If England and Scotland defy the poppy ban...

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They weren't told not to wear them, FIFA just stated they wouldn't make any exceptions.

Can you provide a source for that?

TheCitizen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

is there a tar and feathering on the cards?

Should be ejected from the competition

TheCitizen

godtabh wrote: »

Probably not but dont get offended by things that the TV stations show particularly those things that are inevitable i.e poppies in November.

I'm not offended by it, I am commenting on the spectacle and in particular why it goes on for so long every year.

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Can you provide a source for that?

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/37941626

partyguinness

I believe that it was the FA that proposed the rule to FIFA in the first instance and now they want to defy it. Brilliant.

partyguinness

NIMAN wrote: »

I spent a couple of days in Belfast at the weekend, and decided to have a look around at just how prevalent the wearing of the poppy is, considering how much it's shoved down people's throats and how some people get terrible abuse for making the decision not to wear one.

I would say poppy wearing in Belfast for those 2 days was maybe 2 or 3% of people I passed. I was out on the Friday night socialising, and spent most of Saturday in the main shopping streets and centres, so it's a good straw poll.

It appears the vast majority of the population don't bother themselves too much about them.

I live in England and I would say that the prevalence of Poppy wearers was down this year- just my anecdotal observations. Poppy wearing is pretty non-existent among non-whites.

The danger now for the British Legion is that it may face a back lash as it will get linked/hijacked by Nationalists and UKIP types but I suspect people will just make quiet donations instead.

partyguinness

Korat wrote: »

There's something sinister about the poppy on the armband and it's more noticeable when being worn by someone who's clearly wearing it for fear of being seen not wearing it.

The world is looking more like the 1930s everyday- symbols, armbands what next?

Mass deportations?

Dots1982

Would a compromise be that if a country wants to wear a symbol on their jerseys they apply for it 6 months in advance and FIFA send an email to every football association in the world asking them if they object to it. If one nation objects to it then they are not permitted to wear the symbol. Power of Veto basically.

partyguinness

Well AIDS day is coming up on the 1st December- can teams wear the ribbon?

What about breast cancer awareness?

Hell, what about a St Patrick's Day badge?

Hold on a second, I think Graham Norton was prevented from wearing a ribbon on AIDS day on a few years back on ITV. Interesting.

Fr Tod Umptious

NIMAN wrote: »

I spent a couple of days in Belfast at the weekend, and decided to have a look around at just how prevalent the wearing of the poppy is, considering how much it's shoved down people's throats and how some people get terrible abuse for making the decision not to wear one.

I would say poppy wearing in Belfast for those 2 days was maybe 2 or 3% of people I passed. I was out on the Friday night socialising, and spent most of Saturday in the main shopping streets and centres, so it's a good straw poll.

It appears the vast majority of the population don't bother themselves too much about them.

NI is a bit different though, wearing symbols of any type in that place is different to the norm.
A lot of people don't bother for the sake of "keeping the peace"

I'm sure if you went to the heart of loyalist Belfast you would dee a greater number than you would in the overall population in the city centre on a Saturday afternoon.

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/37941626

That's not what you said earlier.

Link is irrelevant to your earlier point.

England and Scotland went to FIFA and asked for poppies on shirt, FIFA said no, England and Scotland cried and whinged and ratted on Ireland and 1916 on our shirts.

The "poppy" isn't banned from shirts, that's correct. Political messages are banned though, there's a subtle difference.

A FIFA spokesman said: "FIFA fully respects the significance of commemorating Remembrance Day on 11 November each year.

"The Laws of the Game are overseen by the International Football Association Board (composed of the four British FAs and FIFA) and applicable to all 211 member associations.

"The relevant Law 4, para. 4, clearly states that the players equipment should not carry any political, religious or commercial messages.

"The Laws are applied uniformly in the event of similar requests by any member association to commemorate similar historical events."

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

That's not what you said earlier.

Link is irrelevant to your earlier point.

England and Scotland went to FIFA and asked for poppies on shirt, FIFA said no, England and Scotland cried and whinged and ratted on Ireland and 1916 on our shirts.

The "poppy" isn't banned from shirts, that's correct. Political messages are banned though, there's a subtle difference.

A FIFA spokesman said: "FIFA fully respects the significance of commemorating Remembrance Day on 11 November each year.

"The Laws of the Game are overseen by the International Football Association Board (composed of the four British FAs and FIFA) and applicable to all 211 member associations.

"The relevant Law 4, para. 4, clearly states that the players equipment should not carry any political, religious or commercial messages.

"The Laws are applied uniformly in the event of similar requests by any member association to commemorate similar historical events."

That is exactly what I said earlier. FIFA did not tell the FA and SFA they couldn't wear them, only that they would not make any exceptions. It was left up to the two FAs to decide how to interpret that. I don't think they did whinge and rattle, that seems to have down to the various tabloids to do what they do best.

Is the Poppy a political, religious or commercial message? That is now up to the FIFA disciplinary board to decide.

Cookiemunster

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That is exactly what I said earlier. FIFA did not tell the FA and SFA they couldn't wear them, only that they would not make any exceptions. It was left up to the two FAs to decide how to interpret that. I don't think they did whinge and rattle, that seems to have down to the various tabloids to do what they do best.

Is the Poppy a political, religious or commercial message? That is now up to the FIFA disciplinary board to decide.

The FA and the SFA asked for an exception to the rule so they could wear the poppy and FIFA said no. There is no interpretation.

Fratton Fred

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The FA and the SFA asked for an exception to the rule so they could wear the poppy and FIFA said no. There is no interpretation.

in FIFA's own words:

Fifa said that when contacted by the four FAs about wearing poppy symbols, it "reminded them about law four" - which states players are not allowed to wear "political, religious or personal slogans, statements or images".

The sport's governing says it "reiterated" to the FAs that "only the independent disciplinary committee can decide" if the rules have been broken and what sanction should apply.

"The perception that Fifa 'banned' anything is a distortion of the facts," it added.

Fifa's secretary general, Fatma Samoura, told BBC Sport last week: "We have to apply uniformly and across the 211 member associations the laws of the game.

TheCitizen

Anyway looks like the poppyfest is over again for another year and this time next year Fratton Fred et al can defend the indefensible and rehash the same arguments all over again. It was particularly tedious this year though with the EFA and SFA making a bigger deal out of it than normal because a game between them happened to fall on a certain day of the year. The tedious thing was the rest of the football world had to hear about their hissy fit as well. Maybe some day in the future they'll grow up.

Cookiemunster

Hold on. I've just seen pics from Friday and see that they wore the poppies on black armbands rather than on the jerseys. Seeing as this is what they did 5 years ago and FIFA were OK with it, why are we still talking about this?

Fratton Fred

TheCitizen wrote: »

Anyway looks like the poppyfest is over again for another year and this time next year Fratton Fred et al can defend the indefensible and rehash the same arguments all over again. It was particularly tedious this year though with the EFA and SFA making a bigger deal out of it than normal because a game between them happened to fall on a certain day of the year. The tedious thing was the rest of the football world had to hear about their hissy fit as well. Maybe some day in the future they'll grow up.

the only hissy fit seemed to come from a few posters on Boards.ie. quite why an Irish website gets so wound up about an event that has nothing to do with them is beyond me, but hey ho.

The only thing more tedious than Poppy fascists, are the anti poppy fascists who seem to get their knickers in a twist every year.

Fratton Fred

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Hold on. I've just seen pics from Friday and see that they wore the poppies on black armbands rather than on the jerseys. Seeing as this is what they did 5 years ago and FIFA were OK with it, why are we still talking about this?

because the words "Poppy" and "England" were mentioned in the same sentence, it seems to get plenty of people wound up for some bizarre reason.

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the only hissy fit seemed to come from a few posters on Boards.ie. quite why an Irish website gets so wound up about an event that has nothing to do with them is beyond me, but hey ho.

The only thing more tedious than Poppy fascists, are the anti poppy fascists who seem to get their knickers in a twist every year.

Hissy fit and ratting came from the EFA and SFA. But but but look at what Ireland did! Worse than kids.

I get it Fred, fascism good, anti-fascism bad. I love having these conversations with you, once we scratch beneath your surface we find out a lot about you.

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Hissy fit and ratting came from the EFA and SFA. But but but look at what Ireland did! Worse than kids.

I get it Fred, fascism good, anti-fascism bad. I love having these conversations with you, once we scratch beneath your surface we find out a lot about you.

no, fascism bad full stop, whether it be pro poppy or anti poppy.

I don't recall either FA having a hissy fit, they just decided to do what the English FA did five years ago.

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

no, fascism bad full stop, whether it be pro poppy or anti poppy.

I don't recall either FA having a hissy fit, they just decided to do what the English FA did five years ago.

No hissy fit?

They didn't rat on the FAI 5 years ago pal, that was the hissy fit this time round.

Fr Tod Umptious

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the only hissy fit seemed to come from a few posters on Boards.ie. quite why an Irish website gets so wound up about an event that has nothing to do with them is beyond me, but hey ho.

The only thing more tedious than Poppy fascists, are the anti poppy fascists who seem to get their knickers in a twist every year.

Because of the troubles in NI the poppy in Ireland is very much associated with the loyalists/unionist/protestant tradition.

That's just the reality of it, therefore the poppy is a far more devisive symbol here than in the UK.

Added the that the standard Irish dislike for the English soccer team and you have the reaction to the poppy debate that you have here.

bobbysands81

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Because of the troubles in NI the poppy in Ireland is very much associated with the loyalists/unionist/protestant tradition.

That's just the reality of it, therefore the poppy is a far more devisive symbol here than in the UK.

Added the that the standard Irish dislike for the English soccer team and you have the reaction to the poppy debate that you have here.

Given the actions of various British forces throughout this island any sane person should understand why some Irish people would have an issue commemorating those responsible for the deaths of many Irish people.

The jingoistic reaction to James McClean reaching a very logical decision not to wear the poppy has been disappointing but not surprising.

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

No hissy fit?

They didn't rat on the FAI 5 years ago pal, that was the hissy fit this time round.

It wasn't the FA that ratted on the FAI mate, it was an MP that asked FIFA for clarification.

Which, lets face it, is a perfectly natural thing to ask.

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Given the actions of various British forces throughout this island any sane person should understand why some Irish people would have an issue commemorating those responsible for the deaths of many Irish people.

were the Irish being asked to join in then. i thought it was a football match between England and Scotland?

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

were the Irish being asked to join in then. i thought it was a football match between England and Scotland?

Yes, this has been the only match in the last month where people have been told to wear poppies.

Gavlor

bobbysands81 wrote: »

No hissy fit?

They didn't rat on the FAI 5 years ago pal, that was the hissy fit this time round.

The English fa didn't "rat" in the fai. That was a member of parliament, he was bang on in his observation as it happens.

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Yes, this has been the only match in the last month where people have been told to wear poppies.

told, or asked?

a quick look at the photos of our game on Saturday and most of the players were wearing them, including I believe Noel Hunt. Several players weren't though, including our club captain, Michael Doyle, nor was Conor Chaplin a local lad.

Number of ****s given about it?

None.

Dots1982

Dots1982 wrote: »

Would a compromise be that if a country wants to wear a symbol on their jerseys they apply for it 6 months in advance and FIFA send an email to every football association in the world asking them if they object to it. If one nation objects to it then they are not permitted to wear the symbol. Power of Veto basically.

Any interest in this as a solution or we just happy with a bickering contest?

NIMAN

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

NI is a bit different though, wearing symbols of any type in that place is different to the norm.
A lot of people don't bother for the sake of "keeping the peace"

I'm sure if you went to the heart of loyalist Belfast you would dee a greater number than you would in the overall population in the city centre on a Saturday afternoon.

I would disagree.

Belfast of all places loves a good symbol, and if any city in the UK would have a load of people wearing the poppy, I would have bet that Belfast would have been high in the list.

Of course on the Shankill you might see a bigger proportion of people wearing them, but I thought the city centre would have a much higher number.

I think it just highlights just how few people actually wear them. If its not being highlighted in the media then I think it doesn't really interest people too much. Looking at ITV and the BBC you'd think 99% of the population was wearing them, but they aren't.

In fact, once James McCleans poppy debate started again this year, I made a point of watching MOTD and any crowd shots. I noticed there too that only a few poppies were visible on fans clothes....vast majority weren't wearing them.

It just proves that its a mountain being made out of a mole hill every year.

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

told, or asked?

a quick look at the photos of our game on Saturday and most of the players were wearing them, including I believe Noel Hunt. Several players weren't though, including our club captain, Michael Doyle, nor was Conor Chaplin a local lad.

Number of ****s given about it?

None.

At last, a bit of normality, it's taken us years to start to get normal about people refusing to wear the poppy.

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

At last, a bit of normality, it's taken us years to start to get normal about people refusing to wear the poppy.

"Us"?

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

"Us"?

As usual you intentionally miss the main point, always looking to weasel out by focusing on a side issue.

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

As usual you intentionally miss the main point, always looking to weasel out by focusing on a side issue.

jesus, you're a barrel of laughs.

Not had your snickers?

Gavlor

Get a room lads

Korat

I think it's a bad precedent to even allow the poppy on the armband.

There are a lot of people around the world who would have issues with the armed forces that the poppy commemorates, not just those who go out of their way to be offended on the little island of Ireland.

If it wasn't a political symbol before it certainly is now and should be banned in all forms in future.

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

have they defied FIFA?

FIFA need to decide yet if an offence has actually taken place. This will be on the basis of the report from their match official, which will then be reviewed by the disciplinary committee.

Hello darkness my old friend...

http://m.bbc.com/sport/football/37972265

"England & Scotland poppy decision leads to Fifa disciplinary action"

citytillidie

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Hello darkness my old friend...

http://m.bbc.com/sport/football/37972265

"England & Scotland poppy decision leads to Fifa disciplinary action"

FIFA also looking into the pre match stuff

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/38024262

hopefully this will be the end of the poppy in the club game in England only a more recent thing to help with those wars in the middle east

elefant

partyguinness wrote: »

Well AIDS day is coming up on the 1st December- can teams wear the ribbon?

What about breast cancer awareness?

Hell, what about a St Patrick's Day badge?

Hold on a second, I think Graham Norton was prevented from wearing a ribbon on AIDS day on a few years back on ITV. Interesting.

What if every nation that has been invaded/colonised by a foreign power decided to wear a symbol on their jerseys whenever they play England/Spain/Portugal/Whoever to honour those who were killed protecting their homelands. That would be a symbol of freedom I suppose.

Would the FA be okay with that? If the rule is there, the rule is there. They should be punished for explicitly doing what they were told not to. If you don't draw the line very clearly, then to stop any political symbols in the future becomes a farce.

Abortions for some! Miniature Palestinian flags for others!

bobbysands81

bobbysands81 wrote: »

The real debate surrounding the poppy should be why does an underfunded charity have to provide services to men and women who have risked their lives "for their country" yet their country and Government has turned their back on them.

Greatest scam ever.

Beefy78 wrote: »

Stitching a poppy into the two kits and forcing people to participate annoys me.

In part because I then have to read about it on here and get told again about how people in England are forced to wear poppies (they're not) and how it glorifies war (it doesn't).

Good lad.

bobbysands81

Deleted User wrote: »

Greatest scam ever.




Good lad.

That's embarrassing for poor Beefy.

Fratton Fred

elefant wrote: »

They should be punished for explicitly doing what they were told not to

What were they told specifically not to do?

elefant

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What were they told specifically not to do?

Not to wear 'political, religious or personal slogans, statements or images'. Which they clearly have done.

Fratton Fred

elefant wrote: »

Not to wear 'political, religious or personal slogans, statements or images'. Which they clearly have done.

That's isn't really what you were alluding to though is it. FIFA did not tell them specifically not to wear the Poppy on the shirts. They have done previously and the compromise was to wear a black armband with a poppy on it.

It seems reasonable to do the same again, dos it not?

irelandrover

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's isn't really what you were alluding to though is it. FIFA did not tell them specifically not to wear the Poppy on the shirts. They have done previously and the compromise was to wear a black armband with a poppy on it.

It seems reasonable to do the same again, dos it not?

What is the difference between a poppy on the shirt and a poppy on teh black armband.

Fratton Fred

irelandrover wrote: »

What is the difference between a poppy on the shirt and a poppy on teh black armband.

You'll have to ask FIFA, they have been ok with it in the past.

eagle eye

Why the hell do soccer fans care about this stuff? Don't we come here to talk about football? This thread isn't about football at all imo

Fratton Fred

eagle eye wrote: »

Why the hell do soccer fans care about this stuff? Don't we come here to talk about football? This thread isn't about football at all imo

oddly enough, there is a massive thread on the rugby forum about England wearing a Poppy against South Africa.

oh, no there isn't.

NIMAN

What about military displays before kickoffs?
Like soldiers parachuting in? Thats happened in the past iirc.

Also, wreaths were laid on the pitch before the England v Scotland game and the NI game too that same night.

Were these banned too?

Fratton Fred

NIMAN wrote: »

What about military displays before kickoffs?
Like soldiers parachuting in? Thats happened in the past iirc.

Also, wreaths were laid on the pitch before the England v Scotland game and the NI game too that same night.

Were these banned too?

Apparently the playing of national anthems and the waving of flags is rife as well.

I've even heard that some teams discriminate against foreigners :eek: