sell weanling bulls. I know some of them were left out for 3 winters on bad silage/hay around a ring feeder, and the grassland management wouldn't have been too sharp either.

Same goes for weanlings that are exported, chances are they're always the best ones so neither the sires or cows benefit from carcase info.

tanko

Bigbird1 wrote: »

Is icbf and herdplus not the one thing?

It costs €60/year to join herdplus.

KatyMac

Had an accidental stock bull (weanling that was a bit more cheeky than I gave him credit for!) who put two heifers in calf. Two nice calves arrived early in October and are the proud owners of 4 stars each. I just wonder now if the powers-that-be will be demanding I replace him with like! I only realized what he managed to do several months after I sold him as the heifers weren't calling.

dodo mommy

I see ICBF have run an evaluation for February wounded what that's about?

patsy_mccabe

dodo mommy wrote: »

I see ICBF have run an evaluation for February wounded what that's about?

Ya I see that. No harm either. Especially for the calving % data. Lots of new bulls from last year are only starting to have calves on the ground now. A lot of cows calf in the month of January.

I see TOMSCHOICE IRONSTONE (LM2116) had 84 births in the Jan 2017 proof but 260 in the Feb proofs.

Bellview

Cows have been updated as well. Still some crazy moves..but no surprise. Some cows up 30 and another few down.

oneten

What a bunch of bluffers !

annubis

was in mart last week, one thing i noticed in heifer ring was the amount of heifers that had no star rating, presumably not in the scheme, it made me think alot of people mustnt have bothered with scheme, literally only a few heifers showed up with euro star ratings while i was there..

Limestone Cowboy

annubis wrote: »

was in mart last week, one thing i noticed in heifer ring was the amount of heifers that had no star rating, presumably not in the scheme, it made me think alot of people mustnt have bothered with scheme, literally only a few heifers showed up with euro star ratings while i was there..

I think you have to be signed up to herdplus for them to show on the board in Ennis.

patsy_mccabe

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

I think you have to be signed up to herdplus for them to show on the board in Ennis.

If you're in the BDGP scheme only, they will be displayed too.

There are currently 69 marts displaying Euro-Star/EBI figures on animals. The installation of these mart boards is still an on going process so there will be more and more marts displaying figures in the future. In order for animals to have figures displayed on the mart boards they must:

• Reside in a herd that is currently taking part in the Beef, Data and Genomics Programme or a herd who is currently subscribed to ICBF’s subscription service ‘HerdPlus‘

https://www.icbf.com/wp/?p=6686

Bellview

annubis wrote:

was in mart last week, one thing i noticed in heifer ring was the amount of heifers that had no star rating, presumably not in the scheme, it made me think alot of people mustnt have bothered with scheme, literally only a few heifers showed up with euro star ratings while i was there..

Worrying trend here is that icbf are making the stars sound like the bible..never changes and it's accurate and in time icbf will charge us for our own data...

annubis

Bellview wrote: »

Worrying trend here is that icbf are making the stars sound like the bible..never changes and it's accurate and in time icbf will charge us for our own data...

hmm had small dealings with them over a particular animal, wont go into it but just found their behaviour to be very poor in general

RD10

i didnt bother singning up to it this year. i look up the stars for my female animals on the animal search bar for free instead.

Bellview

Will be interesting if many folks will cancel since they doubled cost. I could justify the fee last year. My renewal is in may so I reckon I will cancel...I know of 2 other folks in same boat. I'm OK with increases that are reasonable but double is pushing a bit too far..may be reaction to tag levy .. but the reaction was more akin to a semi state to push problem to current customet base than commercial view of expanding the customer Base by adding value...if icbf lose 50 per cent of base they will be back to square one .. there is a piece of me hopeful they will lose a shed load of customers so that they respect their customers more

annubis

Bellview wrote: »

Will be interesting if many folks will cancel since they doubled cost. I could justify the fee last year. My renewal is in may so I reckon I will cancel...I know of 2 other folks in same boat. I'm OK with increases that are reasonable but double is pushing a bit too far..may be reaction to tag levy .. but the reaction was more akin to a semi state to push problem to current customet base than commercial view of expanding the customer Base by adding value...if icbf lose 50 per cent of base they will be back to square one .. there is a piece of me hopeful they will lose a shed load of customers so that they respect their customers more

didnt hear anything about it going up, thought it stayed at same price if you went direct debit?
what i find it handy for is recording heat and bull used etc, it given you the cows expecte repeat date etc, just handy have it in front of you instead of arsing with calender, also use it above dept site for updating calf details on docility etc

adne

annubis wrote: »

hmm had small dealings with them over a particular animal, wont go into it but just found their behaviour to be very poor in general

Had similar dealings. Really poor behaviour on their half. Almost got the vibe well we know best

charolais0153

So is it one twenty now??

Always found it handy for repeats and when a cow is calving but it won't be renewed in november

High bike

Bellview wrote: »

Cows have been updated as well. Still some crazy moves..but no surprise. Some cows up 30 and another few down.

same here but more ups than downs so I'm not complaining.The problem is I have no idea why and if the reverse happens next time I won't know why either

Bellview

High bike wrote:

same here but more ups than downs so I'm not complaining.The problem is I have no idea why and if the reverse happens next time I won't know why either

Agreed I gained a few 4 stars this time.. but my worry is I could lose them in the next lottery calculation.
I'm now starting to doubt the genomic test as well. I have a cow on calf 11 calves every 365 days or better. Breeds a good type calf and has milk. Her stars were at 2 star so I selected her for the genomic test thinking it will help...when I got the results she is now lucky to be a one star.
I have 2 of her daughters in the yard and they will be staying as they are nice type cows..

blue5000

Bellview wrote: »

Agreed I gained a few 4 stars this time.. but my worry is I could lose them in the next lottery calculation.
I'm now starting to doubt the genomic test as well. I have a cow on calf 11 calves every 365 days or better. Breeds a good type calf and has milk. Her stars were at 2 star so I selected her for the genomic test thinking it will help...when I got the results she is now lucky to be a one star.
I have 2 of her daughters in the yard and they will be staying as they are nice type cows..

What's her sire? If it was a stock bull it might go some of the way to explain it.

Bellview

blue5000 wrote:

What's her sire? If it was a stock bull it might go some of the way to explain it.

Yes a stock bull. I bought her a few years ago and until recently her half sister and her were around the same.. for some simple reason I thought genomics would help correct stars a little. Only lesson is I won't test half sister as I will only feck her up too.

The man in red and black

Bellview wrote: »

Yes a stock bull. I bought her a few years ago and until recently her half sister and her were around the same.. for some simple reason I thought genomics would help correct stars a little. Only lesson is I won't test half sister as I will only feck her up too.

It's the reliability that is catching you out. We had the same at home. Stock bulls don't sire enough off spring to get up into the 90's for % reliability on most traits. The AI lines will have far higher numbers of off spring and so less likely their stars and therefore their offsprings stars will jump erratically.

Bellview

The man in red and black wrote:

It's the reliability that is catching you out. We had the same at home. Stock bulls don't sire enough off spring to get up into the 90's for % reliability on most traits. The AI lines will have far higher numbers of off spring and so less likely their stars and therefore their offsprings stars will jump erratically.

The same bull is well dead as the cow is now 12ish. I thought the genomic test was to find all the gene to tell us the cow value.. as icbf looking at a taste gene they would want to start focus on getting a simple genomic test
Agree on numbers of offspring my last stock bull although still only rated 70 for maternal his stats have started to increase..good news for man that bought him...especially as he is breeding quality stock..just a pity I had too many daughters as too hard with ai etc.

The man in red and black

Bellview wrote: »

The same bull is well dead as the cow is now 12ish. I thought the genomic test was to find all the gene to tell us the cow value.. as icbf looking at a taste gene they would want to start focus on getting a simple genomic test
Agree on numbers of offspring my last stock bull although still only rated 70 for maternal his stats have started to increase..good news for man that bought him...especially as he is breeding quality stock..just a pity I had too many daughters as too hard with ai etc.

The genomic test helps improve the accuracy. Individuals will have their stars influence by all their relations performance also. So all the rest of the off spring sired by same bull, plus the bulls siblings that may be in other herds and how they performed etc. I know our last stock bull sired around 150 calves and we thought he was super...but when a couple of years of his daughters had their own calves we realised they were poor for milk, filled in the BDGP forms accordingly and the bulls stars plummeted. He has actually slipped into minus figures for replacement now so his heifers were hit hard on stars too.

Bellview

Our lad has approx 100 calves now and I calved his daughters at 2 and their calves are kicking on nicely so in time their stars will come on too. I've I made a mistake was not taking semen off him for our own use as it will be a long time before I get another as good for cattle and milk

Bellview

The journal puzzle me at time...especiallybthe dealer column. Not sure what the point of the dealers comments in this week's journal on scratch my back etc
Sales happen by all breds at same time every year and catalogue are printed with what is available at time the printer goes to press...I don't know of any society that plan their sales around icbf..
If its true what is implied that one society had an inside track on new ratings then it also reflects even more poorly on icbf .. this is the type of crap that gives icbf a bad name unless it's true and is a great reason no to trust icbf.
My point is dealer needs to pony up with facts and if true then expose so there is fairness and transparency.

patsy_mccabe

Ya that Dealer section plays to that whole 'Cute Hoor' thing. As in a cattle 'dealer' would have the inside track on everything, unlike the poor gob****e farmer.

Bellview

patsy_mccabe wrote:

Ya that Dealer section plays to that whole 'Cut Hoor' thing. As in a cattle 'dealer' woule have the inside track on everything, unlike the poor gob****e farmer.

Often wonder the purpose at times as more likely to start a fight rather than add value..suppose we can all make statements where our source is a man with 2 pints.
Over the last 12 months the journal has put a lot of effort into damaging some of the breed societies unless the society agrees 100 per cent with icbf...case in point last year when journal lead with the bulls that bred no calves quoting icbf and also the false data that breeders were supplying icbf...but journal and icbf omitted to mention the breeders caught were in the maternal scheme managed by icbf.

Bellview

Given all the noise in dairy side on incorrect ebi due to software..are the beef stars at risk of same down grade. Would be good to hear from icbf before our herds are classed 3 stars all round

TITANIUM.

Bellview wrote: »

Given all the noise in dairy side on incorrect ebi due to software..are the beef stars at risk of same down grade. Would be good to hear from icbf before our herds are classed 3 stars all round

To late for me. Everything has plummeted here. Even cows previously genotyped as 4 and 5 stars are now gone to 2 and 3 stars. I've given up worries about or paying any attention to the this particular cluster fcuk and rue the day I signed up.

farmer2018

Can someone tell me if a bull that is not genomically drop as much as 2 stars when they get tested? (I know they can increase or decrease in the eurostar figures)

Hard Knocks

farmer2018 wrote: »

Can someone tell me if a bull that is not genomically drop as much as 2 stars when they get tested? (I know they can increase or decrease in the eurostar figures)

Sadly yes
Sold a bull last April who was 5⭐️In Jan proof, 4⭐️In March and back to 5⭐️From July
The stars are frustrating, least the BDGP is finished next year

tanko

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Sadly yes
Sold a bull last April who was 5⭐️In Jan proof, 4⭐️In March and back to 5⭐️From July
The stars are frustrating, least the BDGP is finished next year

I'd imagine the BDGP will become a permanent fixture, the question will be whether or not it's worth staying in it.