If a new team were to join the League of Ireland, who should it be?

civis_liberalis

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

There needs to be a reserve/U23 league to keep fringe players interested and show the manager what they are capable of.

100%

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

For 1st division clubs, players also need to be allowed play for their local Junior club.

Absolutely not and there is no fear of it happening anyway. Players not getting game time is a symptom of the FAI not putting a proper structure in place and clubs, despite being in the football business, not wanting the "hassle" of running proper football clubs, with reserves and a proper youth setup.

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

How can you ask a player train all year with minimal prospects of playing a competitive match?

It only happens because we don't have reserves. That needs to change. If not reserves an u23 setup.

Sr. Pirotecnic

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

If Sligo can sustain good crowds considering the population, why can't Carlow, Leitrim, Offaly etc.

Because Sligo is a football town and has supported a club for nearly a century. It's not something you can magic up overnight as Thurles, Kildare, Kilkenny, Monaghan etc have found out.

Sr. Pirotecnic

Sr. Pirotecnic wrote: »

Because Sligo is a football town and has supported a club for nearly a century. It's not something you can magic up overnight as Thurles, Kildare, Kilkenny, Monaghan etc have found out.

Indeed the locality has to have an appetite for soccer. Wexford might be a better example than Sligo in this regard given that Wexford are relative newbies and Sligo are established

topmanamillion

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

I think the FAI need to appoint someone soley to look after the league in conjunction with the member clubs. Also, encouraging each County to have a club. If Sligo can sustain good crowds considering the population, why can't Carlow, Leitrim, Offally etc aim to build clubs from scratch, or build on current infastructures, like Cabinteely.

Leitrim wouldn't have a hope of sustaining a LOI club.
They struggle to field a GAA team despite plenty of good will and support.
There's also the fact Carrick on Shannon is right in the middle of Sligo Rovers' catchment area, with a decent pocket of support coming from that town.
Leitrim also doesn't have a junior league of its own, their clubs play in the Sligo/Leitrim league.

Cabinteely are right in the heart of Dunlaoighre/Rathdowne, one of the most densely populated areas in the country and they have a junior club with over 1000 members.
There's no comparison between them and Leitrim.

On a side note, there's real potential for Cabinteely and UCD to merge possibly with another big junior club involved and create a large LOI club in an area that's wide open for it.
Cabinteely have the youth structure and UCD have the record of producing top LOI players through education and excellent facilities. Match made in heaven as far as I'm concerned.

Pat D. Almighty

Sr. Pirotecnic wrote: »

Because Sligo is a football town and has supported a club for nearly a century. It's not something you can magic up overnight as Thurles, Kildare, Kilkenny, Monaghan etc have found out.

Thurles, Kildare, Kilkenny, Monaghan etc were run by the same type of people that run pubs, refuse to make changes then blame the lack of appetite for their demise. Suppose, we are a nation of whatsthepointers.

As for expecting things to happen over night, maybe thats part of the problem.

Pat D. Almighty

topmanamillion wrote: »

Leitrim wouldn't have a hope of sustaining a LOI club.
They struggle to field a GAA team despite plenty of good will and support.
There's also the fact Carrick on Shannon is right in the middle of Sligo Rovers' catchment area, with a decent pocket of support coming from that town.
Leitrim also doesn't have a junior league of its own, their clubs play in the Sligo/Leitrim league.

Cabinteely are right in the heart of Dunlaoighre/Rathdowne, one of the most densely populated areas in the country and they have a junior club with over 1000 members.
There's no comparison between them and Leitrim.

On a side note, there's real potential for Cabinteely and UCD to merge possibly with another big junior club involved and create a large LOI club in an area that's wide open for it.
Cabinteely have the youth structure and UCD have the record of producing top LOI players through education and excellent facilities. Match made in heaven as far as I'm concerned.

Leitrim was just thrown in there for arguments sake, but good points all the same.

In relation to the OP, I suppose we'd need to look at large urban areas for potential clubs that can step up/in.

Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford, Drogheda, Dundalk have clubs. After those cities/towns, Swords is the next most populated town, and I think Fingal definitely has the potential to sustain a team. Could Shelbourne eventually move up that direction? How about Swords FC stepping up?

Navan, Ennis, Kilkenny, Tralee, Carlow, Newbridge, Naas, Portlaoise, Mullingar. All these towns have 20k people. I'm not talking about over night magic, I'm talking long term development plans on the part of the FAI and local authorities.

westernfrenzy

As much as I would like to see it, there's not much hope for Navan getting a LOI team together. State of football in the town isn't that great. Only Parkvilla are LSL standard and even then, they're playing alongside the Junior level LSL teams. Unless they struck up some sort of deal with the other clubs here, which isn't gonna happen honestly. There's also the fact that Drogheda United and Dundalk are close enough too.

topmanamillion

I think what's worth remembering is there's no point admitting clubs into the league unless they are viable.
The leagues main problem is its poorly ran with miniscule crowds and prize money.
Bringing in Navan Town or Castlebar Celtic won't fix that.

Pat D. Almighty

westernfrenzy wrote: »

As much as I would like to see it, there's not much hope for Navan getting a LOI team together. State of football in the town isn't that great. Only Parkvilla are LSL standard and even then, they're playing alongside the Junior level LSL teams. Unless they struck up some sort of deal with the other clubs here, which isn't gonna happen honestly. There's also the fact that Drogheda United and Dundalk are close enough too.

Long term lads! Loooonnngggg terrrrrmmmm plaaaannninggg

All it takes is for one person to get the ball rolling.

westernfrenzy

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

Long term lads! Loooonnngggg terrrrrmmmm plaaaannninggg

All it takes is for one person to get the ball rolling.

Ah yeah didn't think of the long term. It may happen if it was a long term thing although I'm not too sure if anyone at Parkvilla would entertain that idea :P

If that doesn't work out then a Meath-based LOI team could work. Trim and Kells are close by and with their underage teams having a few quality players, there might be demand in 10-15 years

Pat D. Almighty

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

Long term lads! Loooonnngggg terrrrrmmmm plaaaannninggg

All it takes is for one person to get the ball rolling.

Take Kilkenny City for example. Was started by Jim Rhatigan and three of his then Leaving Cert classmates in 1966. It can be done. Sustainability is the bigger challenge

Pat D. Almighty

Deleted User wrote: »

Take Kilkenny City for example. Was started by Jim Rhatigan and three of his then Leaving Cert classmates in 1966. It can be done. Sustainability is the bigger challenge

If I had some money to waste/invest/gamble, I'd pick a town out of a hat and set up the foundations for a LOI club.

I'd hope it would be Leitrim Town They're due a population increase any time soon

Pat D. Almighty

Hypothetical restructure of the LOI.

PREMIER DIVISION

1. Bohemians (CL)
==============
2. Bray Wanderers (EL)

---

3. Cork City (EL PLAYOFF)
4. Derry City
5. Drogheda United
6. Dundalk

---

7. Finn Harps
8. Galway United
9. Limerick FC
10. Shamrock Rovers
11. Sligo Rovers

---

12. St. Patricks Athletic (R)
13. Athlone Town (R)
14. Wexford Youths (R)



FIRST DIVISION

1. Shelbourne FC (P)
2. Waterford United (P)
==============
3. Cobh Ramblers (Promotion Play-Offs)
4. Longford Town
5. UCD
6. Cabinteely

---

7. TEAM from MONAGHAN
8. TEAM from KILEKNNY
9. TEAM from CARLOW
10. TEAM from CLARE
11. TEAM from KERRY
12. TEAM from MEATH



Obviously, a healthy top flight should be the first point of call for the FAI, but encouraging other clubs/leagues to step up should be on the to-do list for an over-all healthy league system.

Gavin "shels"

People have to realise, if teams aren't winning there won't be a support generated even to start with. Kilkenny, Kildare and Monaghan all tried and failed miserably in LoI terms. There should be one 20 team League, simple as that imo.

ArmaniJeanss

Gavin shels wrote: »

People have to realise, if teams aren't winning there won't be a support generated even to start with. Kilkenny, Kildare and Monaghan all tried and failed miserably in LoI terms. There should be one 20 team League, simple as that imo.

In a one division league teams from 7th to 20th would have nothing to play for from around halfway through the season.
In a two division structure the teams from 7th-10th in the higher league and 1st to 5th in the lower league are fighting for/against promotion/relegation so there are a lot more meaningful matches to engage the supporters. Theoretically.

topmanamillion

Gavin "shels" wrote: »

People have to realise, if teams aren't winning there won't be a support generated even to start with. Kilkenny, Kildare and Monaghan all tried and failed miserably in LoI terms. There should be one 20 team League, simple as that imo.

There's no logic to that.
You're removing a competition where the likes of those clubs could be competitive (First Division) and replacing it with a 20 team league where they would surely have nothing to play for with a few good pastings from Bray thrown in for good measure.

Mr_Spaceman

In the interests of 'cultural diversity' why not invite Linfield and Glentoran?

Could liven things up a bit.

Pat D. Almighty

Mr_Spaceman wrote: »

In the interests of 'cultural diversity' why not invite Linfield and Glentoran?

Could liven things up a bit.

I doubt they'd do something to annoy almost every single one of their fans.

Pat D. Almighty

Gavin shels wrote: »

People have to realise, if teams aren't winning there won't be a support generated even to start with. Kilkenny, Kildare and Monaghan all tried and failed miserably in LoI terms. There should be one 20 team League, simple as that imo.

They all caved in too easily and made excuses.

To my mind, the only way to radically change matters is to consider a cross border league. No matter what anyone says about this town or that, the fact is provincial towns have been tried again and again and, while some have lingered longer than others, it's not really worked. A top flight made up of the best teams from across the island and below that some element of regional leagues to reduce travel costs, at least maintain some element of rivalry for clubs that really can only rely on that to get a few in the gates until they get into the top flight etc. I know there are significant obstacles, but unless it's at least considered we are only rearranging the deck chairs every few years. Granted, we have just seen our first example of a club moving on from this to do well at a sustained level in Europe, but for many it really is just limping along.

Pat D. Almighty

Deleted User wrote: »

To my mind, the only way to radically change matters is to consider a cross border league. No matter what anyone says about this town or that, the fact is provincial towns have been tried again and again and, while some have lingered longer than others, it's not really worked.

Yeh, no one really tries hard enough. Adaptabiliy is not one of our national traits. Anyway, I don't think we have the political and social climate to even consider an all-Ireland league at the moment. We would do better by encouraging clubs from the 26 to join the league before asking clubs from Norn Iron.

citytillidie

Have it MLS style joint league instead of East / West have it North / South.

2 rounds of fixtures home and away against those in you North / South League
1 round of mixed fixtures between North and South.

This would give 3 tables North / South for European places no neither lose that and relegation. Then have a prize for the overall winner.

Would mean one league would have to change playing times.

Fr Tod Umptious

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

Yeh, no one really tries hard enough. Adaptabiliy is not one of our national traits. Anyway, I don't think we have the political and social climate to even consider an all-Ireland league at the moment. We would do better by encouraging clubs from the 26 to join the league before asking clubs from Norn Iron.

But define "tries hard enough"

No one can constantly put money into a loss making enterprise, there has to be a point where they stop.

Unless you get a benefactor with a massive investment then you try until such a time as you decide to cut your losses and exit.

topmanamillion

The NIFL clubs have zero interest in an All Ireland league. They choose playing Scottish lower league and SPL U23 sides over the chance to be crowned All Ireland champions.
Neither FA wants it either as it has the potential to dilute European places and start an All Ireland international side conversation which would cut cushy jobs in both associations.

Gavin "shels"

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

In a one division league teams from 7th to 20th would have nothing to play for from around halfway through the season.
In a two division structure the teams from 7th-10th in the higher league and 1st to 5th in the lower league are fighting for/against promotion/relegation so there are a lot more meaningful matches to engage the supporters. Theoretically.

topmanamillion wrote: »

There's no logic to that.
You're removing a competition where the likes of those clubs could be competitive (First Division) and replacing it with a 20 team league where they would surely have nothing to play for with a few good pastings from Bray thrown in for good measure.

May be nothing to play for, but I realistically still think it's the only option.

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

They all caved in too easily and made excuses.

Hardly, Kilkenny were getting 50 people to matches, Kildare and Monaghan no more than 150.

topmanamillion

Gavin "shels" wrote: »

May be nothing to play for, but I realistically still think it's the only option.

I don't. I think it would be an absolute disaster.
The likes of Dundalk, Cork, Shamrock, Sligo etc are capable of maintaining fulltime professional set ups for between 40 to 52 weeks.
Throwing in 8 more amateur/part time sides into a league is going to do them no favours.

If you read up on the Austrian and Swiss league (2 countries regularly putting sides in the advanced stages of European competitions and both have 10 team leagues) you`ll quickly see there`s a lot of merit in a 10 team top league.

Less is sometimes more.

Pat D. Almighty

Gavin shels wrote: »

Hardly, Kilkenny were getting 50 people to matches, Kildare and Monaghan no more than 150.

Yeh...then they gave up.

Ferris_Bueller

topmanamillion wrote: »

I don't. I think it would be an absolute disaster.
The likes of Dundalk, Cork, Shamrock, Sligo etc are capable of maintaining fulltime professional set ups for between 40 to 52 weeks.
Throwing in 8 more amateur/part time sides into a league is going to do them no favours.

If you read up on the Austrian and Swiss league (2 countries regularly putting sides in the advanced stages of European competitions and both have 10 team leagues) you`ll quickly see there`s a lot of merit in a 10 team top league.

Less is sometimes more.

Agreed, the idea of having 20 teams in a league is nice as you could avoid the repetition of playing each other too often and maybe give clubs more of a chance to build slowly and work their way up the league, but way too many clubs would have nothing to play for.

Only the top four qualify for europe (assuming the cup winners are in the top four), and as it stands only two clubs get relegated, so really come the end of the season there are only six league positions of any importance. Prize money in the league isn't good enough to make anyone give a **** if they finish 13th or 14th, and overall I can see it having a negative impact on crowds as there would be more games (which would mean more midweek games) and would Rovers, Dundalk, Cork fans be as keen to turn up to watch them play Cabinteely? I wouldn't think so, my money is that they prefer playing each other three times a season.

Maybe for the first division clubs it would work out better as right now the first division is a disgrace, but overall it would bring the quality of the LoI down IMO.

Christy Browne

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Agreed, the idea of having 20 teams in a league is nice as you could avoid the repetition of playing each other too often and maybe give clubs more of a chance to build slowly and work their way up the league, but way too many clubs would have nothing to play for.

Only the top four qualify for europe (assuming the cup winners are in the top four), and as it stands only two clubs get relegated, so really come the end of the season there are only six league positions of any importance. Prize money in the league isn't good enough to make anyone give a **** if they finish 13th or 14th, and overall I can see it having a negative impact on crowds as there would be more games (which would mean more midweek games) and would Rovers, Dundalk, Cork fans be as keen to turn up to watch them play Cabinteely? I wouldn't think so, my money is that they prefer playing each other three times a season.

Maybe for the first division clubs it would work out better as right now the first division is a disgrace, but overall it would bring the quality of the LoI down IMO.

You can't have a one league system in UEFA anyway, it's against the rules, so all this talk is pointless

dundalkfc10

Christy Browne wrote: »

You can't have a one league system in UEFA anyway, it's against the rules, so all this talk is pointless

They do have only 1 league in certain countries! Cant think of the off top of my head but theres def a few in Europe

Christy Browne

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

They do have only 1 league in certain countries! Cant think of the off top of my head but theres def a few in Europe

You're not allowed compete in European competitions without a promotion/relegation structure in place, any examples?

batistuta9

Christy Browne wrote: »

You're not allowed compete in European competitions without a promotion/relegation structure in place, any examples?

Liechtenstein

civis_liberalis

batistuta9 wrote: »

Liechtenstein

They don't have a league, which is why they are an exception to the rule.

topmanamillion

civis_liberalis wrote: »

They don't have a league, which is why they are an exception to the rule.

They also only have one EL spot and no CL spot. The Leichenstein Cup winners get the EL spot.

civis_liberalis

civis_liberalis wrote: »

They don't have a league, which is why they are an exception to the rule.

What about a 16 team top division and invite more participants to make up a 10-16 second tier or would it create a chasm in class between premier and div 1?

ben.schlomo

Deleted User wrote: »

What about a 16 team top division and invite more participants to make up a 10-16 second tier or would it create a chasm in class between premier and div 1?

There isnt the depth of teams available to run that, i cant see regional junior teams wanting the long trips etc that it would involve, unless it was regionalised in that tier, still dont think the teams/interest are there.

I see Waterford going for it again with Fenlon and Alan Reynolds heading south east. I think every Cork City fan would like to see the return of that rivalry. Instead of hoping for new clubs to emerge from places like Tralee, think one other idea would be to focus on the clubs already there and the FAI appointing officers to assist them with PR, financial management etc. Surely whatever format the league might be, it has to be based on cities like Waterford, Limerick and Galway having one strong club pulling in gates of 1500 plus for big games, instead of the cycles of rise and fall that has become their hallmark and then hoping some club like Cabinteely make the grade in a city full of clubs.