Why will the Govt not hold an "Irexit" referendum?

Lefty Bicek

eagle eye wrote: »

Irish people don't like change for the most part.
Trump's visit might get things going on this front. I can just imagine him announcing something big with the UK just before he arrives and then telling us all that we would be way better off being involved in a deal with the UK and USA than the rest of Europe.

Your first statement is odd, in a way, considering the radical changes we have as a country fought for, won, and embraced in the last decade alone.

If Trump did make that claim, and make it plausibly - Irish people would still reject it.

In spite of the fact that historically, culturally, in fact every way worth mentioning, we are far closer to the US and UK than we ever have been to the European mainland. Or ever will be, perhaps.

By now, we know too much about how the smaller countries of the EU fare when they step out of line.

First Up

Lefty Bicek wrote:

Two cheers for democracy !

And three cheers for representative democracy (that's the version that works) where you elect people to take informed decisions.

Cabaal

eagle eye wrote: »

For those who don't want to leave, like Fine Gael, it'd be smart to have a vote on it now. I don't think there is any chance of a large vote for leaving.
Irish people don't like change for the most part.

Yeah because we weren't the first country in the world to make marriage for gay and lesbian couples legal by popular vote.

We didn't just overturn a previously religious lobbied constitution amendment back in May.

Oh yeah, we hate change.
:rolleyes:

We like change, we just as a country have learned to go with change that benefits us rather then hurts us.

Trump's visit might get things going on this front. I can just imagine him announcing something big with the UK just before he arrives and then telling us all that we would be way better off being involved in a deal with the UK and USA than the rest of Europe.

This nonsense is comedy gold,
for anyone that thinks the UK will be ok because of the USA for the few years left with Trump rather then dealing with its direct neighbours is clueless.

For anyone that thinks Ireland would be better joning the UK in leaving EU and the train wreck that is brexit must be a fan of punching themselves in the face.

Cabaal

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

By now, we know too much about how the smaller countries of the EU fare when they step out of line.

You keep making claims about EU bullying UK and this sort of stuff,
however you've been asked several times to back up your claims.

You've not done so.

It's almost like your claims are a lie

The Rape of Lucretia

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

In spite of the fact that historically, culturally, in fact every way worth mentioning, we are far closer to the US and UK than we ever have been to the European mainland. Or ever will be, perhaps.

The US???
Nonsense.
We are close to the EU, in so far as there is such a common thing with which to make a comparison than we are to the US. Language and consuming their TV is a very superficial alignment.
But virtually identical twins with Great Britain. Breunion would be far from the trauma some think it might be. In culture we are indeed identical in so many ways, musically, sport, tv, newpapers, shops, eating habits and traditions. The list is endless - but then it should be, we were once truly one and the same.
What might be cited as differences, are vert slight or lower than those found anyway in larger countries with regional variations.

dxhound2005

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Ah, indeed. 'The People's Vote'.

We didn't get the result we wanted the first time, let's give them another chance to vote correctly.

Where have we heard that before ?

From the Brexiteers. The UK already voted to remain in the EU, but the Brexiteers never accepted that democratic decision.

And if the vote had not gone their way, they would have been back to demand another vote until they got their way. Farage and Johnson would not have accepted a Remain vote.

MonkeyTennis

Im sorry .. Im a bit tired and hungover. Let me get this right. We are literally watching the ****show on our doorstep that is Brexit and some people want to join in. .. Just so we are all clear here. We want to join the ****show?

Lefty Bicek

Cabaal wrote: »

You keep making claims about EU bullying UK

No, I didn't make any such claim.

however you've been asked several times to back up your claims.

No, I haven't been asked to do that once.

Back to the start of the thread for you, sunshine !

Cabaal

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

Im sorry .. Im a bit tired and hungover. Let me get this right. We are literally watching the ****show on our doorstep that is Brexit and some people want to join in. .. Just so we are all clear here. We want to join the ****show?

Thats exactly what they want,
That and Ireland joining the UK,

Its hilarious,

Lefty Bicek

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

Im sorry .. Im a bit tired and hungover. Let me get this right. We are literally watching the ****show on our doorstep that is Brexit and some people want to join in. .. Just so we are all clear here. We want to join the ****show?

Go back to bed.

MonkeyTennis

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Go back to bed.

Nah .. your mums knackered



*BOOM*

Lefty Bicek

dxhound2005 wrote: »

From the Brexiteers. The UK already voted to remain in the EU, but the Brexiteers never accepted that democratic decision.

And if the vote had not gone their way, they would have been back to demand another vote until they got their way. Farage and Johnson would not have accepted a Remain vote.

They would have been free to campaign. It's still a democracy.

The Brexiteers did not facilitate the vote. Cameron did. Silly man, silly stunt.

super_furry

As laughably bad as they are, Breunion and Brejoining don't go far enough. We need a word to fully and accurately describe the supine cowardice of those who would crawl back on their bellies to beg at the feet of the Brits once again - Bretraying. Bretaking the soup. Bregging.

dxhound2005

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

Im sorry .. Im a bit tired and hungover. Let me get this right. We are literally watching the ****show on our doorstep that is Brexit and some people want to join in. .. Just so we are all clear here. We want to join the ****show?

Just to update you. We are winning the thread by 95% to 5%. But they are claiming to represent "the Irish people".

Cabaal

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

They would have been free to campaign. It's still a democracy.
.

So by your logic people are free to campaign and vote on the final deal and if they don't agree remain in the EU?
After all, its still a democracy right.....

Or is it only ok to vote on stuff when its something you want?

Billy86

Cabaal wrote: »

Considering it would involve:
- Loss of trade agreements
- Scrapping of prev agreed regulations that cover everything from clean air to employment and mobile roaming
- Scrapping of energy inter connector agreements, telecoms agreements

It would end in a manner that would negatively effect Ireland, but by us leaving it would be our decision to scrap all these things and by doing so it would have a negative impact on our economy, jobs, investment etc

But of course, you continue to blame the EU....after all thats what you are doing with Brexit
:rolleyes:

You also left out needing to make new trade agreements with just about everyone we currently trade with as part of the EU. Only we wouldn't be making these trade agreements as part of the most powerful economic bloc in the entire world, we would be making these as a nation of under 5mn with hardly any bargaining power and a potentially already-devastated economy by the time negotiations began, as a lack of EU access would likely see a good few of the large multinationals immediately move to somewhere within the EU.

4068ac1elhodqr

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The UK already voted to remain in the EU, but the Brexiteers never accepted that democratic decision.

Was this in 2016, that they voted to remain?

Irexit isn't an option anytime soon, but who knows what state Europe will be in come another 5-10yrs+

Assuming any exit equates to only joining the uk is a falsehood. Tthe 'UK' won't exist after Scotland leaves anyway.

If Ire ever left (<7% chance to leave next), it will only be after other countries with much bigger grievance and chances of leaving do so beforehand. Such as Italy (33% to be the next to leave), Greece (20% to be next), Austria, Sweden, Denmark, Austria etc.

Thus any new NW-EU v2.0 would likely include other ex-members of the 27. It might (in 2025-30) even look a bit more like the Europe that Ire actually joined in 1973.

Lefty Bicek

Cabaal wrote: »

So by your logic people are free to campaign and vote on the final deal and if they don't agree remain in the EU?
After all, its still a democracy right.....

Or is it only ok to vote on stuff when its something you want?

By my logic, people are free to campaign.

The whole Brexit show is currently being depicted as a complete clusterfúck, which it is at the moment, but what about in five years time?
If there is any need for an Irexit supporting party it may be after the dust has cleared from the Brexit tornado.

If Brexit is a disaster for the UK, we'll never hear about this again, but we do need to consider what to do if it is a success!

Lefty Bicek

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Just to update you. We are winning the thread by 95% to 5%. But they are claiming to represent "the Irish people".

'We are winning the thread...' ! ! !

:D:D

Cabaal

Billy86 wrote: »

You also left out needing to make new trade agreements with just about everyone we currently trade with as part of the EU. Only we wouldn't be making these trade agreements as part of the most powerful economic bloc in the entire world, we would be making these as a nation of under 5mn with hardly any bargaining power and a potentially already-devastated economy by the time negotiations began, as a lack of EU access would likely see a good few of the large multinationals immediately move to somewhere within the EU.

I left it out because I thought its too bloody obvious to explain, but you have a point by explaining it. some people are clueless and don't understand the negative impact of such a silly decision.

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

The whole Brexit show is currently being depicted as a complete clusterfúck, which it is at the moment, but what about in five years time?
If there is any need for an Irexit supporting party it may be after the dust has cleared from the Brexit tornado.

If Brexit is a disaster for the UK, we'll never hear about this again, but we do need to consider what to do if it is a success!

...recover from a major shock, with the aid of alcohol and drugs for starters.

dxhound2005

Deleted User wrote: »

The whole Brexit show is currently being depicted as a complete clusterfúck, which it is at the moment, but what about in five years time?
If there is any need for an Irexit supporting party it may be after the dust has cleared from the Brexit tornado.

If Brexit is a disaster for the UK, we'll never hear about this again, but we do need to consider what to do if it is a success!

We can leave at any time. We can join the UK if they will have us at any time.

Cabaal

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

By my logic, people are free to campaign.

and if by doing so there is a vote held.
you'd support democracy taking place even if they rejected any deal and remained in EU as part of that outcome?

After all, democracy...right?

Lefty Bicek

dxhound2005 wrote: »

We can leave at any time. We can join the UK if they will have us at any time.

We can have breakfast in the Savoy at any time, if, if, if...

Why are you being so fatuous ?

4068ac1elhodqr

Deleted User wrote: »

The whole Brexit show is currently being depicted as a complete clusterfúck, which it is at the moment, but what about in five years time?
If there is any need for an Irexit supporting party it may be after the dust has cleared from the Brexit tornado.

If Brexit is a disaster for the UK, we'll never hear about this again, but we do need to consider what to do if it is a success!

Yes (at least) 5yrs, some folks sound like it's already taken place.

However initial signs of diplomacy aren't great, they sent a warship to buzz the Chinese(ish) Islands whilst discussing a trade deal with the worlds 2nd largest economy, oops.

Trump at one stage offered to quadrouple trade with the uk, but any deal would of course be in the dealmakers favour.

I'd expect Italy to leave in about 5yrs, would they join the UK in an anglo-italian setup?

Cabaal

dxhound2005 wrote: »

We can leave at any time. We can join the UK if they will have us at any time.

They don't even want the portion of Ireland they have right now, :P

800 years of people dead fighting for freedom from the English and we have people in this thread wanting to join the UK, you couldn't make it up.

Thankfully we as a country would never go with such a silly idea

4068ac1elhodqr

Cabaal wrote: »

They don't even want the portion of Ireland they have right now, :P

Somewhat true, and they'll also have to court back the 'land of robert the bruce' back into their bosom, as they'll be gone during the meantime.

Cabaal

Cabaal wrote: »

They don't even want the portion of Ireland they have right now, :P

800 years of people dead fighting for freedom from the English and we have people in this thread wanting to join the UK, you couldn't make it up.

Thankfully we as a country would never go with such a silly idea

Yes, a country that fought for independence for centuries then joins a federation that has taken away many of the privileges of independence that was fought for 100 years ago.

Rhineshark

Because it's an incredibly stupid idea with little popular support. We don't need to enthusiastically ape *everything* Britain does, especially when manifestly bat**** crazy.

MonkeyTennis

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Just to update you. We are winning the thread by 95% to 5%. But they are claiming to represent "the Irish people".

Cheers. Pint ?

Lefty Bicek

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, a country that fought for independence for centuries then joins a federation that has taken away many of the privileges of independence that was fought for 100 years ago.

In a nutshell.

MonkeyTennis

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, a country that fought for independence for centuries then joins a federation that has taken away many of the privileges of independence that was fought for 100 years ago.

Name 1

The Rape of Lucretia

Giancarlo Scrawny Illness wrote: »

Was this in 2016, that they voted to remain?

Irexit isn't an option anytime soon, but who knows what state Europe will be in come another 5-10yrs+

Assuming any exit equates to only joining the uk is a falsehood. Tthe 'UK' won't exist after Scotland leaves anyway.

If Ire ever left (<7% chance to leave next), it will only be after other countries with much bigger grievance and chances of leaving do so beforehand. Such as Italy (33% to be the next to leave), Greece (20% to be next), Austria, Sweden, Denmark, Austria etc.

Ireland has a different dynamic though than thd ones in your stats, the Breunion option, which makes it much more than a simple stay/leave the EU. Particularly in a post Brexit, damage limitation context. No other EU member faces that dilemma.

dxhound2005

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, a country that fought for independence for centuries then joins a federation that has taken away many of the privileges of independence that was fought for 100 years ago.

But there will be no need to take up arms to gain independence. Just a vote of the people.

Lefty Bicek

dxhound2005 wrote: »

But there will be no need to take up arms to gain independence. Just a vote of the people.

So we are not independent. Thanks for confirming that.

Cabaal

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, a country that fought for independence for centuries then joins a federation that has taken away many of the privileges of independence that was fought for 100 years ago.

I'm interested,
Name the privileges that we have fought for and lost?

Capt'n Midnight

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm moving next month, so I am cancelling my gym membership that I have here in Dublin.

When cancelling, I will be asking for some of my membership money back. And to be allowed to take a treadmill, some dumbbells, a cycling machine and the sauna with me. I will also be requesting to be allowed use the gym on occasion, but only when I see fit. I will want discounts that they offer on some classes, the pool and on physiotherapy because they offer these to their members and I will not be bullied into paying the full amount that non-members have to. I will be demanding my own personal locker but do not wish to pay the rental fees for it and will insist that nobody is allowed to use any lockers in a four-locker radius around and occasional security checks by staff on it it, as I will not be a member and so do not want to risk members trying to open my locker when I am not there.

Can you please get in touch with my gym for me, to demand they stop bullying me like this? As you can see I am clearly the victim in all of this.

You are also forgetting the bit about the rules committee that all the members abide by. Instead you want a new committee, just for you, where you get a 50:50 say.


Or the bit where you've been caught donating half a years existing membership to a different run down gym run by your old classmates. This gym has hardly any facilities, and your mates haven't even confirmed they'll let you in , even though they really needed the cash.

When I say classmates, you were the bully who used to take all their pocket money.

MonkeyTennis

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

So we are not independent. Thanks for confirming that.

Whos 'we'?

super_furry

Have to wonder if those people advocating a return to English rule are actually Irish or is there some kind of dodgy bot type messing going on.

Cabaal

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Ireland has a different dynamic though than thd ones in your stats, the Breunion option, which makes it much more than a simple stay/leave the EU. Particularly in a post Brexit, damage limitation context. No other EU member faces that dilemma.

Can I just make a suggestion,
Please....please keep going on about joining the UK.

It'll do so much harm to the very idea of Irexit.

Lefty Bicek

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

Whos 'we'?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108034454&postcount=287

Shenshen

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

So we are not independent. Thanks for confirming that.

Define independence.

weldoninhio

noodler wrote: »

And risk ignorant people voting based on whatever lies they read in social media and be in the same situation as the UK find itself?

Uncertain business climate, political paralysis and loss of investment and a for what?

They'd go back if they could.

The only benefit our populace would have with a vote here is that there would be no "empire nostalgia" motivation.

An ignorant persons vote is just as valid as yours. What a condescending attitude.

Capt'n Midnight

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, a country that fought for independence for centuries then joins a federation that has taken away many of the privileges of independence that was fought for 100 years ago.

Even Albania is trying to join the EU.

Lefty Bicek

weldoninhio wrote: »

An ignorant persons vote is just as valid as yours. What a condescending attitude.

Indeed.

MonkeyTennis

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108034454&postcount=287

Name one thing the Eu has done that infringed on your rights?

Or if you want to play silly buggers less independent?

weldoninhio

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Ah, indeed. 'The People's Vote'.

We didn't get the result we wanted the first time, let's give them another chance to vote correctly.

Where have we heard that before ?

It’s a very EU way of looking at a vote.

dxhound2005

Giancarlo Scrawny Illness wrote: »

Was this in 2016, that they voted to remain?

Irexit isn't an option anytime soon, but who knows what state Europe will be in come another 5-10yrs+

Assuming any exit equates to only joining the uk is a falsehood. Tthe 'UK' won't exist after Scotland leaves anyway.

If Ire ever left (<7% chance to leave next), it will only be after other countries with much bigger grievance and chances of leaving do so beforehand. Such as Italy (33% to be the next to leave), Greece (20% to be next), Austria, Sweden, Denmark, Austria etc.

Thus any new NW-EU v2.0 would likely include other ex-members of the 27. It might (in 2025-30) even look a bit more like the Europe that Ire actually joined in 1973.

I'm going for a Eurexit. Revert back to two Germanys, Soviet Union, Yugoslavia. Things were so much better then. Sorry Polish people.

Cabaal

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I'm going for a Eurexit. Revert back to two Germanys, Soviet Union, Yugoslavia. Things were so much better then. Sorry Polish people.

Oh the good old days,

People make such a big deal our of peace as well, we might as well end nice peace time period we've had in Europe too.

The EU by use of trade made war unthinkable, after all with such well connected trade links with other country's you need to talk to your neighbours daily. Here we have people trying to undo that.