Would A Leaf work for me?

Ded_Zebra

Hi All,

My first post in this sub-forum, electric cars aren't something that especially interested however I have recently noticed how cheap early Nissan Leafs have become.

I'm wondering if it's worth my while changing to a Leaf and then keeping something fun for the weekend

The only concern I have is that I'm not sure the Leaf will be suitable for my commute. I live in Ashford, Wicklow and I commute to Santry, Dublin. I think the trip is 65km each way. I usually leave home at about 6.50 and get to work at about 7.45-7.55. Then I leave for home again at about 4pm. This means I'm not in heavy traffic too much.

At the moment I'm driving a 2004 Alfa Romeo 156 1.9 JTD on this commute. It's pretty much perfect for me to be honest. The only complaint I have is that it's a bit on the noisy side. The great things about it are that the purchase cost was low, repair and maintenance is very cheap (cheap tyre size etc), No matter how I drive it it'll return at least 48mpg (usually over 50) and is good fun to drive even if it is on the slow side with 140bhp.


What I need from a car is something that I can set the climate control to 24 degrees. Drive at speeds up to 140km/h or so when the traffic clears. Listen to the radio. Have lights on etc without worrying about energy consumption. Most importantly I need to be able to do that and still get to work and home again between charges. If I have to be worried about range at all then it won't work for me.

The questions I have I suppose are;

What range could I actually expect from a Leaf on this commute? I know they get 117km range according to the EPA and 175km according to the European NEDC standard. What could you actually expect?

How much money does a full charge actually cost?

Is there any other maintenance costs other than tyres and suspension?

Will a Leaf work for me?

stesaurus

If you can get work to put in a charger then it would suit you, otherwise no. You won't do that trip without an inbetween charge.
Lights, heat etc. won't really impact.
If they put in a charger, even a simple outdoor socket, then you'd have an almost free commute. What kind of saving would that be on fuel?

KCross

I concur with s.welstead.

You need the work charger for that commute to work especially since you will be using alot of motorway. Once you drive at motorway speeds the range drops quickly.

My commute is about 30km each way and its mostly at motorway speed and I get home with 30-35% remaining with no work charging.

So you definitely need a daily charge and you dont want to be doing that on the public network and wasting 20-30mins of your time every day. You need work charging to make it work for you.

Your other question.... public charging is free at present but wont stay that way. Anyones guess what it will cost once they start charging. Make your decision on the basis that you dont need the public chargers (i.e. use home and work charging only).

A home charge using night rate electricity will be about €1.50 per day. You'll need to get a day/night meter which is free to get.

No other maintenance costs. They appear to be fairly reliable at present. Depreciation and reduced battery range over time are the main costs really but since you are buying 2nd hand the depreciation will be largely already gone and the range is holding up well on the 2014+ models.

Ded_Zebra

Thanks for the replies guys.

I was thinking a work charge might be needed. Electric Ireland are in the same building as us and they have a few EV chargers in the underground. I think they are in electric Ireland reserved spots.

Though my commute is on motorway my average speed is typically about 60-70km/h so that should help consumption a bit.

I understand that there will be a new model leaf out next year? or maybe 2018? So I expect the price of the early cars will drop then which would make them a very tempting deal.

What does a full charge cost out of interest?

Is there any periodic maintenance required?

stesaurus

Maintenance schedules should be longer than normal petrol/diesel as less moving parts and fluids. You also barely use the brake pads etc. due to regen breaking. My i3 is every two years or 30,000km for service. Some of the Nissan dealers say every year but that seems to be them trying to push it.
A full charge depends on your electricity rate. Most seem to switch to a night rate and charge then. So check with your provider on your rates and then multiply that by about 20 or so to have a rough calc. It will be somewhere between €1:50-2:50 typically. Public chargepoints are free for the moment but like KCross says we don't know what they will eventually be.

mordeith

Ded_Zebra wrote: »

Drive at speeds up to 140km/h or so when the traffic clears.

Legalities aside, driving at that speed would eat your battery

Leaf inspection is due once a year or 30,000 kms whichever comes first.

How many Kms is your commute ?

You are aware there is a 40 Kwh Renault Zoe available now ? twice the range of the Leaf 24 Kwh. I can't find the price list in my e-mail, maybe someone can post it ?

Anyway the Zoe 40 Kwh should give about 220 kms at reasonable driving speeds, to 280 kms in commuter traffic if you encounter it traffic makes a big difference to increasing range.

In milder weather I can make 135 kms in the 24 Kwh Leaf , though at speeds I rather not drive at , taking main roads up and a lot of back roads home.

KCross

Ded_Zebra wrote: »

My first post in this sub-forum, electric cars aren't something that especially interested however I have recently noticed how cheap early Nissan Leafs have become.

Deleted User wrote: »

You are aware there is a 40 Kwh Renault Zoe available now ? twice the range of the Leaf 24 Kwh. I can't find the price list in my e-mail, maybe someone can post it ?

I dont think the OP is interested in spending on a new car.

Ded_Zebra

Thanks once again for the input everyone, good knowledge and expertise here

I don't really want to tie that much money up in a brand new car, I would much rather just buy an older car outright.

My commute is about 130-140km round trip a day. There are other cars at home I will be able to use if I'm doing other additional trips. I would be planning to use the Leaf for my "core" driving only.

Just a quick note regarding the speed, I put in that information because at the moment I can easily drive at this speed without having to worry about fuel consumption. I will need to be able to use an EV in the same way.

I don't know much about the Renault Zoe, what year did they come out and how much are they selling for? I would have concerns that it would be too small a car and wouldn't be comfortable enough for spending 2+ hours in a day. They are about the size of a Clio?

I remember in the early days Renault were doing this batter leasing gig, is that still the model that are still using or do you own the battery yourself?

If not looking for new, then a 2014+ Leaf is your best bet with your mileage, more efficient heater (in the SV and SVE trim only) and much improved battery over the early leafs.

My average consumption this year over 24,000 kms is 17.9 Kwh/100 kms, I don't drive it too easy, however , this is the average and a motorway blast at 130-140 kph odd can see 22 Kwh/100 kms and 21 usable on a new battery = 95 Kms to empty but you will want to be at your destination by this, so say 85 kms you'd be at low battery most likely.

However the thing is that your commute may not always be at these speeds, and even keeping to 120 Kph makes a difference, the difference between 120 and 140 kph isn't worth it to be honest. I normally leave for work in plenty of time, not because I drive an EV but because I always have done this.

I see where you have some speeds of 60-70 Kph, non of my commute is below 100 Kph and I sometimes blast at between 130-140 Kph and my average over 24,000 is 17.9 for 2016 so far. Though I have 5 days a month where my shift clashes with regular rush hour traffic on the dreaded M7/N7 so if your commute includes some slower roads this will definitely help consumption.

Ok I just saw your commute is 130-140 kms same as mine, I have work charging, if you can get even the permission to use an extension cable then you can use the granny cable. Other than this you'll have to charge at a fast charger for 15-20 mins. Daily.

I did this at Naas, 10 mins is all I needed , but I did reduce my speed but it wasn't that big a deal. I really enjoy driving the Leaf.

Ded_Zebra

Ded_Zebra wrote: »

Just a quick note regarding the speed, I put in that information because at the moment I can easily drive at this speed without having to worry about fuel consumption. I will need to be able to use an EV in the same way.

Well as I said above, the difference between 120-140 isn't a lot and leaving a few minutes earlier is going to make driving less frustrating and tiring.

But you did say some of your commute is 60-70 Kph, this can make all the difference and allow a few 140 Kph blasts.

Ded_Zebra wrote: »

I don't know much about the Renault Zoe, what year did they come out and how much are they selling for? I would have concerns that it would be too small a car and wouldn't be comfortable enough for spending 2+ hours in a day. They are about the size of a Clio?

Zoe was released in 2013, available about 17-19 k ? not 100% sure. It is similar to the Clio in size.

Ded_Zebra wrote: »

I remember in the early days Renault were doing this batter leasing gig, is that still the model that are still using or do you own the battery yourself?

In Ireland you have to lease the battery and it costs the same whether 2 or 3 years old and as far as I have seen the battery isn't as robust as the current 24 Kwh Leaf but because it's leased who cares ? well the thing about that is that the battery has to reach 75% capacity before renault will repair or replace it and this does not guarantee a new battery or 100% capacity either.

A leaf battery if required costs 5,500 installed, at today's price, by the time you might need one it could be half, "could".

By the way regarding the 24 deg heat, with the Leaf SVE it has heated seats and steering, I guarantee you would not want 24 Deg heat with the heated seats !

You really should get a test drive, go to a leaf dealer and ask for a 2 day test drive, don't mention you are considering 2nd hand. They might give you an XE trim Leaf which has no heat pump and uses the resistive heater. It's the only way to get a feel for the car.

Ded_Zebra

Deleted User wrote: »

If not looking for new, then a 2014+ Leaf is your best bet with your mileage, more efficient heater (in the SV and SVE trim only) and much improved battery over the early leafs.

My average consumption this year over 24,000 kms is 17.9 Kwh/100 kms, I don't drive it too easy, however , this is the average and a motorway blast at 130-140 kph odd can see 22 Kwh/100 kms and 21 usable on a new battery = 95 Kms to empty but you will want to be at your destination by this, so say 85 kms you'd be at low battery most likely.

However the thing is that your commute may not always be at these speeds, and even keeping to 120 Kph makes a difference, the difference between 120 and 140 kph isn't worth it to be honest. I normally leave for work in plenty of time, not because I drive an EV but because I always have done this.

I see where you have some speeds of 60-70 Kph, non of my commute is below 100 Kph and I sometimes blast at between 130-140 Kph and my average over 24,000 is 17.9 for 2016 so far. Though I have 5 days a month where my shift clashes with regular rush hour traffic on the dreaded M7/N7 so if your commute includes some slower roads this will definitely help consumption.

Ok I just saw your commute is 130-140 kms same as mine, I have work charging, if you can get even the permission to use an extension cable then you can use the granny cable. Other than this you'll have to charge at a fast charger for 15-20 mins. Daily.

I did this at Naas, 10 mins is all I needed , but I did reduce my speed but it wasn't that big a deal. I really enjoy driving the Leaf.

Really really helpful post

My problem is that I work Flexi time so the sooner I get to work the sooner I can leave again this makes it worth my while to go fast when I can. As I mentioned my average speed probably works out at 60-70km/h. Speed ranges from about 30km/h to up to about 140 in clear sections.

I think I'll need to ask them in work about getting charging stations installed. They might be keen to move towards being more green.

stesaurus

It doesn't even need any kind of expensive charging station solution. A simple outdoor waterproof 3 pin socket will be enough.
Ideally though yes, a nice spanky set of dedicated chargers should be what most companies are encouraged to do.

Ded_Zebra

Great food for thought. Realistically if I am going to be changing it will be next February or March but I think it's the time to think about planning. It will really hinge on getting charging capabilities in work by the sounds of things.

I also like the idea of getting an extended test drive in a Leaf. Just to see how it preforms on the trip. Dealers are fairly obliging to extended tests are they?

Ded_Zebra

Ded_Zebra wrote: »

Really really helpful post

My problem is that I work Flexi time so the sooner I get to work the sooner I can leave again this makes it worth my while to go fast when I can. As I mentioned my average speed probably works out at 60-70km/h. Speed ranges from about 30km/h to up to about 140 in clear sections.

I think I'll need to ask them in work about getting charging stations installed. They might be keen to move towards being more green.

work charging is brilliant, and you can pre heat without fear of using too much juice, before I got work charging, if it was frosty I did set the heat remotely about 5 mins before I got to the car so it was blowing warm air by the time I got to it, it warms up incredibly fast so much that you really would be amazed even without pre heating. Pre heating is a feature I would find incredibly difficult to give up if I had to go back to an ICE, there's nothing like getting into a warm fully defogged/defrosted car in winter.

It will be work charging or a 10 - 20 min fast charge on the way home. depending on your energy consumption.

Either way your commute is more than do-a-ble with or without work charging.

I charged daily at Nelwands cross or Naas for 9 months, though Nass was the greatest pain in the hole due to some obnoxious inconsiderate assholes using the Nass DC as their own personal charger. Anyway , from Naas, 10 mins is all I needed to complete 135 Kms but I did have to drop my speed, something I could live with for the sake of saving maybe 10 mins in time. No need to be in such a rush all the time.

Ded_Zebra

Deleted User wrote: »

work charging is brilliant, and you can pre heat without fear of using too much juice, before I got work charging, if it was frosty I did set the heat remotely about 5 mins before I got to the car so it was blowing warm air by the time I got to it, it warms up incredibly fast so much that you really would be amazed even without pre heating. Pre heating is a feature I would find incredibly difficult to give up if I had to go back to an ICE, there's nothing like getting into a warm fully defogged/defrosted car in winter.

It will be work charging or a 10 - 20 min fast charge on the way home. depending on your energy consumption.

Either way your commute is more than do-a-ble with or without work charging.

I charged daily at Nelwands cross or Naas for 9 months, though Nass was the greatest pain in the hole due to some obnoxious inconsiderate assholes using the Nass DC as their own personal charger. Anyway , from Naas, 10 mins is all I needed to complete 135 Kms but I did have to drop my speed, something I could live with for the sake of saving maybe 10 mins in time. No need to be in such a rush all the time.

I'm always in a rush! It's in my nature

Stopping to charge would be a big no for me. It has to perform as well as my current car for it to be worth it IMO.

I'll put a few feelers out about the charger in work tomorrow and see what sort of reception get...

I think you should test drive it on your commute first and get a feel for the car and get an idea of the worst case scenario, which in your case is fast charging but just to get a feel for the car. I think you'll find it's worth slowing down a bit and that at the end of the day it really is much better to leave 10 mins earlier.

isnottheword

Ded_Zebra wrote: »

I'm always in a rush! It's in my nature

Stopping to charge would be a big no for me. It has to perform as well as my current car for it to be worth it IMO.

I'll put a few feelers out about the charger in work tomorrow and see what sort of reception get...

You'll need to change your ways if it's a 24kW Leaf you're thinking about buying. I used to have a heavy foot (and 5 points!) - not any more - and I'm better off for it.

I do a 130km commute (roundtrip) - but NOT on motorway - on rural roads. I don't go over 100KPH (unless to overtake). It feels wrong to be driving slower to me - but what Ive found is that in the grand scheme of things, it makes no difference i.e. maybe it costs me 5-10 mins in journey time. It's also helped me to chill out in my driving - rather than being strung out.


As the others have stated, you'll need a work charger in order to make this feasible for you. Mine are in a long drawn out process of commissioning a couple of them- but in the meantime, I access a public rapid charger across the road for 20-30 mins each day.

stesaurus

Maybe this is just me but if I came in here looking for advice on an EV and set out what I was looking for and explained my style of driving. Then if people started offering advice on how to change my style of driving and slow down to save some battery I'd run a mile. You shouldn't have to compromise on what you feel is important and people shouldn't be telling the OP how to drive.
Maybe he will change his style of driving and figure out the benefits of that, but who cares? They didn't ask that. The OP has asked specific questions, give him answers to that.
This kind of slow down advice just sends out a message that EVs are just 'milk floats' and not suitable replacements.

mordeith

Well except he says he's driving at times at up to 20kph over the speed limit. Hardly denigrating EVs to suggest keeping below this

k123456

I'm not sure if Companies get a financial incentive or writes offs to install chargers , maybe a call to ESB Ecars , might confirm

KCross

k123456 wrote: »

I'm not sure if Companies get a financial incentive or writes offs to install chargers , maybe a call to ESB Ecars , might confirm

There is:
http://www.seai.ie/your_business/accelerated_capital_allowance/

Ded_Zebra

mordeith wrote: »

Well except he says he's driving at times at up to 20kph over the speed limit. Hardly denigrating EVs to suggest keeping below this

The point is that my current car can do it no problem at all. If an EV can deliver the same then it is a suitable replacement. If an EV can't then I won't be getting one!

I've seen a few recently that don't hang about on the road, that coupled with the low cost to buy an older leaf these days has me interested in finding out if one will work for me.
The general consensus is that yes it will work for me if I can charge it at work which is great news. I would really like to give an EV a proper trial

isnottheword

s.welstead wrote: »

Maybe this is just me but if I came in here looking for advice on an EV and set out what I was looking for and explained my style of driving. Then if people started offering advice on how to change my style of driving and slow down to save some battery I'd run a mile. You shouldn't have to compromise on what you feel is important and people shouldn't be telling the OP how to drive.
Maybe he will change his style of driving and figure out the benefits of that, but who cares? They didn't ask that. The OP has asked specific questions, give him answers to that.
This kind of slow down advice just sends out a message that EVs are just 'milk floats' and not suitable replacements.

I think it's important that he's brought up to speed as regards realistic expectations. There are always compromises to be made - some can live with them, some cannot. He can make that decision based on the feedback we give him.

He did say that unless the replacement EV could do the same job (140kph on extended stretches of motorway on a long commute), then it's not for him. Therefore, a description of how the rest of us get round a commute like that is important.

I'm not suggesting for a second that he should drive this way or compromise this way (as he can decide to continue to drive his ICE and review again in a couple of years time instead). However, I do believe that he should go into this with his eyes wide open - that way, he's not going to be disappointed.

As regards the 'milk float' comment, on a motorway it can often 'feel' like a milk float with every other car passing you out if your driving a distance. If you're not driving a distance then its possible to drive at speed.

isnottheword

Ded_Zebra wrote: »

The point is that my current car can do it no problem at all. If an EV can deliver the same then it is a suitable replacement. If an EV can't then I won't be getting one!:)

Current EV's can match practically any ICE for speed - but not for an infinite period of time.

Ded_Zebra wrote: »

I've seen a few recently that don't hang about on the road, that coupled with the low cost to buy an older leaf these days has me interested in finding out if one will work for me.

See above. If you're scooting around town or on shorter runs, then speed isn't an issue. However, for longer distances, the speed you drive at in an EV is something that has to be carefully considered as the energy in the battery flitters away at speeds above 100kph.

Ded_Zebra wrote: »

The general consensus is that yes it will work for me if I can charge it at work which is great news. I would really like to give an EV a proper trial

Yes, most likely it will - but I would seriously suggest that you try and get a test drive or use of an EV for a couple of days so that you know EXACTLY what you are getting yourself into.

stesaurus

isnottheword wrote: »

I think it's important that he's brought up to speed as regards realistic expectations. There are always compromises to be made - some can live with them, some cannot. He can make that decision based on the feedback we give him.

He did say that unless the replacement EV could do the same job (140kph on extended stretches of motorway on a long commute), then it's not for him. Therefore, a description of how the rest of us get round a commute like that is important.

I'm not suggesting for a second that he should drive this way or compromise this way (as he can decide to continue to drive his ICE and review again in a couple of years time instead). However, I do believe that he should go into this with his eyes wide open - that way, he's not going to be disappointed.

As regards the 'milk float' comment, on a motorway it can often 'feel' like a milk float with every other car passing you out if your driving a distance. If you're not driving a distance then its possible to drive at speed.

He's made it very clear what he wants and asked can an EV match that. We've advised him it can if he charges in between, otherwise no. Anything else is just noise and people's opinions on speed limits and range stretching. If he comes back and asks about all that, then fine fair enough.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as aggressive or dismissive here but really he asked simple questions. I don't get why people need to start pulling this off into other discussions.

Well for starters the OP says he has some 60-70 kph roads and some 140 Kph, with work charging that's more than do-a-ble in the 24 Kwh Leaf with work charging.

I never drove below 100 Kph and even did some 110 kph on my commute of 135 kms and made it with only a 10-15 min Max fast charge before I got the work charge point.. If the weather is very cold he might have to stretch the fast charge to 20 mins, But mostly I got away with 10-15 mins.

I couldn't care less if he drives at 160 Kph but the point I was making earlier is that by driving at the limits or a bit less than 120 isn't going to make much of a difference to time but will to range.

isnottheword

s.welstead wrote: »

Anything else is just noise and people's opinions on speed limits and range stretching.

Rubbish. He talked about driving at 140kph - he needs to know the effects of driving faster on the battery of an EV.

Yes I absolutely agree, and the benefits of slowing down a tad.

BoatMad

Ded_Zebra wrote: »

I'm always in a rush! It's in my nature

Stopping to charge would be a big no for me. It has to perform as well as my current car for it to be worth it IMO.

I'll put a few feelers out about the charger in work tomorrow and see what sort of reception get...

based on this , a current EV is not for you . no biggie, maybe in a few years when the taxes on ICE cars and the social opprobrium of being an environmental polluter will change your mind