The Garda Strike

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I'm off on Friday, gonna barricade the door and stock up on spam in anticipation of the purge type scenario.

PowerToWait

Muahahaha wrote: »

The thing I find ironic about this and the teachers strike is that the unions are claiming they are fighting for equal pay for newer entrants. A noble gesture you might say but these were the same unions who had a choice in how cutbacks during the economic crash were to be handled. They made a decision to allow new entrants get paid some 15-20% less so as to protect current members from the worst of the cuts. In short, it was the unions who created the inequality by throwing young people under the bus so other members could benefit. But now they are a bastion of equality all of a sudden whereas a few years back they had no problems sacrificing new entrants. The hypocrisy of the unions is pretty astonishing IMO

As far as I understand it the teachers were prevented by law from protesting or challenging the reduced pay for new entrants, at that time. One of the union heads explained it, several times, last week.

This government is a right wing tyranny. They're getting a bit of a land here with the Gardai.

More insufferable rhetoric from that 18 karat fūckwit Paschal Donohue earlier.

The nurses are getting on board as well. That's 3 vital services people can't do without but the government don't want to pay for.

To the barricades!

mynamejeff

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

No, I have no problems with workers standing up for themselves once their demands are reasonable. The guards have been given a good offer and have rejected it.

There is nothing Thatcherite about wanting public sector workers to have demands that are in line with what is afordable for the country. The marginal tax rate still exceeds 50% and our public services are bad value.

Why should we pay more for the same ****ty service?

a good offer ? lost up to 25 percent to pay cuts and new tax, asked for 15 percent back was offered 2 ?

there is money enough to pay for 5000 raises for the political elite but not the ones getting thoer hands dirty nurses and gardai ?

the services are poor ecase of foolish under investment in the first place can you not see that?

TallGlass

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

She doesn't have to sack them all. Just the ringleaders. Extract the poison

Extract the poison. What. That would cause me to get extremely angry to be honest, I would be going down the doctor and going on sick leave for a few months. Let alone, the amount it could cost the state with cases of unfair dismissal.

You can't just sack a load of people, there is protocol, you get a warning first etc.. some poxy letter from the CEO isn't going to stop workers striking. But mark my words no one will get sacked, going down that route will cost more money to the state than any pay restoration or rise. I for one woild be marching on the Dail with any group of Garda who get sacked for taking a stand. As that is some serious stone age way of thinking, even considering such action would cause public uproar not matter what your option in the Garda, as it has the potential to set a presence for other employers to just fire staff in bulk as they please.

As a member of the public. I have no problem, with 1. Pay restoration 2. A pay rise 3. Allowing unionisation 4. Allowing them to strike (within reason so we don't have happen what's going to happen on Friday). Of all the people for the government to sit on there hands over these guys are not the ones to do it with.

As for crime rates soaring? You'll get clowns doing a few things, I'll be sticking to the laws with or without Garda telling me to do so. If I was a criminal of any serious magnitude or crime reporter I would be taking a holiday to the UK or staying up north in a hotel, if I was medium I would be staying in the house for the day. Then again these tickos shoot each other when the Garda are on duty and break the law anyway so there will be no change there. I think the vast majority of the Dublin are law abiding with or without the Garda there.

If it's not averted Friday, the justice minister should resign, along with the commissioner and it might even cause the government to collapse.

There's been more than enough time to resolve this and with two days left the government are clearly showing no respect for the Garda along with complete and utter disrespect for state security and it's citizens.

Alf Stewart.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Aren't we already borrowing more per day than we take in to keep the country going?

Seems to me like the Guards and teachers want everything at once and have done no costings as to how it should be paid for.

We're not back in the celtic tiger days when the Government was taking in more money than it knew what to do with.

hawkelady wrote: »

But yet the government saw fit to give the dole bonus back and an extra 5 to the unemployed ... logic ??

And a nice pay rise for themselves also. €5k. (Which they only waived after being shamed into)

While they were locked in negotiations for days, literally days about the merits on giving the pensioners a €5er.

Logic alright.

PowerToWait

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Why should we pay more for the same ****ty service?

What's so bad about it? And you expect the 'service' should improve by punishing the front line providers? You'd like to privatise the guards I'm sure.

An acolyte of O'Brien and an O'Learyite.

oppenheimer1

mynamejeff wrote: »

a good offer ? lost up to 25 percent to pay cuts and new tax, asked for 15 percent back was offered 2 ?

there is money enough to pay for 5000 raises for the political elite but not the ones getting thoer hands dirty nurses and gardai ?

the services are poor ecase of foolish under investment in the first place can you not see that?

Services are poor yet we pay top dollar for them. All the money we spend goes on wages and only a tiny proportion on capital investment - so you tell me how is awarding a pay rise to a teacher nurse or guard going to improve things?

The pay rises for politicians are a complete red herring, and they were awarded under Lansdowne road. Politicians pay is linked to civil service pay.

We all lost money during the recession, some of us even lost our jobs (how many gardai were made redundant?) And we are all slowly working our way back - what makes gardai so special that they get back to 2008 levels while the rest of us pay for it?

oppenheimer1

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The guards have been given a good offer and have rejected it.

What was the good offer?

oppenheimer1

TallGlass wrote: »

Extract the poison. What. That would cause me to get extremely angry to be honest, I would be going down the doctor and going on sick leave for a few months. Let alone, the amount it could cost the state with cases of unfair dismissal.

.

The gardai are different, it's illegal for them to strike and illegal to orchestrate a strike.

I don't think a guard can be in the force whilst also being in prison.

lawlolawl

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Services are poor yet we pay top dollar for them. All the money we spend goes on wages and only a tiny proportion on capital investment - so you tell me how is awarding a pay rise to a teacher nurse or guard going to improve things?

The pay rises for politicians are a complete red herring, and they were awarded under Lansdowne road. Politicians pay is linked to civil service pay.

We all lost money during the recession, some of us even lost our jobs (how many gardai were made redundant?) And we are all slowly working our way back - what makes gardai so special that they get back to 2008 levels while the rest of us pay for it?

Ah right, private sector sour grapes it is.

Your Face

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If something happens while they are on strike, like a big gangland incident, there strike will be blamed. Politically it will be easy if the action gets as unpopular as the Luas strikes

Not really, sacking ringleaders could be seen as an example of government heavy-handedness.
There's a huge difference between this and the Luas strikes, the public know the Gardai are under resourced and not looking for anything undeserved.

The_A

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

If you live in a rural area it's no difference if they strike for a week, you'd never see a Guard anyway.

Couldn't agree more

Skyfarm

Thank god for the garda reserve,hang on...

Fleawuss

There are good arguments for and against the Garda pay claim.

We've arrived at a situation where the people who deal with the dirtiest jobs in this country, nurses and guards, have had enough. They've had enough of the abuse, the over work, the bureaucracy, the frustration of having to put up with a system that has elevated the low life to a Demi God and left them prey to complaints, procedures and bullshyte. There isn't enough money to pay them. There isn't enough money to keep supplying a free lifestyle to the emerging underclass.

We need to hit the reset button politically, socially and economically. There needs to be a sense of reality about the demands placed on workers, the limits of the public purse and the creation yes creation of an underclass in the state.

Little CuChulainn

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

If you live in a rural area it's no difference if they strike for a week, you'd never see a Guard anyway.

You aren't really thinking it through though. If you are in a rural area and wake up to find someone is robbing your house you ring the Gardaí. Sure you know they will take a while to get out to you but you know they will be there eventually, and so does the burglar. Imagine the scenario if you don't have that certainty at all, if nobody does. There's many a burglar been caught in the back arse of nowhere by Gardaí responding to calls. Yes, country folk lose out on the deterrence factor but they still have someone that will come to them when really needed, even if it's from the other side of the county.

jameorahiely

TallGlass wrote: »

Extract the poison. What. That would cause me to get extremely angry to be honest, I would be going down the doctor and going on sick leave for a few months. Let alone, the amount it could cost the state with cases of unfair dismissal.

You can't just sack a load of people, there is protocol, you get a warning first etc.. some poxy letter from the CEO isn't going to stop workers striking. But mark my words no one will get sacked, going down that route will cost more money to the state than any pay restoration or rise. I for one woild be marching on the Dail with any group of Garda who get sacked for taking a stand. As that is some serious stone age way of thinking, even considering such action would cause public uproar not matter what your option in the Garda, as it has the potential to set a presence for other employers to just fire staff in bulk as they please.

As a member of the public. I have no problem, with 1. Pay restoration 2. A pay rise 3. Allowing unionisation 4. Allowing them to strike (within reason so we don't have happen what's going to happen on Friday). Of all the people for the government to sit on there hands over these guys are not the ones to do it with.

As for crime rates soaring? You'll get clowns doing a few things, I'll be sticking to the laws with or without Garda telling me to do so. If I was a criminal of any serious magnitude or crime reporter I would be taking a holiday to the UK or staying up north in a hotel, if I was medium I would be staying in the house for the day. Then again these tickos shoot each other when the Garda are on duty and break the law anyway so there will be no change there. I think the vast majority of the Dublin are law abiding with or without the Garda there.

If it's not averted Friday, the justice minister should resign, along with the commissioner and it might even cause the government to collapse.

There's been more than enough time to resolve this and with two days left the government are clearly showing no respect for the Garda along with complete and utter disrespect for state security and it's citizens.

As a member of the public, currently in the middle of the recruitment process, of course you support this!

hmmm

Your Face wrote: »

the public know the Gardai are under resourced

How will increasing pay provide more resources for the Guards?

The Gardai are not ordinary workers - I heard some journalist on RTE describe them as "staff" this evening. If they don't want to serve in the only police force we have they should leave and let someone else take over - not leave the population at the mercy of criminals.

At least the army still seem to have some discipline about them.

Your Face

hmmm wrote: »

How will increasing pay provide more resources for the Guards?

The Gardai are not ordinary workers - I heard some journalist on RTE describe them as "staff" this evening. If they don't want to serve in the only police force we have they should leave and let someone else take over - not leave the population at the mercy of criminals.

At least the army still seem to have some discipline about them.

What are you on about?

JustTheOne

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Services are poor yet we pay top dollar for them. All the money we spend goes on wages and only a tiny proportion on capital investment - so you tell me how is awarding a pay rise to a teacher nurse or guard going to improve things?

The pay rises for politicians are a complete red herring, and they were awarded under Lansdowne road. Politicians pay is linked to civil service pay.

We all lost money during the recession, some of us even lost our jobs (how many gardai were made redundant?) And we are all slowly working our way back - what makes gardai so special that they get back to 2008 levels while the rest of us pay for it?

Who pays top dollar?

Sure 1/3 of the country don't pay any income tax and we are pretty much average compared to other European countries tax rates.

Muahahaha

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Gardai were excluded from negotiations and the cuts were passed by emergency measures legislation at a time when there was a recruitment freeze. There was no choice to be had.

There is always a choice. The Garda union could have made the choice not to allow new entrants have their pay cut by 20%. And if the Govt didnt listen then go on strike. Which is what they are doing right now so why has the union position on this changed from then to now? Equality of pay was an issue back then so why didnt they fight it then instead of doing so years later.

mynamejeff

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Services are poor yet we pay top dollar for them. All the money we spend goes on wages and only a tiny proportion on capital investment - so you tell me how is awarding a pay rise to a teacher nurse or guard going to improve things?

The pay rises for politicians are a complete red herring, and they were awarded under Lansdowne road. Politicians pay is linked to civil service pay.

We all lost money during the recession, some of us even lost our jobs (how many gardai were made redundant?) And we are all slowly working our way back - what makes gardai so special that they get back to 2008 levels while the rest of us pay for it?

weak legal judiciary scattered and badly resourced outside of dublin wasting millions on waaay over cost buildings choosing to buy expensive and ineffective equipment (unsuitable vehicles a range of faulty handguns defective computers and radios all money better spent on manpower paid at a decent wage to attract the best people.

158 in the dail at 5000 each is nearly 800000 alone and we both know it would be a lot more than that.

yes we all lost during the recession but according to a government that felt it deserved a 5000 pay rise its over.

5 years of recruitment embargo at say 900 new recruits a year is 4500 more police that are now most likely in canada or oz.

you know that gardai pay tax too , so a huge chunk of any pay restoration they get will go back to he tax pot.

mynamejeff

Muahahaha wrote: »

There is always a choice. The Garda union could have made the choice not to allow new entrants have their pay cut by 20%. And if the Govt didnt listen then go on strike. Which is what they are doing right now so why has the union position on this changed from then to now? Equality of pay was an issue back then so why didnt they fight it then instead of doing so years later.

how could they have done that ?

Little CuChulainn

Muahahaha wrote: »

There is always a choice. The Garda union could have made the choice not to allow new entrants have their pay cut by 20%. And if the Govt didnt listen then go on strike. Which is what they are doing right now so why has the union position on this changed from then to now? Equality of pay was an issue back then so why didnt they fight it then instead of doing so years later.

The difference now is that the council of Europe has ruled that not allowing Gardaí access to industrial relations mechanisms is a breach of their human rights.

And you are right to a certain extent. There was a choice. It was a choice between accepting the agreement other unions negotiated or having it implemented anyway.

Muahahaha

mynamejeff wrote: »

how could they have done that ?

Same way they are doing it now, ballot for industrial action

Muahahaha

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The difference now is that the council of Europe has ruled that not allowing Gardaí access to industrial relations mechanisms is a breach of their human rights.

And you are right to a certain extent. There was a choice. It was a choice between accepting the agreement other unions negotiated or having it implemented anyway.

How so? They could have taken the industrial action that theyre taking now back then instead. Fitzgerald and OSullivan can do all the finger wagging they want but at the end of the day if there are no Gardai on the streets then the Govt has a serious problem. The power really does lie here with the Gardai, not the government. Problem is sometimes you have to use that power to get the point across.

Im not disagreeing with their strike, I support the Gardai and teachers getting pay equality. Im just perturbed why the union leaders didnt have this fight back when it was announced or if not that then when the recruitment freeze was lifted in 2014

TheNog

Muahahaha wrote: »

How so? They could have taken the industrial action that theyre taking now back then instead. Fitzgerald and OSullivan can do all the finger wagging they want but at the end of the day if there are no Gardai on the streets then the Govt has a serious problem. The power really does lie here with the Gardai, not the government. Problem is sometimes you have to use that power to get the point across.

Im not disagreeing with their strike, I support the Gardai and teachers getting pay equality. Im just perturbed why the union leaders didnt have this fight back when it was announced or if not that then when the recruitment freeze was lifted in 2014

Maybe this link can partly answer your question. Article on European Court of Appeal decision which was made over 2yrs ago with the last sentence in the article indicating the Irish Government were making progress on the right to collective bargaining and representation for AGS during a reform.

Reforming taking 2 yrs??? Sounds like we need a reform of the reform.

foggy_lad

The Minister and Commissioner and many of the higher up civil servant types in the Gardai are stuck in the past when a Garda was a tool at their disposal and often used by them for personal reasons who when asked to jump immediately replied "How High Sir/Ma'am?"

The letters issued by that auld commissioner is just proof that the government have no respect for the Gardai and less respect for the country they are sworn to serve. Their attitude is that the Gardai will do as they are told if they know what's good for them and if they strike they will never be seen in the same light by the public again!

Yes the public will see that the boys and girls in blue have grown into men and women and they now have balls and the courage to stick it to the minister and the government and the appointed commissioner.

http://www.thejournal.ie/garda-macushla-revolt-3039007-Oct2016/

Little CuChulainn

Muahahaha wrote: »

How so? They could have taken the industrial action that theyre taking now back then instead. Fitzgerald and OSullivan can do all the finger wagging they want but at the end of the day if there are no Gardai on the streets then the Govt has a serious problem. The power really does lie here with the Gardai, not the government. Problem is sometimes you have to use that power to get the point across.

Im not disagreeing with their strike, I support the Gardai and teachers getting pay equality. Im just perturbed why the union leaders didnt have this fight back when it was announced or if not that then when the recruitment freeze was lifted in 2014

You underestimate how big a deal this is for Gardaí. They have none of the rights or protections that unions have had since the early 1900's. That's why the government are now threatening to hold Gardaí liable for any incidents that occur during the strikes. Normal employers can't do that because their employees are protected. Having a legal precedent, even a non binding one, on their side, is a massive deal.

Sierra Oscar

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

She doesn't have to sack them all. Just the ringleaders. Extract the poison

A former Commissioner tried that in 1961 when young Gardai revolted over poor pay and conditions as compared to their established colleagues. It backfired spectacularly on the Commissioner.

The Macushla Revolt

myshirt

Pop Quiz

If I was to buy an annuity that guaranteed me the same pension as a middle ranking Garda, it would cost me how much?

jocmilt

tayto lover wrote: »

I say Government Commissioner because that's what she is and not a Garda Commissioner, looking after her buddies instead of her garda force.

That's what the Gardai are. They work for the Government not the people. They defend the State and it's 'Laws', not individuals.

jocmilt

Fleawuss wrote: »

We've arrived at a situation where the people who deal with the dirtiest jobs in this country, nurses and guards, have had enough

Those aren't the 'dirtiest jobs in the country'. Cleaning down the slaughter house from midnight to 6 in the morning is a pretty dirty job. Nurses, gards and teachers have cushy, over-paid jobs with good pensions. The nurses are alright though. The gards and teachers are employed brainwashing and conditioning children into adults they can hunt. Go private and sack the lot of them. If they worked for us instead of 'the department' or the government they would be a lot different. And so would we

Little CuChulainn

myshirt wrote: »

Pop Quiz

If I was to buy an annuity that guaranteed me the same pension as a middle ranking Garda, it would cost me how much?

30 years of shiftwork in a very difficult job and a reduced lifespan.

Inspector Coptoor

myshirt wrote: »

Pop Quiz

If I was to buy an annuity that guaranteed me the same pension as a middle ranking Garda, it would cost me how much?

That would depend on how long that Garda lives for after retirement.

You realize the old age pension is subsumed into that pension?

It's not as expensive as the "1 million dollars" scenario Eddie Hobbs et al are spouting, that's for sure.

tayto lover

jocmilt wrote: »

Those aren't the 'dirtiest jobs in the country'. Cleaning down the slaughter house from midnight to 6 in the morning is a pretty dirty job. Nurses, gards and teachers have cushy, over-paid jobs with good pensions. The nurses are alright though. The gards and teachers are employed brainwashing and conditioning children into adults they can hunt. Go private and sack the lot of them. If they worked for us instead of 'the department' or the government they would be a lot different. And so would we

That doesn't make any sense to me.
How would you go about doing that?

endacl

myshirt wrote: »

Pop Quiz

If I was to buy an annuity that guaranteed me the same pension as a middle ranking Garda, it would cost me how much?

If it's that good a deal, they're looking for recruits...?

Dyr

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You underestimate how big a deal this is for Gardaí. They have none of the rights or protections that unions have had since the early 1900's. That's why the government are now threatening to hold Gardaí liable for any incidents that occur during the strikes. Normal employers can't do that because their employees are protected. Having a legal precedent, even a non binding one, on their side, is a massive deal.

The gardai have enjoyed the benefits of a level of patronage by the government that no unionised work force ever had. Now they want it both ways.

Inspector Coptoor

jocmilt wrote: »

Those aren't the 'dirtiest jobs in the country'. Cleaning down the slaughter house from midnight to 6 in the morning is a pretty dirty job. Nurses, gards and teachers have cushy, over-paid jobs with good pensions. The nurses are alright though. The gards and teachers are employed brainwashing and conditioning children into adults they can hunt. Go private and sack the lot of them. If they worked for us instead of 'the department' or the government they would be a lot different. And so would we

So much garbage in one post.

Brainwashing?
Cushy?
You realize the whole pension thing has changed? That it's now based on career average earnings - 30 years for Gardai and 40 years for teachers as opposed to Average of the final 3 years earnings.
A 7.5% pension levy/tax is being imposed. public sector workers pay pension, as well Sp and Children's pension AS WELL.
The guts of 15% of gross goes under the term "pension" either directly or indirectly, and, on top of that, they will never get the former "old age pension".

Yor post is one of the worst I have EVER read.

cml387

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

So much garbage in one post.

Brainwashing?
Cushy?
You realize the whole pension thing has changed? That it's now based on career average earnings - 30 years for Gardai and 40 years for teachers as opposed to Average of the final 3 years earnings.
A 7.5% pension levy/tax is being imposed. public sector workers pay pension, as well Sp and Children's pension AS WELL.
The guts of 15% of gross goes under the term "pension" either directly or indirectly, and, on top of that, they will never get the former "old age pension".

Yor post is one of the worst I have EVER read.

Public sector pensions are guaranteed by the government.
As opposed to the private pension schemes us private sector workers have which depend on the markets and mostly have tanked in the last few years.

Donal55

I hope the Gardai get their payrise.
It might put some pressure on the other PS unions.

Inspector Coptoor

cml387 wrote: »

Public sector pensions are guaranteed by the government.
As opposed to the private pension schemes us private sector workers have which depend on the markets and mostly have tanked in the last few years.

Fully aware of that.
I'm trying to make you and others fully aware of the "gold-plated" pensions new entrants to the public sector are in line to receive.
They may be guaranteed but they will be ****e.
I work a public sector job and paid into the public sector pension for around 5 years.
I am now privately paid and have a private pension.
As I am out of the public payroll for more than 6 months, if I go back to being paid by public funds I will move on to the new, $H1tE pension so I'm taking the risk with my defined contribution private pension and a few bits of investing.

Stop listening to the media spin of how good the pensions are.
My own father worked for the state for 32 years. Got a lump sum of €75k and has a pension of €30k. He's now retired 7 years. When he turns 66 he won't get any more of a pension.

hmmm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

My own father worked for the state for 32 years. Got a lump sum of €75k and has a pension of €30k. He's now retired 7 years. When he turns 66 he won't get any more of a pension.

At an annuity rate of 3.5%, to get that pension would require you to save about a million. I'm not saying anyone can live hugely well off on 30k a year, but I think people will be shocked when they find out just how little they are going to get with their private DC pensions - you can't beat a government guaranteed DB pension.

boring_man

interesting how much support there is for the guards , i guess the recent scandals - corruption stories dont bother most people

tayto lover

hmmm wrote: »

At an annuity rate of 3.5%, to get that pension would require you to save about a million.

So what??
That's what they were offered. Did you expect them to refuse it?

Inspector Coptoor

hmmm wrote: »

At an annuity rate of 3.5%, to get that pension would require you to save about a million.

Based on what life expectancy?

My father very nearly died in February due to a medical complication.
He would have been retired 6 years and 5 months at that stage and it would have cost no where near €1M.

You forget also that he has to pay income tax at 20%, PRSI and USC on the pension itself as it is a source of income.

These broad sweeping statements are tiresome

hmmm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

These broad sweeping statements are tiresome

What broad sweeping statements? I gave you the figures, the figures show your fathers pension would cost approx a million to purchase.

tayto lover

boring_man wrote: »

interesting how much support there is for the guards , i guess the recent scandals - corruption stories dont bother most people

The Bankers finished me. That and the fact that I had to pay for their corruption. NAMA then and developers, councillors etc.
Name me somewhere or some profession where there's none?

Inspector Coptoor

hmmm wrote: »

What broad sweeping statements? I gave you the figures, the figures show your fathers pension would cost approx a million to purchase.

Time frame for that pension?
Public sector pensions being paid out stop upon death.
What would happen to the €1M had my father died a year after retirement?

Most teachers who work for 40 years, retire at 65, don't see 70.

Can you accept the point that a LOT of public servants who are unlucky enough to die soon after retirement pay more into their pensions than they will ever get out of it?

hmmm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Time frame for that pension?
Public sector pensions being paid out stop upon death.
What would happen to the €1M had my father died a year after retirement?

Please go read up on how pensions work.

Most teachers who work for 40 years, retire at 65, don't see 70

I wasn't aware most teachers die before 70. Do you have any facts to back up this outlandish claim?

dresden8

What's the legality in ordering a Garda to come in on his legally/administeratively mandated rest day?

If a garda is denied his rest day for no good reason how does that work out? If a garda is owed a rest day how can the commissioner order him in on the basis that another garda may possibly break the law that she is not prepared to enforce?

Interesting times.