Is something wrong with my battery

Firblog

Hi,

I have concerns about the distance I'm getting on my leaf. I can have the car charged to 80% with estimated range of 115KM, then drive 28km to destination @ 80/90kmph, then drive back @no more that 80kmph and arrive with 25/30km range left.

Is this normal?

BoatMad

Firblog wrote: »

Hi,

I have concerns about the distance I'm getting on my leaf. I can have the car charged to 80% with estimated range of 115KM, then drive 28km to destination @ 80/90kmph, then drive back @no more that 80kmph and arrive with 25/30km range left.

Is this normal?

hills, outside temperature etc ?, age of the car , battery bars?

Firblog

Yes hilly, both towns at sea level so downs are equal to ups, last night was 8C, reg 152. dunno what you're asking with battery bars..?

KCross

Firblog wrote: »

Hi,

I have concerns about the distance I'm getting on my leaf. I can have the car charged to 80% with estimated range of 115KM, then drive 28km to destination @ 80/90kmph, then drive back @no more that 80kmph and arrive with 25/30km range left.

Is this normal?

What % is left when you get back?
Don't pay much attention to the range meter. It changes a lot especially with hills so if the end of your journey is a hill it will give you a worse reading than actual.

The battery % is what you need to look at.

mordeith

Firblog wrote: »

dunno what you're asking with battery bars..?

The estimated range is sometimes off in terms of actual driving. How many bars are left on the battery gauge when you get back? (equally how many when you start).

PS I don't think there's any advantage to only charging to 80% at home. AFAIK this was recommenced by Nissan in the earlier days of the Leaf but has shown to make practically no difference in battery health as opposed to charging to 100%.

Hills have little effect on the Leaf range, I can start out with 100% charge and drive from about 10 Km from Baltinglass to Hollywood on the N81, then by the time I get to the top of Turlough Hill it could say 50 kms left and by the time I get to Laragh it will say I have 130 odd kms, the first time I drove this it scared the crap out of me.

The range indicator needs some time to adjust but if you don't change your driving style or go to much different terrain it's actually pretty accurate.

Anyway, I can continue from Laragh down the Rathdrum road , over the bridge and take a right for Glenmalure , that's some pretty steep climb, anyway, down to Glenmalure lodge cross and straight and into Aughavannagh, Rathdangan , Talbotstown, Baltinglass and then home. Some of this trip has some seriously long steep climbs, coming down uses little to no energy and excess speed is used to control speed only, I use B and this is what B is really useful for, I only hit the brakes if I need more stopping power than regen can provide coming into a bad bend.

Sometimes I continue to Arklow, I can do Arklow on one charge but I usually charge at Wicklow Town DC, Arklow have 2 x 3 Kw useless AC charge points that the ESB think are 22 Kw but their not, I don't know what the one at the Train Station is ?

Anyway, the only way to know the exact Kwh in your battery is to get a Bluetooth to OBD II dongle and install Leaf Spy on an Android device.

Scottie99

The temperature has decreased. I'm noticing four bars every morning..

mordeith

Scottie99 wrote: »

The temperature has decreased. I'm noticing four bars every morning..

You only have four bars after charging? That can't be right.

TBi

mordeith wrote: »

You only have four bars after charging? That can't be right.

Temperature bars?

mordeith

mordeith wrote: »

You only have four bars after charging? That can't be right.

He means 4 temp bars. Not range.

Range will decrease and fast charge times increase on a cold battery true, but if charging and driving daily should help keep it warm especially charging at 6.6 Kw and fast charging , it should help a lot.

Fast charging from a low charge , 20% or a bit below will help warm it faster.

I've noticed a decrease in regen braking too , at one stage starting out not driving for a few days I hardly got more than 22 Kw regen from 30 Kw max.

I can still get 110 kms easy enough at 100-110 Kph. Preheating on the mains will help.

I really appreciate the remote and timer heating this time of year as well as the heated seats and steering.

BoatMad

I find the guess-o-meter quite accurate once you appreciate how it works.

My rule of thumb is

(A) drive with two power dots on average , actual range will exceed initial GOM and over the course of the journey , GOM will increase

(B) three power dots range will less then GOM

(C) 4 power dots average , GOM will be significantly over estimate range ( at the out set ) this equates to 110 kmph driving


What I do is maintain a mental computation between remaining sat nav distance to run and GOM . Let's say if I have 40 km of " headroom " and over the course of the drive I maintain that headroom , then I know I have no worries.

IF however the rate of reduction in distance to run is less then the rate of reduction of the GOM ie my " headroom " is reducing , then I can choose to slow down or decide to charge.

On any journey on a motorway I find long motorway climbs use a net 10 km of GOM reading , so for example to do Dublin -Gorey , a distance of about 100km. The very minimum I need on the GOM is 140 km and typically I will ensure I have 170 km available. There are 4 decent hills on the journey so I can deduct 40 km from the initial GOM giving me a real range on that journey of 130km and that's exactly more or less what's arrive home with ( 25km typically )

On the M4 M6 this is flatter so I get closer to the initial GOM.

Outside that my default " rule of thumb " is GOM showing twice the necessary sat nav distance , I find that never fails me if I maintain 100 kmph

In general I find 95kmph gives the greatest correlation between GOM and sat nav

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

I find the guess-o-meter quite accurate once you appreciate how it works.

My rule of thumb is

(A) drive with two power dots on average , actual range will exceed initial GOM and over the course of the journey , GOM will increase

(B) three power dots range will less then GOM

(C) 4 power dots average , GOM will be significantly over estimate range ( at the out set ) this equates to 110 kmph driving


What I do is maintain a mental computation between remaining sat nav distance to run and GOM . Let's say if I have 40 km of " headroom " and over the course of the drive I maintain that headroom , then I know I have no worries.

IF however the rate of reduction in distance to run is less then the rate of reduction of the GOM ie my " headroom " is reducing , then I can choose to slow down or decide to charge.

On any journey on a motorway I find long motorway climbs use a net 10 km of GOM reading , so for example to do Dublin -Gorey , a distance of about 100km. The very minimum I need on the GOM is 140 km and typically I will ensure I have 170 km available. There are 4 decent hills on the journey so I can deduct 40 km from the initial GOM giving me a real range on that journey of 130km and that's exactly more or less what's arrive home with ( 25km typically )

On the M4 M6 this is flatter so I get closer to the initial GOM.

Outside that my default " rule of thumb " is GOM showing twice the necessary sat nav distance , I find that never fails me if I maintain 100 kmph

In general I find 95kmph gives the greatest correlation between GOM and sat nav

I think you are over thinking the GOM and making EV driving sound complex and boring.... rules of thumb, power dots, mental computation... its a fairly rudimentary device that will behave differently for different people.

You have worked out a system for you but that probably wont work for others. For starters, I believe you use Eco which most people dont. How many people would monitor and average two power dots... not many I'd say. That's too sedate for me anyway.

AFAIK it simply calculates the range left based on how much power was used in the "last few miles" and how much power is left in the battery. Simple!

If you drive on a flat road and put the cruise control on it will be reasonably accurate at any speed. The reason the GOM goes up and down is because our roads arent flat and we all have different driving styles. It is continuously recalculating (every 30secs I believe) based on the last few miles and basing its range on the rest of the drive being the exact same characteristics. Its called the guess-o-meter for a reason!

Trying to second guess it and monitoring power dots etc is distracting. Just enjoy the drive and pay more attention to battery % than GOM if you are worried about range. Each to their own I suppose.

If it works for you fine but you make EV driving sound complex which feeds into the fear of EV. If I was a newbie reading your post I'd be worried.

Scottie99

mordeith wrote: »

You only have four bars after charging? That can't be right.

Quite normal. Every Leaf I've had at this time of year after an over night charge will have four. Jesus, one morning, I had three bars ☃️☃️☃️☃️

BoatMad

Trying to second guess it and monitoring power dots etc is distracting. Just enjoy the drive and pay more attention to battery % than GOM if you are worried about range. Each to their own I suppose.

battery percentage is fine if you know the route and have in effect "route place markers " versus battery percentage , which is what my wife uses, i.e. , she knows as she passes a point , what the typical battery percentage should be based on experience, and this gives her peace of mind.

However if you are setting off on a long drive, you need to be able to " interpret " The GOM so that you have some assurance , you will reach your intended destination or charger .

as I said for my Nissan Leaf

Rule of thumb #1
have twice on the GOM what the satnav says is the distance , thats a general rule for us = carefree motoring ( at 100kmph or less)

If you are " stretching the limit" and have a long run to a charger, then you have to be able to read and interpret the GOM. As you say the GOM essentially takes current battery capacity and computes range based on average driving over the last few minutes

Rule of thumb #2
at <100Kmph, the average is two power dots ( you dont need to monitor that ), AT that speed in general the achieved distance will closely match the GOM , assuming the route isn't too hilly , for each known hill ( of motorway type inclines) subtract 10 km from the range on the GOM

consequence, if you are running close to the GOM limit, drive at 95kmph


thats it really

The other technique of tracking rate of decrease of GOM against rate of satnav decrease is actually a very trivial thing to do and is very useful to allow you to predict if you are consuming range faster then expected ( i.e. decide sooner to divert to a charger ) , but hey i just outlined my thinking , so that uses can use the GOM more accurately

BoatMad

If you drive on a flat road and put the cruise control on it will be reasonably accurate at any speed.

nonsense

try drving at 120 kmph, you will see the GOM reduce range for the whole extent of the journey , essentially rendering the initial or early stage GOM range readings useless. GOM range accuracy near the end of your journey is pretty useless, you need it at the start !!!


my journeys in the leaf, prove your statement to be false. because why would I charge in Templeogue to 170 km on the GOM to get to Gorey when on the satnav it says 100Km. with your logic I should leave with say 120kmn on the GOM. ( answer on a post card please)

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

As you say the GOM essentially takes current battery capacity and computes range based on average driving over the last few minutes

BoatMad wrote: »

nonsense
try drving at 120 kmph, you will see the GOM reduce range for the whole extent of the journey , essentially rendering the initial or early stage GOM range readings useless. GOM range accuracy near the end of your journey is pretty useless, you need it at the start !!!


my journeys in the leaf, prove your statement to be false. because why would I charge in Templeogue to 170 km on the GOM to get to Gorey when on the satnav it says 100Km. with your logic I should leave with say 120kmn on the GOM. ( answer on a post card please)

Your first statement suggests you agree with my premise that it calculates the range left based on the last few miles of driving and remaining capacity.

So, why is it nonsense?

I will put in a caveat to my statement since we are picking holes... at "very high" speeds it will be more inaccurate and thats exactly why its called the guess-o-meter!!!

You do realise my statement about the cruise control was to make a point. We dont have perfectly flat roads for miles on end so its a hypothetical statement.

The main point I was making with the statement was that the GOM is based on energy used vs energy remaining. I still stick to that.


I suppose the fact we need to have this conversation proves that range is one of the big issues with todays EV's as we shouldnt have to monitor a range meter like this. It puts people off. You dont have to do it on an ICE and until we can do a days worth of driving without charging, EV's are going to be stuck where they are sales wise.

It's not inaccurate at high speeds, if you're driving at 120-130 Kph but start at 60-100 Kph it will take time to adjust to the higher speeds and if you slow down again it will take a bit to readjust.

It's not going to be possible for any EV to predict your trip, it would have to see the future.

With 60+ Kwh batteries people won't really pay attention to the GOM like they don't with an ICE car.

Once people get familiar with their EV they will know what range to expect at a particular trip or speed in different weather and terrain.

BoatMad

I suppose the fact we need to have this conversation proves that range is one of the big issues with todays EV's as we shouldnt have to monitor a range meter like this. It puts people off. You dont have to do it on an ICE and until we can do a days worth of driving without charging, EV's are going to be stuck where they are sales wise.

I agree entirely

Firblog

How can I change readout from Time to charge -> % charge left?

Also, I don't know about you guys but when buying the leaf I kinda figured that I'd be able to drive 60km without having to adjust driving style because there might not be enough power in the battery to cover the distance.. isn't this pretty much 50% of what many of you guys would say is the real world range of the leaf?

There is no way I could do that journey driving at 100kmph; and that doesn't seem right

mordeith

How old is your car?

Firblog

mordeith wrote: »

How old is your car?

It's 152

mordeith

Firblog wrote: »

It's 152

So if I'm reading your above post correctly you feel you can't drive 60km at 100kph due to range? We have a used 131 and could manage that.

There's nothing wrong with the battery you just need to get more familiar with it.

The car will take a few kms to adjust to your driving, when you get in after a charge it's making a range estimation based on your previous days driving. Sudden changes take time to be seen on the range indicator , aka, the GOM.

If it's the XE model you have then it will knock 20 Kms off the range as soon as you turn on the heat regardless of temp or how warm the car is.

mordeith

mordeith wrote: »

So if I'm reading your above post correctly you feel you can't drive 60km at 100kph due to range? We have a used 131 and could manage that.

from an 80% charge.

OP is talking about an 80% charge.

I could easily manage 70-80 Kms on 80% charge at 100 kph heat on.

mordeith

[Deleted User] wrote: »

OP is talking about an 80% charge.

I could easily manage 70-80 Kms on 80% charge at 100 kph heat on.

I'd be able to get close to that myself at 80%.
I wonder is the OP range displaying in miles? Is changed itself there a while and for a few days I was like 'what's up with the range?'

pwurple

Deleted User wrote: »

Hills have little effect on the Leaf range

:rolleyes:

pwurple

pwurple wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Hills don't have much of an effect on range as I discovered driving the steepest of hills in Wicklow. Coming down balances out any range lost.

Driving at high speeds on motorways have much more of an effect.

TBi

Deleted User wrote: »

Hills don't have much of an effect on range as I discovered driving the steepest of hills in Wicklow. Coming down balances out any range lost.

Really depends on your driving style though. If you power up the hills then use excessive braking on the way down (no regen) then you'll notice a drop off.

A bit like how some people can beat the claimed mpg on a prius (when they know how it works) while some people complain about low mpg (heavy right foot and even heavier braking foot).

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

Hills don't have much of an effect on range as I discovered driving the steepest of hills in Wicklow. Coming down balances out any range lost.

Driving at high speeds on motorways have much more of an effect.

I agree high speed on motorways is much more consequential but your first statement doesnt make alot of sense. By your own admission, on many posts, regen is not efficient(~30%) therefore the energy cant possibly balance on the way down.

And I would echo @TBi statement that it is very much dependent on driving style and whether you are purposely trying to save energy. From your previous Prius days, @Mad_Lad, I'd say you do that alot. Most people wont. They'll just drive it like an ICE and hence hills will affect range quite a bit.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

I agree high speed on motorways is much more consequential but your first statement doesnt make alot of sense. By your own admission, on many posts, regen is not efficient(~30%) therefore the energy cant possibly balance on the way down.

Yes by Nissan's own documents, regen is about 30% efficient the rest lost in friction.

So my point about hills is that what you loose going up balances out pretty well by the end because you recover some energy using regen to slow excess speed and also by not using energy coming down which is the big one.

KCross wrote: »

And I would echo @TBi statement that it is very much dependent on driving style and whether you are purposely trying to save energy. From your previous Prius days, @Mad_Lad, I'd say you do that alot. Most people wont. They'll just drive it like an ICE and hence hills will affect range quite a bit.

On the contrary, I drive the Leaf much much harder then I ever drove the prius or most ICE's, I don't have to pay so much for fuel and the work charge point takes care of half my commute, but even if all my charging was from home I still wouldn't care.