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Log cabins & legality? 5k to buy, 850 pm rent.

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124

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    #92
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    riclad wrote: »
    You can call it a shed, cabin etc the point is a building at the rear of a house is exempt from planning permission if theres 25sq metres left of empty garden
    space, I don,t know if this includes garden space at the side of the house.
    IF its used not just as a shed,storage unit i presume it should comply with
    fire safety rules re exits ,windows . new floor space must be less 40sq metres

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/planning_permission/planning_perm_altering_a_house.html
    some people seem to think any building thats not a shed must get planning permission

    You just can't live in it or sleep in it. It's a shed, an outbuilding, ancillary space.

    So, going back to the subject of the thread. NO, you can't stick a hut/cabin/shed in your garden for someone to live in.

    Hiding it/disguising it/calling it something else, doesn't change that.


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    #93
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Graham wrote: »
    Sounds bizarrely logical.

    Different semantics but same conclusion, you can't just build usable accommodation in your back garden. Well actually, I guess you can as long as you don't actually use it.

    My point was solely about 'use' and assumed the building itself was legal.


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    #94
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,073 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Deleted User wrote: »
    People keep mentioning "habitable" but as far as I have been able to find out, this concept is not in the actual planning legislation.

    Unofficial Consolidation of the Planning & Development Regulations 2001-2013 (pdf, 3,098kb)
    Exempted Development — General
    Description of Development: CLASS 3. The construction, erection or placing within the curtilage of a house of any tent, awning, shade or other object, greenhouse, garage, store, shed or other similar structure.

    Conditions and Limitations
    ...6. The structure shall not be used for human habitation or for the keeping of pigs, poultry, pigeons, ponies or horses, or for any other purpose other than a purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the house as such.

    That wording possibly originates from S.I. No. 176/1967 - Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963, (Exempted Development) Regulations, 1967.

    The use is a condition of the exemption, so if you use it for habitation it becomes non-exempted and you're in the poo.


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    #95
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,073 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    So how is it enforced?

    Section 160, Planning and Development Act, 2000
    where appropriate, the Court may order the carrying out of any works, including the restoration, reconstruction, removal, demolition or alteration of any structure or other feature.

    Example:

    (Indo) Judge orders demolition of young family's wooden chalet home 'built in gross breach of planning laws'
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/judge-orders-demolition-of-young-familys-wooden-chalet-home-built-in-gross-breach-of-planning-laws-31150441.html
    or
    (IT) Judge orders demolition of unauthorised Co Wicklow home
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/judge-orders-demolition-of-unauthorised-co-wicklow-home-1.2179552


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    #96
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    riclad wrote: »
    You can call it a shed, cabin etc the point is a building at the rear of a house is exempt from planning permission if theres 25sq metres left of empty garden
    space, I don,t know if this includes garden space at the side of the house.
    IF its used not just as a shed,storage unit i presume it should comply with
    fire safety rules re exits ,windows . new floor space must be less 40sq metres

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/planning_permission/planning_perm_altering_a_house.html
    some people seem to think any building thats not a shed must get planning permission

    Still a bit mixed up.
    Fire safety regs still don't apply as a shed is still exempt from building regulations.
    If it's not connected to the house, it's a shed.

    If it's not a shed what is it?
    Garden room/study/home office = all the same thing, basically a garden shed and comes under the same exempted limits as a shed would.


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    #97
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,073 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    kceire wrote: »
    Still a bit mixed up.
    Fire safety regs still don't apply as a shed is still exempt from building regulations.
    If it's not connected to the house, it's a shed.

    If it's not a shed what is it?
    Garden room/study/home office = all the same thing, basically a garden shed and comes under the same exempted limits as a shed would.

    Here's some more legislation.

    S.I. No. 497/1997 - Building Regulations, 1997.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/497/made/en/print
    CLASS 2
    Description of Development: A single storey building (not being a Building described in Class 1 [garage]) ancillary to a dwelling (such as a summer house, poultry-house aviary, conservatory, coal shed, garden tool shed or bicycle shed).

    Conditions and Limitations: ... 4. The building shall be used exclusively for recreational or storage purposes or the keeping of plants, birds or animals for domestic purposes and shall not be used for the purposes of any trade or business or for human habitation.

    So similar to planning, as soon as it's used for habitation it becomes non-exempted and building regs apply.

    I've never really understood how home offices fit into all this, particularly for the self-employed for whom it may be the principal place of work.


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    #98
    arctictree
    Registered Users Posts: 4,321 ✭✭✭arctictree


    Lumen wrote: »
    So how is it enforced?

    Section 160, Planning and Development Act, 2000



    Example:

    (Indo) Judge orders demolition of young family's wooden chalet home 'built in gross breach of planning laws'
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/judge-orders-demolition-of-young-familys-wooden-chalet-home-built-in-gross-breach-of-planning-laws-31150441.html
    or
    (IT) Judge orders demolition of unauthorised Co Wicklow home
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/judge-orders-demolition-of-unauthorised-co-wicklow-home-1.2179552

    In fairness, these examples are of people who built a log cabin with the express purpose of using it as a main family home without planning.

    I'd say there are thousands of people in the country who have some sort of cabin in their garden that they occasionally sleep in.


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    #99
    riclad
    Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    IF you use a cabin as an office,from 9-6pm but do not sleep in it,
    does that mean its exempt from building regulations .


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    #100
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    riclad wrote: »
    IF you use a cabin as an office,from 9-6pm but do not sleep in it,
    does that mean its exempt from building regulations .
    Yes but it would be classed as a workplace and would have to fulfill fire safety and other HSA regulations


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    #101
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,073 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    riclad wrote: »
    IF you use a cabin as an office, from 9-6pm but do not sleep in it, does that mean its exempt from building regulations
    I can't find a legal reference, but the spirit of the law seems to be that you're not endangering or inconveniencing other people. That would happen if you employ other people to work in the cabin or have clients visiting (i.e. in circumstances where you would usually need employers or public liability insurance).


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    #102
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    riclad wrote: »
    IF you use a cabin as an office,from 9-6pm but do not sleep in it,
    does that mean its exempt from building regulations .

    Depends.
    Will you have members of the public visiting you and will you have staff or is it just you doing some paperwork, art, drawing etc?


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    #103
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    riclad wrote: »
    IF you use a cabin as an office,from 9-6pm but do not sleep in it,
    does that mean its exempt from building regulations .
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Yes but it would be classed as a workplace and would have to fulfill fire safety and other HSA regulations

    Does that not only apply if it's an office in terms of having people visit for business purposes, as opposed to a home office, that you may use to watch TV, play games, etc, outside of your working hours.


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    #104
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Does that not only apply if it's an office in terms of having people visit for business purposes, as opposed to a home office, that you may use to watch TV, play games, etc, outside of your working hours.

    If you are the only occupant then you can do your own thing but if anyone else or members of the public are to be visiting or working there then you must comply with workplace regulations


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    #105
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    For planning purposes the RIAI issued guidance to members working from home:
    There have been no direct references to An Bord Pleanala on this issue yet. However, matters relating to primary and ancillary use have been previously considered by the courts and by An Bord Pleanala and ancillary use is recognised as not, per se, leading to a material change of use.

    The same advice does not apply to situations where separate structures are converted for the use or where members of the public or of design teams attend at the premises for meetings. In such cases the Planning Authority may have a reasonable basis to establish development by way of works, material change of use, or material change of use by way of intensification of use. In that case, cessation, permission for retention, or argument on a case basis should be considered.


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    #106
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Lumen wrote: »
    The use is a condition of the exemption, so if you use it for habitation it becomes non-exempted and you're in the poo.


    Exactly!

    The issue is not whether it is 'habitable' but whether it is actually used for habitation.


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    #107
    westcoast66
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭westcoast66


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Exactly!

    The issue is not whether it is 'habitable' but whether it is actually used for habitation.

    If you fall asleep on the couch you are breaking the law!


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    #108
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,064 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    I've seen plenty of granny flats, mews houses, guest house etc get permission in Dublin. It all depends on the size of the property. It's easier to get permission for a separate dwelling on large properties.


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    #109
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I've seen plenty of granny flats, mews houses, guest house etc get permission in Dublin. It all depends on the size of the property. It's easier to get permission for a separate dwelling on large properties.

    Totally different area of planning you are talking about.
    You are mixing up infill housing with log cabins and granny flats etc


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    #110
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    kceire wrote: »
    Totally different area of planning you are talking about.
    You are mixing up infill housing with log cabins and granny flats etc

    Out of interest do you know of many (any) examples of a log cabin or similar structure being granted permission as granny flats/additional accommodation?


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    #111
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,064 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Graham wrote:
    Out of interest do you know of many (any) examples of a log cabin or similar structure being granted permission as granny flats/additional accommodation?


    I've seen dozens logs cabins, some huge with people living in them. Some are a hell of a lot better than some rental property I've seen but I've never seen one with planning for living


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    #112
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I've seen dozens logs cabins, some huge with people living in them.

    Me too
    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I've seen but I've never seen one with planning for living

    Me either, curious to know if planning has ever been granted for such use.


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    #113
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    What about "tiny houses"? The idea is that they're built to a higher standard but are also mobile.
    I think.


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    #114
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,073 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    What about "tiny houses"? The idea is that they're built to a higher standard but are also mobile.
    I think.

    There's a Class 8 planning exemption for "The keeping or storing of a caravan, campervan or boat within the curtilage of a house" but "No caravan, campervan or boat shall be so kept or stored for more than 9 months in any year or occupied as a dwelling while so kept or stored."


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    #115
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Lumen wrote: »
    InTheTrees wrote: »
    What about "tiny houses"? The idea is that they're built to a higher standard but are also mobile.
    I think.

    There's a Class 8 planning exemption for "The keeping or storing of a caravan, campervan or boat within the curtilage of a house" but "No caravan, campervan or boat shall be so kept or stored for more than 9 months in any year or occupied as a dwelling while so kept or stored."

    I know it's really any spot a human may decide to sleep on a semi permanent basis isn't it? If you wanted to live in a tent it would need planning permission.


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    #116
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Graham wrote: »
    Out of interest do you know of many (any) examples of a log cabin or similar structure being granted permission as granny flats/additional accommodation?

    Nope, not 1 example has been granted permission for habitation.


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    #117
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,073 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    I know it's really any spot a human may decide to sleep on a semi permanent basis isn't it? If you wanted to live in a tent it would need planning permission.
    Class 1 rural exempted development says you're grand in a tent for up to 10 days provided that you're at least 100m from the next tent, you're more than 50m from a public road or are behind a wall, bank or hedge of at least 1.5m. :pac:


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    #118
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Lumen wrote: »
    Class 1 rural exempted development says you're grand in a tent for up to 10 days provided that you're at least 100m from the next tent, you're more than 50m from a public road or are behind a wall, bank or hedge of at least 1.5m. :pac:

    Flask must also contain tea heated to 65 degrees and tin box containing no less than 4 rich tea biscuits.

    If you add butter to the biscuits, you need planning.


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    #119
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    kceire wrote: »
    Lumen wrote: »
    Class 1 rural exempted development says you're grand in a tent for up to 10 days provided that you're at least 100m from the next tent, you're more than 50m from a public road or are behind a wall, bank or hedge of at least 1.5m. :pac:

    Flask must also contain tea heated to 65 degrees and tin box containing no less than 4 rich tea biscuits.

    If you add butter to the biscuits, you need planning.

    Also its fine to live in the tent for up to ten(?) days but don't expect to take a crap in that time because it'll need to be in a gvmt approved bag and buried 17m below the water table.


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    #120
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    If it's such an imposition as you mention, it's likely the neighbours will make a complaint to the planning enforcement who can force the owner to get rid of it.


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    #121
    Avatar123
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭Avatar123


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    If it's such an imposition as you mention, it's likely the neighbours will make a complaint to the planning enforcement who can force the owner to get rid of it.

    True that!


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