Why will the Govt not hold an "Irexit" referendum?

Junkyard Tom

LordSutch wrote: »

leave the EU & join the UK on some kind of economic footing.

Forget it.

One of the reasons we joined the EU in the first place was to offset the influence the British state had over Ireland.

Jayop

LordSutch wrote: »

When I said "in our favour" I was talking about our economy here in Ireland, and the possibility of use eyeing up the idea of a referendum to leave the EU & join the UK on some kind of economic footing. This in the light of Brexit being an economic success, while the EU marches on with an ever closer and more integrated EU :cool:

Ah, I wasn't even trying to be a smart arse there when I assumed you meant the UK economy. I see pretty much no chance of the people of Ireland voting to leave the EU and joining a closer Union with the old enemy. It just wont happen.

Junkyard Tom

Jayop wrote: »

I'm pretty pro-EU

I am generally too but think we should have a very well worked out plan B just in case.

Capt'n Midnight

There is no point in us leaving the EU to get the Norway deal because it wouldn't be cheaper, we'd loose our veto and have to accept free travel and EU decisions on external tariffs. We might get more control of fisheries but all that would happen is that a few boats of the size of the Atlantic Dawn would be awarded the new quotas because of political connections. And you know that to be true.



On the other hand if we were outside the EU and had to align with the UK this would happen.
https://i.imgur.com/Q8mqXFw.png

Just Retired

Article 29 Paragraph 4 Clause 3 States :"The State may become a member of the European Atomic Energy Community (established by Treaty signed in Rome on the 25th day of March 1957)". This clause either replaced or was added as new one in order to allow Ireland to become a member, as otherwise it would be open to legal challenge in the courts by plaintiffs of campaigns against doing so.
The operative word in this clause is "may", not "must" or "has to" etc. Thus it probably will not need a referendum as such to delete this clause in order to exit the E.U. by way of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.Other Referendums that were passed, did not have any legislation enacted to give legal effect, e.g.7th Amendment passed 3rd Aug.1979 and the subsequent 8th Amendment 7th Oct.1983. In other words The above clause in Article 29 Para 4 Clause 3 when inserted into the constitution could have sat there without any legislation having been passed and enacted in order for the State to become a Member of the E.E.C.The passing of the article is the facility allowing legislation to be placed on the statute book for signing the treaty of accession, in order for Ireland to become a member.
The Dail can discuss whether or not to leave the E.U. under it's rules, house standing orders, and order of Dail business, with or without reference to said article, of course legal advice is available as to the detail of what has to be followed. Article 29 deals with Internatioal relations,and contains 9 Paragraphs, with Paragraph 4 dealing with E.E.C. E.C. or E.U. Matters.

Fascinating.

[Borat]Not![/Borat]

VinLieger

Seriously?

pickarooney

FFS, can youse not drag up any of the GOOD threads from years back? There's enough boring, humourless, political, angsty ****e on AH as it is.

touts

Just Retired wrote: »

Article 29 Paragraph 4 Clause 3 States :"The State may become a member of the European Atomic Energy Community (established by Treaty signed in Rome on the 25th day of March 1957)". This clause either replaced or was added as new one in order to allow Ireland to become a member, as otherwise it would be open to legal challenge in the courts by plaintiffs of campaigns against doing so.
The operative word in this clause is "may", not "must" or "has to" etc. Thus it probably will not need a referendum as such to delete this clause in order to exit the E.U. by way of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.Other Referendums that were passed, did not have any legislation enacted to give legal effect, e.g.7th Amendment passed 3rd Aug.1979 and the subsequent 8th Amendment 7th Oct.1983. In other words The above clause in Article 29 Para 4 Clause 3 when inserted into the constitution could have sat there without any legislation having been passed and enacted in order for the State to become a Member of the E.E.C.The passing of the article is the facility allowing legislation to be placed on the statute book for signing the treaty of accession, in order for Ireland to become a member.
The Dail can discuss whether or not to leave the E.U. under it's rules, house standing orders, and order of Dail business, with or without reference to said article, of course legal advice is available as to the detail of what has to be followed. Article 29 deals with Internatioal relations,and contains 9 Paragraphs, with Paragraph 4 dealing with E.E.C. E.C. or E.U. Matters.

In favour of leaving the EU.
Long rambling article.
No one really sure what they are talking about.
Been busy for the last two years but now suddenly "Just retired" and has time to come browse boards.....

Boris? Boris is that you? It IS you!!!

PopePalpatine

touts wrote: »

In favour of leaving the EU.
Long rambling article.
No one really sure what they are talking about.
Been busy for the last two years but now suddenly "Just retired" and has time to come browse boards.....

Boris? Boris is that you? It IS you!!!

Offer him some gammon, you can't be too sure.

Grayson

Full story. https://www.joe.ie/news/irexit-launch-dublin-639048

A new eurosceptic political party advocating for Ireland to leave the European Union intends to run candidates in the next general and European elections.

The Irexit Freedom party will be launched next Saturday in Dublin, with the goal of seeing Ireland exit Europe.

Hermann Kelly, head of communications for the campaign, spoke to Cork's 96FM about the new party, explaining why Ireland should follow Britain's example and leave the European Union.

"Because Irish men and women have struggled for centuries to leave a polticial union we were in before; Britain. And that was called the British Empire. And the British Empire as a political union didn't serve our interests because we were 16% in the Westminster Parliament.

"We give them €2.7 billion per year. That means we are paying people in Brussels who we didn't elect and who we can't get rid of to make our laws," the Derry native continued.

"Who out there actually thinks that it's a good deal to pay people we can't elect to make our laws? For me, that's madness."

Nigel Farage is the president of the Irexit campaign – which claims that the EU is "fundamentally anti-democratic" – alongside 42 other MEPs from seven different nations.

"Germans, Italians, Czechs, Slovaks, all different nationalities," Kelly said, referring to the campaign's members.

It also plans to “achieve the consent of the voters in the North” for a united Ireland and “tackle corruption in Government”.

Fellow backers of the party include former Irish ambassador Ray Bassett, UCD Professor of Economics Ray Kinsella and Paddy Manning, an openly gay man who opposes gay marriage, referring to it as "a bare-faced state power grab".

lol. Nigel is the head of the campaign.

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

Full story. https://www.joe.ie/news/irexit-launch-dublin-639048



lol. Nigel is the head of the campaign.

Yep. Herman Kelly is yet another blowhard from Northern Ireland who thinks we give a sheite what he wants or believes in. Born and bred in Londonderry, has written for a few Irish papers, fecks off to Brussels for a decade, helps the UK do themselves up the hole with Brexit and then keeps banging on about Ireland leaving the EU. Gobsheite. He helped diddle the people of Northern Ireland, now he wants to bugger around with the 26 County Republic of Ireland. Go feck yourself you muppet.

Cabaal

Grayson wrote: »

Nigel is the head of the campaign.

We all know what he thinks of the Irish....and our flag!

https://www.herald.ie/news/ukip-use-irish-flag-as-beer-mat-27876343.html

Took ages but found a picture

One British member even wore a leprechaun hat to the parliamentary debate on the preparation of the upcoming European Summit after the results of the Irish referendum

However, these pictures show that while the referendum results were being announced on Friday, the same “friends of Ireland” were using the Irish flag as a tablecloth in Kitty O'Shea's pub in the heart of Brussels.

The UKIP, which is campaigning for Britain to withdraw from the European Union, had supported the anti-treaty campaign run by Libertas in Ireland.

As the No result became inevitable, the large group proceeded to spill beer over the flag and use it as a coaster for cigarettes.

Taytoland

Herman Kelly sounds like a great nationalist. Fully agree and support this new party.

RobertKK

Because it would be a waste of tax payers money.

Look at the mess the UK is in. Turkeys voted for Christmas and all they have now is jobs being plucked away and moved to other EU countries, while their politics is stuffed with such bitterness and lies. Plus the break up of the UK looks likely if Brexit goes ahead.

The Irish government would be stupid to follow the lead of David Cameron who only did the referendum in a bid to kill off UKIP and the Tory Eurosceptics. Cameron never thought the UK would actually leave, and now over two years on and the country is torn apart over that gamble which backfired spectacularly.

badtoro

I fully support a vote on this, asap.

Logic being it'd be the death of dumb threads like this.

lawred2

They'd be lucky to get even 1% of the vote

AudreyHepburn

Because contrary to popular belief they are not that stupid and they know what a disaster a break up of the EU would be.

Cabaal

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Because contrary to popular belief they are not that stupid and they know what a disaster a break up of the EU would be.

I think they just have a dream of having Ireland under the UK's thumb, bring things back to the good old empire days

AudreyHepburn

Cabaal wrote: »

I think they just have a dream of having Ireland under the UK's thumb, bring things back to the good old empire days

Utter rubbish

emo72

Irexit
Urexit
Weallrexit.

riffmongous

Taytoland wrote: »

Herman Kelly sounds like a great nationalist. Fully agree and support this new party.

You might want to read the article again, didn't think you'd be in favour of a UI, I'm pretty surprised Nidgey is

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Utter rubbish

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the irexit party not the gov

Dr. Bre

emo72 wrote: »

Irexit
Urexit
Weallrexit.

General Irection

The Rape of Lucretia

No point going for that part of the equation alone, so the govt will hold back on that one until the moment is right to include as part of the overall Breunion referendum and the dissolution of the republic.

Capt'n Midnight

lawred2 wrote: »

They'd be lucky to get even 1% of the vote

In all seriousness a poll did show that 99% of people in full time education supported Ireland staying in the EU so yeah.

The same poll also showed that support for leaving the EU back then was only about half the support SF get. And SF have been totally about Irish independence since before the founding of the state. The thought of UKIP trying to win over SF voters face to face.

If anything the antics of the bag of ferrets over yonder have made leaving the EU even less attractive.

The UK is the 6th* biggest economy in the world, and they had to pay £4Bn in aid to get a deal with some Southern African countries. That's half what they pay into the EU to get a deal with supposedly on-side Commonwealth countries that currently account for less than 1% of UK exports.


*France, Italy outrank them depending on how/when you measure.


We could dig a ditch along the border to separate us from NI. Then wait for a dark night and tow it out into the Atlantic.

Capt'n Midnight

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

We could dig a ditch along the border to separate us from NI. Then wait for a dark night and tow it out into the Atlantic.

If you organise to get me off the giant floater once we set it adrift, I'll drill the big hole in the middle.

4068ac1elhodqr

They'll have to hold the IreUnity Ref' (25% chance of it taking place before 2021), before considering any exit.

Obviously if it was an option later in 2025 or thereabouts, it wouldn't be practical in any way to join just with the UK.
But if you had Italy, France, Sweden, Denmark, Spain, Netherlands as a new group it might hold more appeal.

You could call it EU 2.eau or the E7, a bit closer to what it was like when Ireland actually joined.

JupiterKid

Ireland would be committing sheer economic suicide if it opted to leave the EU.

Anyone with half a brain cell can see that EU membership completely transformed this country economically and socially and modernised our infrastructure vastly since joining 45 years ago.

In 1973 we had just begun to emerge from the dark days of DeValera's backward, inward looking, church oppressor poor as dirt backwater, thanks to the vision of civil servants like TK Whittaker and 1960s Taoiseach Sean Lemass. But we were still quite poor and underdeveloped by Western standards in 1973, our infrastructure was abysmal and educational attainment was still poor.

The 80s was a bad decade of setbacks and stunted growth and loss of non competitive (formerly protected) industry but since the early 1990s the benefits of EU membership are visible for all to see. A wealthy society, a much more educated, travelled and empowered populace, a world class motorway system , women and LGBT attaining equal rights and a church being out rightly into its place.

Without EU membership, this would alm have hapoened at a much slower pace, and some key ecomonic changes as a result of our membership of the single market would never have happened at all.

Only the crackpots want IREXIT.

suicide_circus

Godspeed to these brave patriots

Capt'n Midnight

The 'Irexit Freedom' party claims it is a 'patriotic', ‘pro-natalist’ group

I thought they might have meant Natal as in a province of South Africa because we're sure to get a trade deal with them, and we might not even have to pay €5 Bn for the privilege like the UK did :rolleyes:

But no, they are going for the Pro-Birth meaning because somehow that's related to Brexit ??



Their other beliefs could even be cynically summed up as
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.*
- Samuel Johnson , April 7, 1775

* Boswell assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism.

Capt'n Midnight

Cabaal wrote: »

I think they just have a dream of having Ireland under the UK's thumb, bring things back to the good old empire days

Before partition there wasn't much difference between NI and here, except they 90% of the heavy industry.

It's not like there's huge differences in the populations or natural resources and now we pretty much have 90% of the industry*. The only substantive difference is that NI has to defer to Westminster.


*If you measure by foreign exports it's closer to 94%

The Rape of Lucretia

The Republic of Ireland, unfortunately, is sleep walking into a Brexit fiasco, and seriously underestimating the damage the cataclysmic meteor hurtling towards it that is Brexit, will do. Just because Brexit is a UK decision, and ostensibly a mega change to only their position, does not mean the 26 can sail blithely on unaffected. Ireland must try to buffer this impact as much as possible. The mood is changing, as more and more understand this, and realise how, paradoxically, and Irexit could be the best of a bad set of options available to it. While privately, Dail and civil service are fully aware of this, taking the discussion to a national, public forum is proving difficult, with much of the population still unable to break free from a blinkered little-Irelander perspective. But there are positive signs this is slowly being eroded.

super_furry

Wonder if any of these clowns have meet with Steve Bannon yet.

dxhound2005

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The mood is changing, as more and more understand this, and realise how, paradoxically, and Irexit could be the best of a bad set of options available to it. While privately, Dail and civil service are fully aware of this,

How did you find out about it?

RobertKK

Irexit is aligning with the UK, Theresa May last year said to the Donald Tuskr that Irish concerns should be ignored as the UK is a far more important country.
Tusk immediately put a stop to that talk and told her to sort out her problems with Ireland Bit stupid of Theresa given the UK is leaving.


https://twitter.com/cellsatwork/status/994667150316130315

I am more than happy being an Irish and European Union citizen. We are stronger working together and it brings so many benefits.

Capt'n Midnight

In 1949 the UK was one of the founding members of what is now the TIR Convention. That means no customs checks on sealed trucks or containers transported through the UK.

Customs checks will only be for stuff going to the UK itself.

Every extra minute of checking per vehicle in Dover adds 10 miles to the queue so anything with TIR on the front is likely to be waved on , on both sides.


So apart from traffic jams Brexit won't hugely affect the flow of goods between here and the rest of the EU.


Stuff sourced in the UK is a different story. A porous border will help. The UK used to have 27,000 troops there and 40% of the vehicle fuel was smuggled or laundered. There's hundreds of crossings, and thousands of JCB's.

One of the revelations of the RHI scandal was that one person was flying in a boiler from Austria to meet the deadline. Yeah that border is going to be real porous.


While stuff sourced in the UK is a different story. There are lots of continental alternatives and lots and lots of "UK" brands aren't made in the UK anymore.

lawred2

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The Republic of Ireland, unfortunately, is sleep walking into a Brexit fiasco, and seriously underestimating the damage the cataclysmic meteor hurtling towards it that is Brexit, will do. Just because Brexit is a UK decision, and ostensibly a mega change to only their position, does not mean the 26 can sail blithely on unaffected. Ireland must try to buffer this impact as much as possible. The mood is changing, as more and more understand this, and realise how, paradoxically, and Irexit could be the best of a bad set of options available to it. While privately, Dail and civil service are fully aware of this, taking the discussion to a national, public forum is proving difficult, with much of the population still unable to break free from a blinkered little-Irelander perspective. But there are positive signs this is slowly being eroded.

Give it a rest ya massive loon

Rejoining the UK is not ever going to happen

Atoms for Peace

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

In 1949 the UK was one of the founding members of what is now the TIR Convention. That means no customs checks on sealed trucks or containers transported through the UK.

Customs checks will only be for stuff going to the UK itself.

Every extra minute of checking per vehicle in Dover adds 10 miles to the queue so anything with TIR on the front is likely to be waved on , on both sides.


So apart from traffic jams Brexit won't hugely affect the flow of goods between here and the rest of the EU.


Stuff sourced in the UK is a different story. A porous border will help. The UK used to have 27,000 troops there and 40% of the vehicle fuel was smuggled or laundered. There's hundreds of crossings, and thousands of JCB's.

One of the revelations of the RHI scandal was that one person was flying in a boiler from Austria to meet the deadline. Yeah that border is going to be real porous.


While stuff sourced in the UK is a different story. There are lots of continental alternatives and lots and lots of "UK" brands aren't made in the UK anymore.

So that's why TIR plates are on trucks and trailers! Another one of life's mysteries solved.

mariaalice

They were on the 9 o clock news, lo and behold nearly all men a large bit of ultra-nationalism and their main concern is controlling the borders. in other words a bunch of racists ultra-nationalists trying to dress it up as something else.

The Rape of Lucretia

mariaalice wrote: »

They were on the 9 o clock news, lo and behold nearly all men a large bit of ultra-nationalism and their main concern is controlling the borders. in other words a bunch of racists ultra-nationalists trying to dress it up as something else.

Thats a bit prejudiced in itself though isnt it ?

Irexit it nothing on it own though, no more than Breunion. Its only when the two are combined that the picture snaps into focus, and the combination, as a genuine option is visible. Its a scenario that would be supported by a lot of northern republicans - a position unthinkable even 10 years ago.

dxhound2005

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Thats a bit prejudiced in itself though isnt it ?

Irexit it nothing on it own though, no more than Breunion. Its only when the two are combined that the picture snaps into focus, and the combination, as a genuine option is visible. Its a scenario that would be supported by a lot of northern republicans - a position unthinkable even 10 years ago.

The UK could regain Ireland. But it is a lot more likely to lose Scotland.

The Rape of Lucretia

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The UK could regain Ireland. But it is a lot more likely to lose Scotland.

Possibly. But Ireland rejoining would in itself reduce the likelyhood of Scotland leaving. The 26 would add to the counterweight to England, and set the template for genuine devolved government. Scotland would be delighted to see the republic unite the islands.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Didn't read the rest of the thread but I think I know the answer.

Because that would be a really stupid idea.

Sardonicat

Why is my country being referred to as "the 26"?

dxhound2005

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Possibly. But Ireland rejoining would in itself reduce the likelyhood of Scotland leaving. The 26 would add to the counterweight to England, and set the template for genuine devolved government. Scotland would be delighted to see the republic unite the islands.

England is not interested in genuine devolution. Otherwise it would recognise the anti Brexit majority in Scotland and NI in the referendum.

lawred2

Sardonicat wrote: »

Why is my country being referred to as "the 26"?

He's been eschewing the same toss on a number of threads recently. Best ignored.

Del.Monte

mariaalice wrote: »

They were on the 9 o clock news, lo and behold nearly all men a large bit of ultra-nationalism and their main concern is controlling the borders. in other words a bunch of racists ultra-nationalists trying to dress it up as something else.

How is wanting proper border controls racist?

Lefty Bicek

It would be a waste of time, because the appetite is not there for it.

Irexit would be a disaster because this is not a serious nation, and the Irish are not a serious people. Unfortunately.

Nevertheless, the EU is a rotten corrupt empire and I hope I live to see three things -

1. Ireland populated by people who don't childishly need the approval, or economic sweeties of our so-called 'European partners'.

2. The UK prospering in consequence of Brexit.

3. The EU project fail.

lawred2

Cool