Why will the Govt not hold an "Irexit" referendum?

4068ac1elhodqr

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Ireland has a different dynamic though than thd ones in your stats, the Breunion option, which makes it much more than a simple stay/leave the EU. Particularly in a post Brexit, damage limitation context. No other EU member faces that dilemma.

The push to suggest 'Breunion' is a falsehood, and even disinformation.

In reality there are x5 other countries more likely to leave the EU than Ire is.
Thus it won't be a Breunion, it will be a BreIreItaGreHunSwe union that would be on the cards.

A new EU7 of sorts.

If you have 6 leavers, before any chance of Irexit, then the dynamics will indeed be different to what's being suggested here.

weldoninhio

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

Name 1

Don’t we have to run our budgets by our masters before we can implement them??

Lefty Bicek

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I'm going for a Eurexit. Revert back to two Germanys, Soviet Union, Yugoslavia. Things were so much better then. Sorry Polish people.

Many Polish people would soon tell you where to put your 'Sorry'.

And there isn't much you could tell them about Germany, East, West or otherwise.

The Poles have been really a thorn in the side of the German commentariat, who are absolutely puzzled when their 'solidarity' (money) is not reciprocated by unquestioning acceptance of Merkel's 'we can' insanity.

Not everyone is as obsequious as 95% of you are.

4068ac1elhodqr

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I'm going for a Eurexit. Revert back to two Germanys, Soviet Union, Yugoslavia. Things were so much better then. Sorry Polish people.

Well maybe the 1973 Europe that Ire voted to join, but yes add in Poland if possible, they're a great bunch of lads.

Would also need somewhere in the Med for the holidays, maybe just take Ibiza.

dxhound2005

The history of Europe recently has been the breakup of countries, except German reunification. Next to go will be the UK.

Billy86

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

You are also forgetting the bit about the rules committee that all the members abide by. Instead you want a new committee, just for you, where you get a 50:50 say.


Or the bit where you've been caught donating half a years existing membership to a different run down gym run by your old classmates. This gym has hardly any facilities, and your mates haven't even confirmed they'll let you in , even though they really needed the cash.

When I say classmates, you were the bully who used to take all their pocket money.

They never wanted that pocket money and I spent it better in the first place. You can imagine my justified reaction when they had the gall to ask for some of the chocolate bars I had accumulated for myself; I earned those chocolate bars myself.

This is even worse than the time the teacher asked for a vote of hands on if we should watch a movie or play a game on the last day of term - 18 others in the class voted for a game, yet 5 other classmates and I were ignored even though we wanted to watch a movie. Democracy is dead.

dxhound2005

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Many Polish people would soon tell you where to put your 'Sorry'.

And there isn't much you could tell them about Germany, East, West or otherwise.

The Poles have been really a thorn in the side of the German commentariat, who are absolutely puzzled when their 'solidarity' (money) is not reciprocated by unquestioning acceptance of Merkel's 'we can' insanity.

Not everyone is as obsequious as 95% of you are.

Were you a Jaruzelski supporter?

donspeekinglesh

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Kate Lawlor (formerly Bopp) - campaigned strongly against marriage equality and repealing 8th - extreme anti feminist

Did she get a divorce? Didn't think that was the sort of thing she's approve of.

MikeyTaylor

I'm for Breunion.

4068ac1elhodqr

MikeyTaylor wrote: »

I'm for Breunion.

What about the realistic option of Bre-Ire-Ita-Gre-Hun-Swe-union?
in 2025-2030.

Lefty Bicek

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Were you a Jaruzelski supporter?

As much as we are all great advocates of democracy here, I think being in sixth class in primary school in Ireland disenfranchised me somewhat from that period of Polish history.

But wow, you know a Polish name, and you spelt it correctly. Kudos.

Billy86

Giancarlo Scrawny Illness wrote: »

What about the realistic option of Bre-Ire-Ita-Gre-Hun-Swe-union?
in 2025-2030.

Yeah.... no.

I'm actually not for Bre-union, certainly not for a while. They voted to leave so they can leave and see how it works for them. If they want back in by say 2025, put it under consideration for some point maybe in the early 2030s.

dxhound2005

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

As much as we are all great advocates of democracy here, I think being in sixth class in primary school in Ireland disenfranchised me somewhat from that period of Polish history.

But wow, you know a Polish name, and you spelt it correctly. Kudos.

I remember the Prague Spring as well.

Capt'n Midnight

Shenshen wrote: »

Define independence.

Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose

MonkeyTennis

weldoninhio wrote: »

Don’t we have to run our budgets by our masters before we can implement them??

No .. it would take zero effort to find that out

davedanon

The notion of 'Irexit' is an insanity. Brexit is not going to be anything but a disaster for the UK. The trade deals they think they're going to be able to strike are nothing but a fantasy. The world's biggest trading block is on their doorstep, but they're leaving that club by their own volition. Countries trade the most with their nearest neighbours. It is an immutable law of economics. It's why we are the UK and Ireland are such important mutual trading partners, and why Brexit is such bad news for us, potentially. If they crash out with no deal, and there is no open border arrangement, which is a very real possibility, that could be disastrous for us. Our agri-business could be devastated, and other markets for our food, such as the EU, would take time to develop. Other industries would have to make alternative shipping and transport arrangements too, if customs problems manifested themselves with the UK landbridge, which would add to the cost of both imports and exports for us.

The UK think that trade riches are just around the corner for them, but that is just an absurd fantasy the brexiteers are peddling. They don't even have any concrete plans to realise them. It's like there is just a hand-waving dismissal of the notion of trade difficulties: "oh it'll be fine, we'll strike deals with America, and India, and......Japan. But India, America and Japan are all trading with their nearest neighbours, like everyone else. Why bother with a medium-to-small-sized market a couple of thousand miles away? America does most business with Canada, despite all Trump's poisonous rhetoric towards them. Next? Mexico. His wall nonsense only fools the deplorables, his ignorant and racist base.

Besides everything else, Trump is manifestly unstable and utterly unreliable. He is quite capable of changing his mind on a whim on any topic whatsoever, no matter the seriousness or the gravity. The vast majority of the British public loathe him, and the odds of him taking umbrage at something - like the Trump balloon - and cancelling whatever 'deal' he had promised Theresa May, are similar to the 'winning thread percentage' here - about 95%. In the unlikely scenario that trade deals do materialise, there are all sorts of issues that would arise out of it, such as food standards and quality. America's chlorine-washed chicken being just one example. The EU has a vast regime of food-standards regulations (one of the benefits it delivers for its members that no-one ever talks about) that ensure premium quality in both import and export arenas. None of these would apply with any deal the UK could strike elsewhere. The quality of the food they import - and they import the vast bulk of their food rather than produce it themselves - would plummet dramatically.

There is no need to wonder about what might happen with Brexit in a few years time. In five or ten years down the road, it will continue to be what it will be right from the get-go. A complete and total disaster. As reliant on the UK as a trading partner as we are, we have to face the facts. Leaving the EU would be a calamity, a catastrophe that would dwarf whatever economic dents Brexit will put in our economy. The prospect of us on the outside of the EU with our noses pressed up against the glass just doesn't bear thinking about.

The notion of 'Irexit' isn't on the national agenda here. It's not even on the horizon. And thank the deity of your choice for that.

4068ac1elhodqr

Billy86 wrote: »

Yeah.... no.

I'm actually not for Bre-union, certainly not for a while.

But there is more likely hood of Bre-Ire-Ita-Gre-Hun-Swe-union, before there is a BreIre-union.

I.e. There would be 5 other countries that might leave before Ireland ever would.

noodler

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

No .. it would take zero effort to find that out

Indeed.

Commission can give an opinion.


It isn't the make up of the budget. Its just the broad parameters, don't spend too much, don't rely on transient revenues etc.

Again, takes a bit of work to make that sound like a bad thing.

MonkeyTennis

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

Name 1

Currency, ability to govern fishing grounds, border controls.
Need I go on.

Billy86

Giancarlo Scrawny Illness wrote: »

But there is more likely hood of Bre-Ire-Ita-Gre-Hun-Swe-union, before there is a BreIre-union.

I.e. There would be 5 other countries that might leave before Ireland ever would.

No, there isn't.

There is more likelihood for a Bre-union over the next 20-25 years than there is for Ireland leaving the EU alone in those same 20-25 years, never mind the other 5 also leaving, and then all of them forming a union of their own that they could agree on and make worthwhile for all members.

Billy86

Deleted User wrote: »

Currency, ability to govern fishing grounds, border controls.
Need I go on.

If only the EU allowed EU member states to use a currency other than the Euro, eh?

Capt'n Midnight

Cabaal wrote: »

800 years of ... fighting for freedom from the English and we have people in this thread wanting to join the UK, you couldn't make it up.

848 years, 4 months, 8 days and a few hours, but who's counting.

Also the demographics suggest that 200 years later we'll get back to pre-famine population levels in the 2040's. But not if you exclude immigrants.

ELM327

There is no rational reason for Ireland to leave the EU.
If we leave the EU we may as well be all living on Rockall for the amount of jobs and economic activity there will be.

dxhound2005

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I remember the Prague Spring as well.

I remember crossing the border between Czechoslovakia and West Germany in 1989, very interesting times.

Capt'n Midnight

Giancarlo Scrawny Illness wrote: »

Assuming any exit equates to only joining the uk is a falsehood. Tthe 'UK' won't exist after Scotland leaves anyway.

The United Kingdom of Little Britain* and Wales ?




*An Bhreatain Bheag

4068ac1elhodqr

Billy86 wrote: »

No, there isn't.

There is more likelihood for a Bre-union over the next 20-25 years than there is for Ireland leaving the EU alone in those same 20-25 years, never mind the other 5 also leaving, and then all of them forming a union of their own that they could agree on and make worthwhile for all members.

Denmark or Sweden are also neighbours of the UK, but without all the troubled past that goes along with it that Ire has (well except for the jolly viking chaps).

If these other countries leave the EU before Ireland ever would, they will seek partnerships. the UK naturally would be their 1st potential trade partner.

It would be a 'gradual' union of sorts, but all would take place before Ire would ever choose to leave.

smokingman

Says a lot that most of the irexiteers are trump fans and basic troglodytes.
Trot on

4068ac1elhodqr

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The United Kingdom of Little Britain* and Wales ?

Yes, a Union of Eng & Wales (maybe NI depending too on a Unity ref).

They may choose to call it something else, even if it's still classed as the UK it may need a new flag and will essentially be a different entity that what was before.

ELM327

smokingman wrote: »

Says a lot that most of the irexiteers are trump fans and basic troglodytes.
Trot on

As a Trump fan I am completely and 100% opposed to Ireland exiting the EU.
I refuse to use the moniker as it offers credibility to the new party.
Anyone that supports this exit strategy would do well to watch the seventh stage of hell that our nearest neighbour has imposed on itself

MonkeyTennis

Deleted User wrote: »

Currency, ability to govern fishing grounds, border controls.
Need I go on.

ehm yes.

4068ac1elhodqr

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Also the demographics suggest that 200 years later we'll get back to pre-famine population levels in the 2040's.

Lets hope there is affordable housing by then, chances might be slim.

MonkeyTennis

ELM327 wrote: »

As a Trump fan I am completely and 100% opposed to Ireland exiting the EU.
I refuse to use the moniker as it offers credibility to the new party.
Anyone that supports this exit strategy would do well to watch the seventh stage of hell that our nearest neighbour has imposed on itself

*faints*

Lefty Bicek

davedanon wrote: »

The notion of 'Irexit' is an insanity. Brexit is not going to be anything but a disaster for the UK. The trade deals they think they're going to be able to strike are nothing but a fantasy. The world's biggest trading block is on their doorstep, but they're leaving that club by their own volition. Countries trade the most with their nearest neighbours. It is an immutable law of economics. It's why we are the UK and Ireland are such important mutual trading partners, and why Brexit is such bad news for us, potentially. If they crash out with no deal, and there is no open border arrangement, which is a very real possibility, that could be disastrous for us. Our agri-business could be devastated, and other markets for our food, such as the EU, would take time to develop. Other industries would have to make alternative shipping and transport arrangements too, if customs problems manifested themselves with the UK landbridge, which would add to the cost of both imports and exports for us.

The UK think that trade riches are just around the corner for them, but that is just an absurd fantasy the brexiteers are peddling. They don't even have any concrete plans to realise them. It's like there is just a hand-waving dismissal of the notion of trade difficulties: "oh it'll be fine, we'll strike deals with America, and India, and......Japan. But India, America and Japan are all trading with their nearest neighbours, like everyone else. Why bother with a medium-to-small-sized market a couple of thousand miles away? America does most business with Canada, despite all Trump's poisonous rhetoric towards them. Next? Mexico. His wall nonsense only fools the deplorables, his ignorant and racist base.

Besides everything else, Trump is manifestly unstable and utterly unreliable. He is quite capable of changing his mind on a whim on any topic whatsoever, no matter the seriousness or the gravity. The vast majority of the British public loathe him, and the odds of him taking umbrage at something - like the Trump balloon - and cancelling whatever 'deal' he had promised Theresa May, are similar to the 'winning thread percentage' here - about 95%. In the unlikely scenario that trade deals do materialise, there are all sorts of issues that would arise out of it, such as food standards and quality. America's chlorine-washed chicken being just one example. The EU has a vast regime of food-standards regulations (one of the benefits it delivers for its members that no-one ever talks about) that ensure premium quality in both import and export arenas. None of these would apply with any deal the UK could strike elsewhere. The quality of the food they import - and they import the vast bulk of their food rather than produce it themselves - would plummet dramatically.

There is no need to wonder about what might happen with Brexit in a few years time. In five or ten years down the road, it will continue to be what it will be right from the get-go. A complete and total disaster. As reliant on the UK as a trading partner as we are, we have to face the facts. Leaving the EU would be a calamity, a catastrophe that would dwarf whatever economic dents Brexit will put in our economy. The prospect of us on the outside of the EU with our noses pressed up against the glass just doesn't bear thinking about.

The notion of 'Irexit' isn't on the national agenda here. It's not even on the horizon. And thank the deity of your choice for that.

It is not an immutable law of economics that countries must be in the same club for trade to take place.

Politicians and members of the 'club' obstructing trade with tariffs, failure to reach agreement, threats, and a general attitude of spite... that is politics. Not trade.

Capt'n Midnight

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The United Kingdom of Little Britain* and Wales ?




*An Bhreatain Bheag

The united kingdom of Wales & Wales?

MikeyTaylor

ELM327 wrote: »

As a Trump fan I am completely and 100% opposed to Ireland exiting the EU.
I refuse to use the moniker as it offers credibility to the new party.
Anyone that supports this exit strategy would do well to watch the seventh stage of hell that our nearest neighbour has imposed on itself

Did he entertain you on the Apprentice with his nasty comments?

davedanon

Deleted User wrote: »

Currency, ability to govern fishing grounds, border controls.
Need I go on.

Er, yes, you do.

You want to go back to the Punt? AHAHAHAHAHA.

We had the option to dictate policy regarding our fishing industry. We chose to concentrate on agriculture. WE CHOSE THIS COURSE.

Border controls? The lack of border controls are an integral part of the EU's success.

Cabaal

Deleted User wrote: »

Currency, ability to govern fishing grounds, border controls.
Need I go on.

- Curreny, it was our choice. we could have opted out
- Fishing grounds, we also get access to areas of the EU we wouldn't otherwise
- Border controls, you want free trade and movement within EU thats the trade off. however we can and do check people entering our country via air and sea and we do stop people entering...just like the UK can and does.

Of course if we want borders back we'll have to start with NI, we all know that was an interesting time. Nothing more fun then a bunch of school kids going on a school tour to the north and armed soldiers bordering the bus and searching bags!

Billy86

Giancarlo Scrawny Illness wrote: »

Denmark or Sweden are also neighbours of the UK, but without all the troubled past that goes along with it that Ire has (well except for the jolly viking chaps).

If these other countries leave the EU before Ireland ever would, they will seek partnerships. the UK naturally would be their 1st potential trade partner.

It would be a 'gradual' union of sorts, but all would take place before Ire would ever choose to leave.

Neighbours? You do know London is over 1,400km from Stockholm correct? It's literally the same distance as it is from London to Budapest; none of those three are neighbours - Dublin to London by comparison is 450km. You might as well be claiming Ireland are neighbours with Morocco and Austria are neighbours with Tunisia at that rate.

davedanon

davedanon wrote: »

Er, yes, you do.

You want to go back to the Punt? AHAHAHAHAHA.

We had the option to dictate policy regarding our fishing industry. We chose to concentrate on agriculture. WE CHOSE THIS COURSE.

Border controls? The lack of border controls are an integral part of the EU's success.

The freedom for large multinationals to "cherry pick" amongst the EU countries where they can get the biggest bang for their buck, this strategy has really worked out well for Greece. It also worked well for Ireland when the money was flooding in from German pension funds and creating the biggest boom/bust in Irish financial history.


Wages in Ireland are being kept lower than they should be because of the influx of cheap labour and rental costs are too high in most of the cities for the same reason.


The EU is a really great club to be in if you're one of the beneficiaries of their policies.

davedanon

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

It is not an immutable law of economics that countries must be in the same club for trade to take place.

Politicians and members of the 'club' obstructing trade with tariffs, failure to reach agreement, threats, and a general attitude of spite... that is politics. Not trade.

I didn't say that though, did I. The immutability relates to physical proximity, not trading 'clubs'. But feel free to misrepresent what other say.

And a 'club' has one rule for its members, one rule for everyone else. That's what makes it a club. The UK wants to have its cake and eat it: leave the club, but still have the benefits. It's patently illogical. The EU won't give Britain a deal better then what they already have. It won't even be comparable. It will be worse. Because otherwise, what's to stop other EU countries from following suit? The EU has to 'encourager les autres'. For all the annoying aspects of EU membership, every country knows exactly which side its bread is buttered. The EU has specific rules regarding trade deals. If an outside country offers, say, Britain, a deal better than the one it has with the EU, EU rules require that country to offer those same terms to the EU. This has been mutually agreed to. If Japan offers Britain a 'good' deal, it has to offer that same deal to the 500 million people in the EU. Why would it make Britain a good offer in those circumstances?

This is why no-one wants to leave the EU, not really. Even in Italy with all the political tension because of the refugee situation, they're not seriously contemplating jumping off the gravy train.

davedanon

Deleted User wrote: »

The freedom for large multinationals to "cherry pick" amongst the EU countries where they can get the biggest bang for their buck, this strategy has really worked out well for Greece. It also worked well for Ireland when the money was flooding in from German pension funds and creating the biggest boom/bust in Irish financial history.


Wages in Ireland are being kept lower than they should be because of the influx of cheap labour and rental costs are too high in most of the cities for the same reason.


The EU is a really great club to be in if you're one of the beneficiaries of their policies.

'influx of cheap labour', eh? Is that code/dogwhistle for 'immigruntz'? I take it you're not a fan. I'm unsurprised.

ELM327

MikeyTaylor wrote: »

Did he entertain you on the Apprentice with his nasty comments?

Are you a member of this new silly party?
Although generally a political party has seats in the Dáil or a mandate from the electorate, even in local government. This so called party has neither.

davedanon

Oh, and the 'border controls' thing suddenly makes more sense. You want to keep those brown people out, is what I think.

davedanon

davedanon wrote: »

'influx of cheap labour', eh? Is that code/dogwhistle for 'immigruntz'? I take it you're not a fan. I'm unsurprised.

Cheap labour, who benefits from that!, not the worker, not the local community who end up with higher unemployment, hot the local people as they cannot earn a living wage.
The beneficiaries are the multinational employers who use clever tax breaks to maximise their profits at the expense of the local communities.

davedanon

Oh yes, and with 27 countries to choose from, the cherry-picking multinationals, especially the tech ones, overwhelmingly choose Ireland, one of the smallest and most geographically-remote. Riiiight.

mariaalice

Del.Monte wrote: »

How is wanting proper border controls racist?

In and of its self its is not that but the thread was about eirexit and the sort of supporter its attracts.

davedanon

davedanon wrote: »

Oh yes, and with 27 countries to choose from, the cherry-picking multinationals, especially the tech ones, overwhelmingly choose Ireland, one of the smallest and most geographically-remote. Riiiight.

Corporation tax! without that they wouldn't be here don't kid yourself otherwise.

Billy86

Deleted User wrote: »

The freedom for large multinationals to "cherry pick" amongst the EU countries where they can get the biggest bang for their buck, this strategy has really worked out well for Greece. It also worked well for Ireland when the money was flooding in from German pension funds and creating the biggest boom/bust in Irish financial history.

Those goalposts shifted mighty fast from 'currency'

The EU is a really great club to be in if you're one of the beneficiaries of their policies.

Which would make up somewhere in the region of 100% of the population of Ireland.

Lefty Bicek

davedanon wrote: »

I didn't say that though, did I. The immutability relates to physical proximity, not trading 'clubs'. But feel free to misrepresent what other say.

And a 'club' has one rule for its members, one rule for everyone else. That's what makes it a club. The UK wants to have its cake and eat it: leave the club, but still have the benefits. It's patently illogical. The EU won't give Britain a deal better then what they already have. It won't even be comparable. It will be worse. Because otherwise, what's to stop other EU countries from following suit? The EU has to 'encourager les autres'. For all the annoying aspects of EU membership, every country knows exactly which side its bread is buttered. The EU has specific rules regarding trade deals. If an outside country offers, say, Britain, a deal better than the one it has with the EU, EU rules require that country to offer those same terms to the EU. This has been mutually agreed to. If Japan offers Britain a 'good' deal, it has to offer that same deal to the 500 million people in the EU. Why would it make Britain a good offer in those circumstances?

This is why no-one wants to leave the EU, not really. Even in Italy with all the political tension because of the refugee situation, they're not seriously contemplating jumping off the gravy train.

You said that countries trade most with their nearest neighbours. I highlighted it. You characterised that as an 'immutable law of economics'.

If it is immutable, then the 'club' which impedes on that is a distortion of natural economic activity.

Therefore, I repeat -

It is not an immutable law of economics that countries must be in the same club for trade to take place.

Politicians and members of the 'club' obstructing trade with tariffs, failure to reach agreement, threats, and a general attitude of spite... that is politics. Not trade.

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

Those goalposts shifted mighty fast from 'currency'

It is largely due to the Euro that these corporations were able to operate in this way, or should that be the removal of obstacles that enabled the Euro also allowed these goalposts to be raised.