Leaking slatted tank

farmerjj

Time this thread needs to be closed.

Willfarman

Mooooo wrote: »

Hydrogen sulfide is heavier than air is it not.? Lads it's up to yer selves but everything is always grand till someone is killed. Don't want to be bringing individual cases into it bit wasn't the spence family tragedy a case of going into a near empty tank to get a dog?
If ye are still insistent on going in at least get one of those monitors that can detect the hydrogen sulfide.

Where can a man purchase one of these?

Count Mondego

Willfarman wrote: »

Where can a man purchase one of these?

http://www.firesafetycork.ie/products/smoke-alarms-and-gas-detectors/slurry-gas-detectors-hydrogen-sulphide-h2s-2/

For 160 quid it's something we should all have.

greysides

farmerjj wrote: »

Time this thread needs to be closed.

No.

But perhaps we could leave the well-debated safety issue to one side and continue with other aspects of the discussion..... please.

Lady Haywire

Perhaps it's time to think outside the box, would spraying the ground with a colouring all around the shed show up on the inside of the tank if it's seeping in.
A high grade food colouring or similar.

whelan2

How do those alarms work. By the time they go off is it too late?

pedigree 6

whelan2 wrote: »

How do those alarms work. By the time they go off is it too late?

They are usually worn at hip height on your belt.
Everyone now knows that slurry gas is heavier than air.
So when the alarm goes off, get out of the shed or away from the tank.
The gas displaces the oxygen, no oxygen, can't breathe, smother.
It gives you time before the gas reaches your head.

Who2

Lady Haywire wrote: »

Perhaps it's time to think outside the box, would spraying the ground with a colouring all around the shed show up on the inside of the tank if it's seeping in.
A high grade food colouring or similar.

i dont think it would work, the ground would act like a filter anyways and it would nearly want to be illuminous to be highlighted within a tank.

GY A1

No
These dangerous gases sink down low and are still there in empty tanks.
When are people going to learn this stuff is deadly serious.

Willfarman wrote: »

I believe his post was an attempt at comic satire.. And I do partially see his point. Fatalities seem to usually occur during agitation. When the crust is broken and the most of the gases are released. But the question is do the gases disipate out of an empty tank? Anaecdotal evidence here would indicate that they do.

GY A1

If you have leak in your tank yes it can be sealed properly.
But also there must be a build up of water outside the tank that is leaking in.
Can you also install a land drain away from the tank to drain away all this excess water ?

Farmerjohn1234 wrote: »

Hi lad my tank is filling up wit watet when there is no animals in as of yet dose anyone no how to check for crack in the wall with out having to go in as that would not be such a good idea our is going in the only way of checking tank for leaks.

Willfarman

GY A1 wrote: »

No
These dangerous gases sink down low and are still there in empty tanks.
When are people going to learn this stuff is deadly serious.

Put the alarm on a pole and put down the tank first.. Due to economics and practicalities farmers have to improvise every day of the week,,, some professionals shot cattle that couldn't be captured earlier this year.

The waffle about professions and so on reminds me of a painter decorator working in a house locally. A neighbour chatting to him outside as he had a fag enquired about getting some work done. Yes says he I'll be on to to you next now while the equipment is in the area..

Monday morning he rode in on his push bike with his paintbrush in a carrier bag.

GY A1

It's no waffle when it's your life on the line.
You will only smell the sulphur from slurry / sewer once and then it's over.
That's when it's serious when u don't smell it cause the sulphur burns the sensors in ur nose.
And next thing your out flat.

It's not a joking matter or something to be taken willy nilly either.
Slurry sewers and and any confined space or underground place is serious.

Willfarman wrote: »

Put the alarm on a pole and put down the tank first.. Due to economics and practicalities farmers have to improvise every day of the week,,, some professionals shot cattle that couldn't be captured earlier this year.

The waffle about professions and so on reminds me of a painter decorator working in a house locally. A neighbour chatting to him outside as he had a fag enquired about getting some work done. Yes says he I'll be on to to you next now while the equipment is in the area..

Monday morning he rode in on his push bike with his paintbrush in a carrier bag.

Willfarman

GY A1 wrote: »

It's no waffle when it's your life on the line.
You will only smell the sulphur from slurry / sewer once and then it's over.
That's when it's serious when u don't smell it cause the sulphur burns the sensors in ur nose.
And next thing your out flat.

It's not a joking matter or something to be taken willy nilly either.
Slurry sewers and and any confined space or underground place is serious.

Machinery is a serious risk . Livestock are a serious risk . Firearms sprays pesticides chemicals It's all part of the job and well worn territory here. Practical workable solutions have to be used every day on farms worldwide.

Now if these gas testers work. Then put the tester down the tank first. Not on your hip. The piece of 2 by 1 will survive.

greysides

greysides wrote: »

But perhaps we could leave the well-debated safety issue to one side and continue with other aspects of the discussion..... please.

I don't see us getting any further with the 'going down the tank' debate. As important as it is, both view points have been discussed.
Leave it at that and continue this thread on other aspects of the discussion . Thanks.

99nsr125

I have Hydrogen Sulphide training from the day job
If anyone would like to ask a question feel free to

patsy_mccabe

Putting on my practical hat, this is how I'd do it. Get a safety harness and a rope and have 2 strong fellas waiting to pull you up. Clean out and rinse the tank well in advance without getting in it.
Leave the vacuum tanker pipe in the tank and run it for 10 mins or so before getting in the tank . Leave it running while you are in the tank also. this should suck out any gases that are down there. Still crazy but if it has to be done

Musketeer4

Willfarman wrote: »

Where can a man purchase one of these?

No good if the tank is full of methane.:rolleyes:
Nor if you don't use it properly.

The level of ignorance here is astounding.

A slurry tank would be considered a confined space.

Read this http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Topics/Confined_Spaces/#define

Basically, unless you have confined spaces training and satisfy all the criteria above, you have no business going inside a slurry thank. Of course that's not very practical for the average farmer so that why you need to be getting in a competent specialist who deals in this sort of confined spaces and repair work for a living. As I said, a contractor who works in the wastewater industry would be well able for it.

If you don't, you are breaking the law. So before you do it just have a think about how you are going to explain it to the judge. Well Justice, I just said I'd chance it away to fúck, ya know like!

farmerjj

greysides wrote: »

No.

But perhaps we could leave the well-debated safety issue to one side and continue with other aspects of the discussion..... please.

Doesn't look like anyone's looking at any other way of helping the OP, the health and safety side are on a roll.

J.O. Farmer

Musketeer4 wrote: »

If you don't, you are breaking the law. So before you do it just have a think about how you are going to explain it to the judge. Well Justice, I just said I'd chance it away to fúck, ya know like!

I don't think the HSA regularly go round seeing if people are breaking the law by getting into a confined space on their farms and farmers are not in the habit of ringing them to tell them they are about to break the law.
On a farm health and safety law is irrelevant in terms of prosecution unless there's hired help involved. It's impossible to prosecute a dead man and if he's only seriously injured he's suffered enough. It's only in the case of a serious injury or death that the HSA will find out about it unless they call round just as you lower the ladder into the tank.

Musketeer4

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I don't think the HSA regularly go round seeing if people are breaking the law by getting into a confined space on their farms and farmers are not in the habit of ringing them to tell them they are about to break the law.

They will if a gased corpse is has been fished out of the tank.
Farming is by far the most dangerous occupation. Construction comes a distant second. Every year people are killed and maimed on farms in accidents which, 99% of the time, were preventable with a little forethought.

In every incidence of serious injury or death the person(s) liable should be prosecuted without any excuses.

I personally have experience of specifying work in confined spaces such as sewage pumping station chambres. The same risks apply in a slurry tank which is essentially equivalent to a wet well in a pumping station. The requirements for working in these facilities are rigorous. I personally have notified the HSA of breaches of the regulations by contractors on 3 occasions in the past 4 years.

J.O. Farmer

Musketeer4 wrote: »

They will if a gased corpse is has been fished out of the tank.

Do judges see many gassed corpses up in front of them. Like I said very hard to prosecute a dead man and you can't prosecute his wife for example unless she forced him in.

Mooooo

Musketeer4 wrote: »

They will if a gased corpse is has been fished out of the tank.
Farming is by far the most dangerous occupation. Construction comes a distant second. Every year people are killed and maimed on farms in accidents which, 99% of the time, were preventable with a little forethought.

In every incidence of serious injury or death the person(s) liable should be prosecuted without any excuses.

I personally have experience of specifying work in confined spaces such as sewage pumping station chambres. The same risks apply in a slurry tank which is essentially equivalent to a wet well in a pumping station. The requirements for working in these facilities are rigorous. I personally have notified the HSA of breaches of the regulations by contractors on 3 occasions in the past 4 years.

In every incidence? cow charges a farmer in field or calving pen? You can minimise risk but particularly with livestock it's impossible to remove it completely. Prosecution is the wrong way to go about it esp when in farming it's the farmer is the person who gets injured in the majority of cases.

Musketeer4

Obviously a farm owner/manager can only be prosecuted if it is some other person towards who they had a duty of care gets injured or killed. An employee, contractor or the public.

Mooooo

My point exactly, most cases it's the farmer taking the risk. its the question of what can be done to make this safer. In op's case what are the options. Get in professionals in order to do the job? How much would this cost? If it's affordable well and good but if it's beyond the means of the farmer what is he to do? maybe grant aid should be directed towards reducing cost of work of this kind I dont know. Safety is important but in situations such as this what's the solution, nobody will do it for free or at reduced rates which leads to another issue, the cost of these measures may not be covered by returns of the farm, which is part of the problem.

Lady Haywire

Can ye not give it a rest, we get the point, it's unsafe.
At this rate ye'd nearly drive a person to jump into a tank.

greysides

farmerjj wrote: »

Doesn't look like anyone's looking at any other way of helping the OP, the health and safety side are on a roll.

Lads, I know the H&S side of this thread is paramount. I have no problem with information and explanation. What I don't want is this bouncing back and forth...

'Yes, I will.....'

'No, you shouldn't...'

... without the passing on of info which can help someone reach a decision. It's a fine line but try to walk it.

longgonesilver

99nsr125 wrote: »

I have Hydrogen Sulphide training from the day job
If anyone would like to ask a question feel free to

Thank you for your offer.

Please tell us more about Hydrogen Sulphide.

We know that it is not the only gas we have to worry about.

Base price

I asked OH about the OP's problem and his suggestion was as follows but he also said that it's the wrong time of the year with cattle needing to come in.
Empty the tank and keep it as empty as possible. Remove either all or some of the slats so that you can see the side/back walls. If the leak is coming in on one of the walls you should be able to spot the dampness with the help of a halogen lamp.
As to how you fix the leak - there are several products/methods recommended previously on this thread.

Water John

TMK Hydrogen Sulphide will freeze your nervous system. One inhalation is enough. The notion of being saved by two strong lads on a rope is wishful thinking.
Thus the 'practical' suggestion is totally impractical.

greysides

HYDROGEN SULPHIDE.

Synonyms include dihydrogen sulfide, sulfur hydride, sulfurated hydrogen, hydrosulfuric acid, "sewer gas," "swamp gas," hepatic acid, sour gas, and "stink damp."

Hydrogen sulfide is a colorless, highly flammable and explosive gas produced naturally by decaying organic matter and by certain industrial processes. Hydrogen sulfide has a characteristic rotten-egg odor.

Inhalation is the major route of hydrogen sulfide exposure. The gas is rapidly absorbed by the lungs. However, although its strong odor is readily identified, olfactory fatigue occurs at high concentrations and at continuous low concentrations. For this reason, odor is not a reliable indicator of hydrogen sulfide's presence and may not provide adequate warning of hazardous concentrations. Hydrogen sulfide is slightly heavier than air and may accumulate in enclosed, poorly ventilated, and low-lying areas.

Health Effects

Hydrogen sulfide is a mucous membrane and respiratory tract irritant; pulmonary edema, which may be immediate or delayed, can occur after exposure to high concentrations.
Symptoms of acute exposure include nausea, headaches, delirium, disturbed equilibrium, tremors, convulsions, and skin and eye irritation.
Inhalation of high concentrations of hydrogen sulfide can produce extremely rapid unconsciousness and death. Exposure to the liquified gas can cause frostbite injury.

Acute Exposure

Hydrogen sulfide's can cause inhibition of the cytochrome oxidase enzyme system resulting in lack of oxygen use in the cells. Anaerobic metabolism causes accumulation of lactic acid leading to an acid-base imbalance. The nervous system and cardiac tissues are particularly vulnerable to the disruption of oxidative metabolism and death is often the result of respiratory arrest. Hydrogen sulfide also irritates skin, eyes, mucous membranes, and the respiratory tract. Pulmonary effects may not be apparent for up to 72 hours after exposure.


CNS

CNS injury is immediate and significant after exposure to hydrogen sulfide. At high concentrations, only a few breaths can lead to immediate loss of consciousness, coma, respiratory paralysis, seizures, and death. CNS stimulation may precede CNS depression. Stimulation manifests as excitation, rapid breathing, and headache; depression manifests as impaired gait, dizziness, and coma, possibly progressing to respiratory paralysis and death. In addition, decreased ability to smell hydrogen sulfide occurs at concentrations greater than 100 ppm.

Respiratory

Inhaled hydrogen sulfide initially affects the nose and throat. Low concentrations (50 ppm) can rapidly produce irritation of the nose, throat, and lower respiratory tract. Pulmonary manifestations include cough, shortness of breath, and bronchial or lung hemorrhage. Higher concentrations can provoke bronchitis and cause accumulation of fluid in the lungs, which may be immediate or delayed for up to 72 hours. Lack of oxygen may result in blue skin color.

Children may be more vulnerable to corrosive agents than adults because of the relatively smaller diameter of their airways. Children may also be more vulnerable to gas exposure because of increased minute ventilation per kg and failure to evacuate an area promptly when exposed.

Cardiovascular

High-dose exposures may cause insufficient cardiac output, irregular heartbeat, and conduction abnormalities.

Potential Sequelae

Inflammation of the bronchi can be a late development. Survivors of severe exposure may develop psychological disturbances and permanent damage to the brain and heart. The cornea may be permanently scarred.


Rescuer Protection

Hydrogen sulfide is an extremely rapidly acting, highly toxic gas. Fatalities have occurred to rescuers entering the hot zone.


Full article, which includes a lot more information, here.

Water John

Thanks Greysides. That should put an end to any nonsense of taking a chance.
There is no comeback.

Signpost

Water John wrote: »

There is no comeback.

What if your a buddist? Does that effect it?

Water John

I'd say, that would be your only chance, Signpost.
Big question, what would you return as?

99nsr125

longgonesilver wrote: »

Thank you for your offer.

Please tell us more about Hydrogen Sulphide.

We know that it is not the only gas we have to worry about.

Beaten to it.

One very important thing not mentioned is that not everyone can smell it
I was always doubtful of this but a guy I work with can't

Even if you can smell it initially after a few minutes you won't that's why you need to wear personal monitor like this
https://www.amazon.com/BW-Technologies-GasAlertClip-Portable-Hydrogen/dp/B00APKZWRG

You can absorb it through your skin, eyes, it's corrosive too so your personal monitor or scott air breathing pack need to be rebuilt or replaced periodically.

tanko

I've heard it said that slurry which contains effluent run off from a silage slab and slurry from finishing units where a lot of concentrates are being fed is more likely to give off dangerous gases when agitated in comparison to slurry from say suckler cows.
Is there any truth to this?