How prolific are first cross Belclare?

Farm365

I currently have mainly Scotch and Cheviot ewes and I'm trying to increase the amount of lambs reared per ewe.Last year I scanned 1.47 per ewe. I'd like to get this up to around 1.7. I bought a Lleyn and a BFL last year so it'll be next year before those Hoggets will be lambing. I like the Lleyn but apparently there are some lines of the breed that are not as prolific as others. I don't want to waste 3/4 yrs and then find this out so that's why I was thinking Belclare. How prolific would first cross belclare be off a Scotch or Cheviot ewe? Would they be good ewes?

rangler1

Farm365 wrote: »

I currently have mainly Scotch and Cheviot ewes and I'm trying to increase the amount of lambs reared per ewe.Last year I scanned 1.47 per ewe. I'd like to get this up to around 1.7. I bought a Lleyn and a BFL last year so it'll be next year before those Hoggets will be lambing. I like the Lleyn but apparently there are some lines of the breed that are not as prolific as others. I don't want to waste 3/4 yrs and then find this out so that's why I was thinking Belclare. How prolific would first cross belclare be off a Scotch or Cheviot ewe? Would they be good ewes?

Yea , i thought Lleyns were the ideal breed with the first breeding lines that i used ten years ago, however I got badly disappointed with the last five years replacements.......Like you say it took a few years to realise it and wlll take many years to recover.

razor8

Probably wrong but I assume if your keeping scotch x cheviot sheep you are farming on a hill? Could they cope with the extra lambs

razor8

rangler1 wrote: »

Yea , i thought Lleyns were the ideal breed with the first breeding lines that i used ten years ago, however I got badly disappointed with the last five years replacements.......Like you say it took a few years to realise it and wlll take many years to recover.

How so, just from a prolificacy point or a combination of things?

rangler1

razor8 wrote: »

How so, just from a prolificacy point or a combination of things?

Yea, prolificacy mainly and too many barrens as well.
Their mothers (three quarter texel) have out produced the Lleyns every year since the first Lleyns became hoggets, iykwim, also more barrens in the younger ewes. Masssive difference last year between the 2 and 3 year old Lleyns and 4 ad 5 yearold texels

Farm365

razor8 wrote: »

Probably wrong but I assume if your keeping scotch x cheviot sheep you are farming on a hill? Could they cope with the extra lambs

Fair question. We have access to a hill but we d

Farm365

Farm365 wrote: »

Fair question. We have access to a hill but we d

Fair question we have access to a hill but we don't really use it anymore so I'm trying to change the system hence the legacy of the scotch/cheviot ewes. I'm farming part time so don't have time to be trekking around a mountain.We have good land which would easily support ewes with two lambs. The plan would be to use the scotch/cheviot ewes as the base of the flock crossed with a more maternal/prolific breed

Green farmer

At the start you mentioned a BFL. If you can keep him alive, would the cross with the scotch form the base of right nice ewe lambs ?


Also where to from here rangler ? A different llyen or belclare or something else ?

Farm365

Green farmer wrote: »

At the start you mentioned a BFL. If you can keep him alive, would the cross with the scotch form the base of right nice ewe lambs ?


Also where to from here rangler ? A different llyen or belclare or something else ?

Yeah the mule are nice sheep my only concern is they can be hard fed in the winter. The Lleyn hold condition very well and are not hard to feed.

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

At the start you mentioned a BFL. If you can keep him alive, would the cross with the scotch form the base of right nice ewe lambs ?


Also where to from here rangler ? A different llyen or belclare or something else ?

I bought some nice feminine Texels from Ryan Texels, so that's what next years replacements will be, I needed something with size, another maternal breed would leave my ewes too small, I always found the texels prolific, hopefully these'll do the same

Farm365

rangler1 wrote: »

I bought some nice feminine Texels from Ryan Texels, so that's what next years replacements will be, I needed something with size, another maternal breed would leave my ewes too small, I always found the texels prolific, hopefully these'll do the same

Have you any experience of Belclare? I've heard all the horror stories about triplets but surely the first cross wouldn't be too prolific.

rangler1

Farm365 wrote: »

Have you any experience of Belclare? I've heard all the horror stories about triplets but surely the first cross wouldn't be too prolific.

If the first cross is well minded, they will be prolific, a farmer i know lets out nearly everyone of his 350 ewes with two lambs and rears 140 pets from them as well, his ewe lambs would scan like normal adult sheep at 1.8 with a few quads as well.
All his land is newly reseeded and I believe that is a huge contributor to the big crop, his grass is probably as good as a ration, ewes milk like cows and lambs grow like weeds

orm0nd

Farm365 wrote: »

Have you any experience of Belclare? I've heard all the horror stories about triplets but surely the first cross wouldn't be too prolific.

we lambed a batch of belclare ewe lambs this year, they were off every mix of a dam (lowland) , lambed over 200% , most had doubles, a couple of singles, 2 threes and 1 quod.

they were in lamb to a ch & were super mothers, fantastic mothering ability & loads of milk, we left no more than 2 with any of them,

I know rangler isn't in favour of a ewe lamb having multiples, ..... but we only keep February born lambs for breeding

After lambing they were rotated after the cows in the paddocks, & got no meal , weaned late July and the lambs sold as stores aug/sep. again getting no meal

the mothers have grown into super hoggets & were put to a texel this year.

Farm365

orm0nd wrote: »

we lambed a batch of belclare ewe lambs this year, they were off every mix of a dam (lowland) , lambed over 200% , most had doubles, a couple of singles, 2 threes and 1 quod.

they were in lamb to a ch & were super mothers, fantastic mothering ability & loads of milk, we left no more than 2 with any of them,

I know rangler isn't in favour of a ewe lamb having multiples, ..... but we only keep February born lambs for breeding

After lambing they were rotated after the cows in the paddocks, & got no meal , weaned late July and the lambs sold as stores aug/sep. again getting no meal

the mothers have grown into super hoggets & were put to a texel this year.

That's a great result it sounds like a great system grazing after the cows. Were they all first cross belclare? What weight did you sell the lambs at?

stantheman1979

Farm365 wrote: »

Have you any experience of Belclare? I've heard all the horror stories about triplets but surely the first cross wouldn't be too prolific.

Horror stories!!! Surely the goal is to wean as many lambs as possible. Its 2 mins work to adopt on a triplet lamb onto a ewe with a single. Hey presto 2ewes rearing 4lambs. The majority of our ewes are at least 1/2 belclare some are probably 7/8 or even pure bred. The purer the are the more lambs they have but the 1/2 bred ones scan about 1.75 which is a bit poor I know but very managable for anyone. A lot of people believe the stories of belclares having lots of quads or quintuplets but we scan about 2.1 and might have less than 10 quads out of 850 ewes

orm0nd

Farm365 wrote: »

That's a great result it sounds like a great system grazing after the cows. Were they all first cross belclare? What weight did you sell the lambs at?

yep all first cross,

vast majority weighted about 35/36 kgs and make 80/83 euro

one pen of ewe lambs including a few belclare from ewes weighted 37 kgs and made 90 euro

lightest pen (all whethers) weighted 32kgs and made 78 euro

Farm365

stantheman1979 wrote: »

Horror stories!!! Surely the goal is to wean as many lambs as possible. Its 2 mins work to adopt on a triplet lamb onto a ewe with a single. Hey presto 2ewes rearing 4lambs. The majority of our ewes are at least 1/2 belclare some are probably 7/8 or even pure bred. The purer the are the more lambs they have but the 1/2 bred ones scan about 1.75 which is a bit poor I know but very managable for anyone. A lot of people believe the stories of belclares having lots of quads or quintuplets but we scan about 2.1 and might have less than 10 quads out of 850 ewes

Agree but a lot depends on your set up, quality of land, facilities, indoor or outdoor lambing, full or part time farming etc etc

stantheman1979

Why keep sheep or any stock if you're going to do it half arsed just keeping you're head above water or making a loss. Ewes going around all summer with one lamb is a waste of time, money and grass!

rangler1

stantheman1979 wrote: »

Why keep sheep or any stock if you're going to do it half arsed just keeping you're head above water or making a loss. Ewes going around all summer with one lamb is a waste of time, money and grass!

Depends on your financial commitments I suppose, lambing 2.4 lambs/ewe isn't worth the bother just to pay 51% tax on the profit if you don't need it.......quality of life and all that

stantheman1979

If you're going to pay 51% tax then find a different hobby! It's not the part timers I've an issue with. I know plenty of fellas with good land that let it go to wrack and ruin with over grown hedges and weeds, and a few cattle or sheep that are dying for the sake of a worm dose!! Then they complain they can't make a living from farming!!

Farm365

stantheman1979 wrote: »

Why keep sheep or any stock if you're going to do it half arsed just keeping you're head above water or making a loss. Ewes going around all summer with one lamb is a waste of time, money and grass!

Who said anything about doing it half arsed? All I said was it all depends on your situation and the facilities and land available to you. It might not be possible for everyone to scan 2.1 or be practical but for others it suits their system.

charolais0153

What type of ewe and rams does everyone keep. I get the feeling I'm the only farmer with a fully terminal ewe Suffolk cross and texel x type(with very little"maternal" breeding in the ancestry). We keep Suffolk's x ewes and they get put to texel or charolais depending on type and the texel ewes go to the Suffolk ram. A simple enough system

rangler1

stantheman1979 wrote: »

If you're going to pay 51% tax then find a different hobby! It's not the part timers I've an issue with. I know plenty of fellas with good land that let it go to wrack and ruin with over grown hedges and weeds, and a few cattle or sheep that are dying for the sake of a worm dose!! Then they complain they can't make a living from farming!!

What's wrong with farming sheep for a hobby, you couldn't be at better.
I paid my tax today, and it certainly wouldn't entice you to increase production, we've enough going on at lambing,without a couple hundred triplets in the mix.
I was scanning at 1.8 - 2. and hope to get back there again......but no higher

Username John

rangler1 wrote: »

What's wrong with farming sheep for a hobby, you couldn't be at better.
I paid my tax today, and it certainly wouldn't entice you to increase production, we've enough going on at lambing,without a couple hundred triplets in the mix.
I was scanning at 1.8 - 2. and hope to get back there again......but no higher

Well, I suppose I'm a lad who is sheep farming as half a hobby...

Got my tax update yesterday, getting tax back... I need not concern myself with the 51% tax on sheep farming for another while

Even though I have packed in lambing, for a while anyways - I would tend to agree with Stan to an extent.
The goal is to get as many lambs on the ground as possible. Now, I was lazy and used to sell any pets I had, as I didn't have the time to be messing with em. But even selling a few extra pet lambs at 20euro each covers a lot of expense for that ewe...

However, is there an upper limit? I don't know, number of ewes and available labour come into play. You don't want a load of tiny, half shook, troublesome lambs either... time is money, and is in short supply at lambing time. So it's trying to find the balance of the biggest number of lambs, with the least work I guess...

Username John

charolais0153 wrote: »

What type of ewe and rams does everyone keep. I get the feeling I'm the only farmer with a fully terminal ewe Suffolk cross and texel x type(with very little"maternal" breeding in the ancestry). We keep Suffolk's x ewes and they get put to texel or charolais depending on type and the texel ewes go to the Suffolk ram. A simple enough system

We always had fairly black faced Suffolk ewes here. Good mothers we found, good milk, nice and docile...

But the scan rate wasn't high - could be low, but last year was almost 2, but that was an exceptional year to be fair...

stantheman1979

Im not saying everyone should be scaning 2.4 and have triplets everywhere. We had about 140 triplets from 850 ewes.If the weakest one dies big deal she still has 2. Its handy to have the extra lambs as most of them were adopted on.
We sold about 50 twin lambs from ewe hoggs for 20 euro as we only let them rear one. That 1000euro bought 3tons of meal for ewe hoggs and their lambs which helped to wean them earlier meaning they were in good nick to go back to the ram. So those extra lambs came in very handy sometimes its better to be looking at them than looking for them least you have options.

Username John

stantheman1979 wrote: »

Im not saying everyone should be scaning 2.4 and have triplets everywhere. We had about 140 triplets from 850 ewes.If the weakest one dies big deal she still has 2. Its handy to have the extra lambs as most of them were adopted on.
We sold about 50 twin lambs from ewe hoggs for 20 euro as we only let them rear one. That 1000euro bought 3tons of meal for ewe hoggs and their lambs which helped to wean them earlier meaning they were in good nick to go back to the ram. So those extra lambs came in very handy sometimes its better to be looking at them than looking for them least you have options.

Totally agree...

Interesting you only keep 1 lamb on ewe lambs. I would have thought the same, that a ewe lamb would be doing well to rear one and mind / grow herself as well...

charolais0153

Username John wrote: »

Totally agree...

Interesting you only keep 1 lamb on ewe lambs. I would have thought the same, that a ewe lamb would be doing well to rear one and mind / grow herself as well...

He said ewe hoggetts

Username John

charolais0153 wrote: »

He said ewe hoggetts

I think Stan spent some time in the uk (or maybe he's based in the U.K.?)

Either way - I assumed he meant a ewe lamb, which are sometimes called ewe hoggs over there...

But - I could be all wrong too... and in which case I dunno what I'm rambling on about

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

I think Stan spent some time in the uk (or maybe he's based in the U.K.?)

Either way - I assumed he meant a ewe lamb, which are sometimes called ewe hoggs over there...

But - I could be all wrong too... and in which case I dunno what I'm rambling on about

I always refer to them as ewe lambs too even when they are lambing, but we should becalling them hoggets after the 1st january

charolais0153

Hoggetts in my mind lamb at 24 months . ewe lambs 13 months

stantheman1979

Ive spent some time in Britain but live in the south east. Im refering to ewe lambs yes. Ive always called them ewe hoggets once the ewes start going in lamb so basically from now on. Lambs, ewe hoggs, 2, 3,4 year old. Im probably wrong but thats what i call them anyway

stantheman1979

charolais0153 wrote: »

Hoggetts in my mind lamb at 24 months . ewe lambs 13 months

Apologies i just call then 2 year olds.

Green farmer

When ever I think of hoggets, I think of stuff destined to factory in the spring and how much per kg. anything else breeding wise I think of ewe lambs.

Farm365

stantheman1979 wrote: »

Why keep sheep or any stock if you're going to do it half arsed just keeping you're head above water or making a loss. Ewes going around all summer with one lamb is a waste of time, money and grass!

What kind of profit is possible from a flock of 250 ewes assuming the following:

Stocked at 4 acre
Lowland sheep
Lambing 1st March
Weaning 1.6 lambs per ewe
Replacement rate 20%
Indoor lambing
Sheep housed for 3mths approx
All ewe lambs bred in first year
All silage made on farm by contractors
Concentrates only fed to ewe lambs 6wks before and 6wks after lambing and twin bearing ewes 6wks before lambing.
No debt or rented land
20 % of lambs finished on concentrates
Minimum fencing every year replacing 200 stakes.
Soil PH good lime spread every 3yrs at two tonne acre.
5 acres reseeded every year costing €250 acre
Excluding SFP

razor8

About €14,000 achievable and realistic not including cost of fencing IMO

charolais0153

Farm365 wrote: »

What kind of profit is possible from a flock of 250 ewes assuming the following:

Stocked at 4 acre
Lowland sheep
Lambing 1st March
Weaning 1.6 lambs per ewe
Replacement rate 20%
Indoor lambing
Sheep housed for 3mths approx
All ewe lambs bred in first year
All silage made on farm by contractors
Concentrates only fed to ewe lambs 6wks before and 6wks after lambing and twin bearing ewes 6wks before lambing.
No debt or rented land
20 % of lambs finished on concentrates
Minimum fencing every year replacing 200 stakes.
Soil PH good lime spread every 3yrs at two tonne acre.
5 acres reseeded every year costing €250 acre
Excluding SFP

Why do people lamb 1st march your first lambs will be ready when prices start to tumble. Will you creep any lambs when you say you'll finish 20% of lambs on meal. What breed of sheep would you have. What is occupying the land at present. Are you going to have to build housing for them

Farm365

charolais0153 wrote: »

Why do people lamb 1st march your first lambs will be ready when prices start to tumble. Will you creep any lambs when you say you'll finish 20% of lambs on meal. What breed of sheep would you have. What is occupying the land at present. Are you going to have to build housing for them

I wouldn't have enough grass before 1st March. No creep feeding just finish the last of the lambs on concentrate. Have a mixture of breeds at present 50% scotch and 50% cheviot suffolk cross and a few Lleyns but moving towards Lleyn,Mule or Belclare cross....something maternal and prolific. Have enough housing at present. I've just taken over farm and I have 150 ewes 35 ewe lambs and 10 sucklers.

charolais0153

Farm365 wrote: »

I wouldn't have enough grass before 1st March. No creep feeding just finish the last of the lambs on concentrate. Have a mixture of breeds at present 50% scotch and 50% cheviot suffolk cross and a few Lleyns but moving towards Lleyn,Mule or Belclare cross....something maternal and prolific. Have enough housing at present. I've just taken over farm and I have 150 ewes 35 ewe lambs and 10 sucklers.

What's your plan for the lambs . live or dead trade? You would be weaning at least 1.8 with belclare breeding one would imagine . what rams would you use. I think a belclare x Suffolk ewe could suit like the ones in athenry

Farm365

charolais0153 wrote: »

What's your plan for the lambs . live or dead trade? You would be weaning at least 1.8 with belclare breeding one would imagine . what rams would you use. I think a belclare x Suffolk ewe could suit like the ones in athenry

All lambs at moment are finished for factory and I am under stocked so I would probably do the same and would have capacity to do so. I'm introducing a paddock system next year too which should help.I'm lucky I've very little fencing to do as most fields are laid out already. I wouldn't rule out the store trade either if it's like this years trade earlier in the year.If it meant getting lambs off earlier and having more grass for the ewes and in better condition for the ram I'd consider it. I've been using Charlaois and suffolk rams for the last few years.I find the Charlaois great they 're up and drinking straight away and they weight like led. If I never had another suffolk again it wouldn't bother me. In vigour when born and constant dirty back ends. The ones that live thrive well and are first gone but they have no place on a farm with a part time farmer. I'm going to use the scotch ewes as the base of the flock and breed first cross Lleyn or Belclare off them or mules. I have some suffolk ewes at the moment but they are too hard fed and hard to keep condition on them. They are not prolific and find they have a lot of bottle tits. I'm considering upping stocking rate and buying in all silage but you don't know what kind of quality silage you will be buying

OneMan37

stantheman1979 wrote: »

Horror stories!!! Surely the goal is to wean as many lambs as possible. Its 2 mins work to adopt on a triplet lamb onto a ewe with a single. Hey presto 2ewes rearing 4lambs. The majority of our ewes are at least 1/2 belclare some are probably 7/8 or even pure bred. The purer the are the more lambs they have but the 1/2 bred ones scan about 1.75 which is a bit poor I know but very managable for anyone. A lot of people believe the stories of belclares having lots of quads or quintuplets but we scan about 2.1 and might have less than 10 quads out of 850 ewes

Great results, would a 3/4 or 4/5 Belclare ewe still produce good fat lambs if you crossed them to a Texel ?