Why will the Govt not hold an "Irexit" referendum?

Berserker

Don't have a problem with this new party. Anything that breaks the centre-left/hard left bore-fest that's in place is good with me.

ELM327 wrote: »

As a Trump fan I am completely and 100% opposed to Ireland exiting the EU.
I refuse to use the moniker as it offers credibility to the new party.

Trump is against the EU. He believes that it was set up to take of advantage of the USA.

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

Which would make up somewhere in the region of 100% of the population of Ireland.

Are you sure about that, just look at the national debt (post bailout), that still needs to be repaid!

dxhound2005

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you sure about that, just look at the national debt (post bailout), that still needs to be repaid!

Every country in the world is is debt.

https://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/

Cabaal

Deleted User wrote: »

The freedom for large multinationals to "cherry pick" amongst the EU countries where they can get the biggest bang for their buck, this strategy has really worked out well for Greece. It also worked well for Ireland when the money was flooding in from German pension funds and creating the biggest boom/bust in Irish financial history.

But our corp tax etc is our decision, you can't blame the EU for us doing something that attracts company's so they choose Ireland over other countrys.
Our economy getting hit so hard during 2008 was also down to our poor decisions in many respects before the crash,

Rather then take responsibility for poor economic policy we have people just looking for somebody else to blame

ELM327

Cabaal wrote: »

But our corp tax etc is our decision, you can't blame the EU for us doing something that attracts company's so they choose Ireland over other countrys.
Our economy getting hit so hard during 2008 was also down to our poor decisions in many respects before the crash,

Rather then take responsibility for poor economic policy we have people just looking for somebody else to blame

+1
In fact it could be argued that the corporate tax rate here is directly against the wishes of the EU as a whole. Especially given how vociferous they have been against it.


It's interesting that those who are (and I can't believe I'm having to write this) against Ireland remaining in the EU, claim that the EU dictates policy here, when we are demonstrably able to have our own jurisdiction as a sovereign nation.

ELM327

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Every country in the world is is debt.

https://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/

That's the fiscal model in most countries TBH.
I don't think there's a country in the world that doesnt run a certain level of national debt.


Even the Saudis have a national debt
https://www.statista.com/statistics/531914/national-debt-of-saudi-arabia/

noodler

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is largely due to the Euro that these corporations were able to operate in this way, or should that be the removal of obstacles that enabled the Euro also allowed these goalposts to be raised.

No.

That's wrong.

noodler

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Every country in the world is is debt.

https://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/

Point missed I reckon.

We've gone from having debt of 25% GDP to around 100%.

We do not have the capacity to absorb any great shock by borrowing as things currently stand.

Rhineshark

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Corporation tax! without that they wouldn't be here don't kid yourself otherwise.

Nothing to do with having a well-educated population, being English-speaking and being an entry point to the EU market. Corp tax helps too but it's very short-sighted to think it the lone reason.

You sell us short.

ELM327

Rhineshark wrote: »

Nothing to do with having a well-educated population, being English-speaking and being an entry point to the EU market. Corp tax helps too but it's very short-sighted to think it the lone reason.

You sell us short.

It's not the lone reason but having worked in/for a few multinationals I can tell you it's a huge part of the reason
Probably in the below order
1- EU member (CHECK)
2 - Corporate tax rate (CHECK)

dxhound2005

noodler wrote: »

Point missed I reckon.

We've gone from having debt of 25% GDP to around 100%.

We do not have the capacity to absorb any great shock by borrowing as things currently stand.

That site says 69%. France is 100%, Canada 60%. Since the bailout we are now taking in enough in taxes to cover annual expenditure. There is no great imperative to pay off the debt, and it will be prudent to wait until inflation is higher to do so.

dxhound2005

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That site says 69%. France is 100%, Canada 60%. Since the bailout we are now taking in enough in taxes to cover annual expenditure. There is no great imperative to pay off the debt, and it will be prudent to wait until inflation is higher to do so.

Higher inflation = higher interest rates = higher tax take required to make repayments.
Not a good idea.

dxhound2005

Deleted User wrote: »

Higher inflation = higher interest rates = higher tax take required to make repayments.
Not a good idea.

We did very good deals in the recent low inflation times. Fixed interest borrowings. It makes perfect sense.

First Up

Deleted User wrote: »

davedanon wrote: »

Oh yes, and with 27 countries to choose from, the cherry-picking multinationals, especially the tech ones, overwhelmingly choose Ireland, one of the smallest and most geographically-remote. Riiiight.

Corporation tax! without that they wouldn't be here don't kid yourself otherwise.

If we left the EU what rate of corporation tax would we need to keep them here?

ELM327

First Up wrote: »

If we left the EU what rate of corporation tax would we need to keep them here?

-15% at least
So instead of taking a notional 15% we give them 15% to locate here. It would be the only way to get any jobs at all in a non EU Ireland.

Cabaal

Rhineshark wrote: »

Nothing to do with having a well-educated population, being English-speaking and being an entry point to the EU market. Corp tax helps too but it's very short-sighted to think it the lone reason.

You sell us short.

Indeed its not just corp tax,
But if you keep the corp tax or even drop it it'll make feck all different if suddenly you take Ireland out of the EU as we become A LOT less attractive as a destination for a corp.

Lets not forget many have EU HQ's in Ireland.
Instantly we are talking thousands of jobs that are likely gone, not just in tech but finance and pharama

The Rape of Lucretia

Giancarlo Scrawny Illness wrote: »

What about the realistic option of Bre-Ire-Ita-Gre-Hun-Swe-union?
in 2025-2030.

We explored that one in depth in the 90s, both politically, and economically. It has merit. At the time, it was knows as the 'two speed' Europe. The economic powerhouse core, and the rather flaky outer rim.

The Rape of Lucretia

super_furry wrote: »

Have to wonder if those people advocating a return to English rule are actually Irish or is there some kind of dodgy bot type messing going on.

Less of the tinfoil hat paranoia. It wouldnt be English rule. It would be a unified British Isles, with full representation in Wesminster (and what person would not be proud to have London as its capital rather than Dublin), and a fully revamped devolution to Scotland, Wales, and the 26+6. More in line with federal Germany. It could even be renamed The British Isles to term the new country, rather than an absorption, Germany 1990 style, of one into another, for those in on the island of Ireland for who 'Kingdom' is a trigger word akin to suggesting they have sold their souls to the devil.

ELM327

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Less of the tinfoil hat paranoia. It wouldnt be English rule. It would be a unified British Isles, with full representation in Wesminster (and what person would not be proud to have London as its capital rather than Dublin), and a fully revamped devolution to Scotland, Wales, and the 26+6. More in line with federal Germany. It could even be renamed The British Isles to term the new country, rather than an absorption, Germany 1990 style, of one into another, for those in on the island of Ireland for who 'Kingdom' is a trigger word akin to suggesting they have sold their souls to the devil.

Men fought and died in their thousands to free us from the English.
I'd rather a union with Iraq than the UK.

dxhound2005

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Less of the tinfoil hat paranoia. It wouldnt be English rule. It would be a unified British Isles, with full representation in Wesminster (and what person would not be proud to have London as its capital rather than Dublin), and a fully revamped devolution to Scotland, Wales, and the 26+6. More in line with federal Germany. It could even be renamed The British Isles to term the new country, rather than an absorption, Germany 1990 style, of one into another, for those in on the island of Ireland for who 'Kingdom' is a trigger word akin to suggesting they have sold their souls to the devil.

Scotland should be given the devolved power to remain in the EU, in line with the vote in their country.

People saying go back to the punt curiously omit that until 1979 the punt was tied to sterling. Not much economic freedom for poor Róisín Dubh there...

It sums up the people pushing for Irexit perfectly, however: resist the EU by supporting a return to something that is ostensibly a sign of Irish freedom - our own currency - but scratch the surface a tiny bit and John Bull just wants Paddy back on his knees being the whipping boy for British imperialist cúnts who'd once again hang us all for the wearing of the green and once again describe it all as "civilising" us.

Ireland needs to become intellectually and culturally more European, not less. Ireland remains, particularly in the media and in academic history departments, a profoundly anglocentric society where what happens in Britain is the standard reference point for all international comparisons. Still. In 2018. Long past time that even the most intellectually conquered, myopic Oirish person got off their knees and learnt from the world beyond Mother England.

batgoat

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Less of the tinfoil hat paranoia. It wouldnt be English rule. It would be a unified British Isles, with full representation in Wesminster (and what person would not be proud to have London as its capital rather than Dublin), and a fully revamped devolution to Scotland, Wales, and the 26+6. More in line with federal Germany. It could even be renamed The British Isles to term the new country, rather than an absorption, Germany 1990 style, of one into another, for those in on the island of Ireland for who 'Kingdom' is a trigger word akin to suggesting they have sold their souls to the devil.

Most Irish people would not be proud to have London as its capital..... Plus given what they're dragging the North and Scotland into, it's not exactly inspiration to join..

ebbsy

Deleted User wrote: »

Because it would be idiotic.

/thread

+1

And why was this thread allowed to start in the first place ?

Cabaal

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Less of the tinfoil hat paranoia. It wouldnt be English rule. It would be a unified British Isles, with full representation in Wesminster (and what person would not be proud to have London as its capital rather than Dublin),

I'll tell you what person wouldn't be proud, any Irish person who cares about our country, history and our identify.

Do me a favour, become the PR person for this new Irexit party will you?
Your PR stuff will ensure the party will crash and burn

super_furry

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Less of the tinfoil hat paranoia. It wouldnt be English rule. It would be a unified British Isles, with full representation in Wesminster (and what person would not be proud to have London as its capital rather than Dublin), and a fully revamped devolution to Scotland, Wales, and the 26+6. More in line with federal Germany. It could even be renamed The British Isles to term the new country, rather than an absorption, Germany 1990 style, of one into another, for those in on the island of Ireland for who 'Kingdom' is a trigger word akin to suggesting they have sold their souls to the devil.

Anyone truly advocating that is not an Irish person and is a traitor to the nation.

Nate--IRL--

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Less of the tinfoil hat paranoia. It wouldnt be English rule. It would be a unified British Isles, with full representation in Wesminster (and what person would not be proud to have London as its capital rather than Dublin), and a fully revamped devolution to Scotland, Wales, and the 26+6. More in line with federal Germany. It could even be renamed The British Isles to term the new country, rather than an absorption, Germany 1990 style, of one into another, for those in on the island of Ireland for who 'Kingdom' is a trigger word akin to suggesting they have sold their souls to the devil.

You are off your rocker.

Nate

dxhound2005

ebbsy wrote: »

And why was this thread allowed to start in the first place ?

That needs another thread.

Lefty Bicek

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland needs to become intellectually and culturally more European,

Bull****e.

Ireland needs to become intellectually and culturally more Irish.

Lefty Bicek

ebbsy wrote: »

+1

And why was this thread allowed to start in the first place ?

What kind of a question is that ?

Cabaal

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Bull****e.

Ireland needs to become intellectually and culturally more Irish.

Tell me, what exactly is more Irish?
Do you mean language or culture? Perhaps you mean ultra conservative?

Much of what people consider our culture is tied to the catholic church....which is anything but Irish and a poor example of what we should aim to do again.

Give me an example of what period in our history since we became a republic that we should magnify, a decade will do if you don't want to narrow it down too much.

ebbsy

ebbsy wrote: »

+1

And why was this thread allowed to start in the first place ?

It is a discussion forum, blocking subjects that you don't like would amount to censorship and prevention of open discussion about contentious political matters.

The Rape of Lucretia

Cabaal wrote: »

I'll tell you what person wouldn't be proud, any Irish person who cares about our country, history and our identify.

Do me a favour, become the PR person for this new Irexit party will you?
Your PR stuff will ensure the party will crash and burn

Irexit, on its own is a dreadful idea. It would leave the 26 in a total no-man's land. Only in the contect of Breunion does it become a viable option.
At the moment, both ideas seem to be floating independently. This is possibley deliberate strategy. And the joining of the dots is being left to sink in with the wider population, to realise that it is in the implementation of both - preferably in a single referendum that avoids ambiguity or the possibility of one without the other - that a pragmatic, realistic, economically stable, Brexit impact minimising, solution exists.

And I hope, it would stimulate the spirit, drive, and optimism of both Northern Irish, and Republic Irish people, that it be finally, a natural solution to the governance of these islands, promoting peace, economic dynamism, cultural richness, as a major nation of the world for centuries to come.

Its a concept that is beyond or challenging the accepted truths of many Irish people today. But slowly slowly, the benefits will be realised.

dxhound2005

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Irexit, on its own is a dreadful idea. It would leave the 26 in a total no-man's land. Only in the contect of Breunion does it become a viable option.
At the moment, both ideas seem to be floating independently. This is possibley deliberate strategy. And the joining of the dots is being left to sink in with the wider population, to realise that it is in the implementation of both - preferably in a single referendum that avoids ambiguity or the possibility of one without the other - that a pragmatic, realistic, economically stable, Brexit impact minimising, solution exists.

And I hope, it would stimulate the spirit, drive, and optimism of both Northern Irish, and Republic Irish people, that it be finally, a natural solution to the governance of these islands, promoting peace, economic dynamism, cultural richness, as a major nation of the world for centuries to come.

Its a concept that is beyond or challenging the accepted truths of many Irish people today. But slowly slowly, the benefits will be realised.

What happens when Scotland pulls out?

Lefty Bicek

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Bull****e.

Ireland needs to become intellectually and culturally more Irish.

Yeah, except being anglocentric and aping English culture and mores has been central to being "Irish" since 1800 so let's try a different tack in breaking that English hold on the "Irish" mind.

The Rape of Lucretia

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What happens when Scotland pulls out?

Your question is flawed in its implied certainty, of a potentiality, that of Scotland leaving the UK.
It is more unlikely than likely. In a politically restructured but united, nation of the British Isles, the chances of Scotland pulling out negligible. Their endorsement and participation in such a restructure would put to bed, for all practical purposes, such a movement.

Cabaal

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Your question is flawed in its implied certainty, of a potentiality, that of Scotland leaving the UK.
It is more unlikely than likely. In a politically restructured but united, nation of the British Isles, the chances of Scotland pulling out negligible. Their endorsement and participation in such a restructure would put to bed, for all practical purposes, such a movement.

Tell me, in this wet dream of yours....do we all get a little painting of the queen to hang in our homes too?

Atoms for Peace

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What happens when Scotland pulls out?

Pulling out isn't a very effective method.

Sleeper12

political analyst wrote:

Surely, "Irexit" would be beneficial to us because it would save us a lot of money in terms of our financial contribution to the EU apparatus and maybe even get the Irish national debt reduced because we might only then have to pay money back to the IMF instead of to the Troika. Furthermore, Ireland could have a new economic relationship with the UK when the UK eventually leaves the EU.

If we ever did think that leaving would be a good idea the sensible thing to do is sit tight and see how Britain do over the next five years or more. We'd be right thicks to leave now

Billy86

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you sure about that, just look at the national debt (post bailout), that still needs to be repaid!

I can't find national debt figures historically before 1980, but can tell you that as a percentage of GDP our national debt in 2017 was lower than at any point in the 1980s or early 90s, and had nearly been halved down to 68% from the 119% peak of 2012, seeing a reduction every single year. After initially being quite possibly the very worst hit country in the biggest global recession the world had seen for close to a century, I am fine with that and hope to see it continue to slide in the right direction.

Yes, I am 100% definite about it and until you can show or explain we'd have been better off by not joining the EU and never benefiting from it's trade and infrastructural policies given how our economy was before joining, you don't have a leg to stand on on this front.

Every single person, or a bare minimum of 99.9%, currently living in the Republic of Ireland has unquestionably benefited from us having joined the EU 45 years ago, and the prosperity that has come since.

WinnyThePoo

The Rape Of Lucretia

Trol

Larbre34

Sleeper12 wrote: »

If we ever did think that leaving would be a good idea the sensible thing to do is sit tight and see how Britain do over the next five years or more. We'd be right thicks to leave now

There are countries far more poised to examine the effects of an EU exit on Britain than we are. Quite apart from Italy, Finland, the Netherlands, Greece and Hungary, by the end of today we will see the outcome of a landmark Swedish General Election with a distinctly populist and Eurosceptic flavour.

In fact, thats what makes an Irexit Freedom party so utterly moot - it would take so long to reverse Ireland's europhilia (80-90%) that the matter of the EUs future will probably have been settled not just in Britain but in other member states and it will either be the same, reformed or defunct by the time we would be making a decision. Theres your reason not to hold a referendum, if one were needed.

Cabaal

Larbre34 wrote: »

There are countries far more poised to examine the effects of an EU exit on Britain than we are. Quite apart from Italy, Finland, the Netherlands, Greece and Hungary, by the end of today we will see the outcome of a landmark Swedish General Election with a distinctly populist and Eurosceptic flavour.

I find it amusing you included Finland in the above, it's even more pro-EU then Ireland is

ELM327

Cabaal wrote: »

Tell me, in this wet dream of yours....do we all get a little painting of the queen to hang in our homes too?

And thatcher as honorary president

Lefty Bicek

Cabaal wrote: »

Tell me, what exactly is more Irish?
Do you mean language or culture? Perhaps you mean ultra conservative?

Much of what people consider our culture is tied to the catholic church....which is anything but Irish and a poor example of what we should aim to do again.

Give me an example of what period in our history since we became a republic that we should magnify, a decade will do if you don't want to narrow it down too much.

Well, thanks for the homework.

Firstly, for what reason is the period since we became a republic in any way a significant or even interesting starting point ? 1937, why ?

Secondly, magnifying periods of the past for present or future purposes - as you imply - is what historians call 'myth'. It is not culture, though culture is a useful tool in that process.

So we should not do that, and I didn't propose that.

Nor do I see any need for an elite-led cultural revival such as we had with Hyde, Pearse et al.

We ought to have had enough of people telling us what to think, by now ?

Nor do I see appreciation of literature, music, the archaeological and built environment, and so on as requiring always to be led by the hand.

But inconveniently, it might require Irish people to stop destroying the landscape with ugly houses. We are a visually ignorant people.

Inconveniently too, opening a book is most profitably done when the mindless British and American tat tv is switched off. Difficult for most.

A school choir from Kilkenny on Britain's Got Talent. What a lack of healthy self-respect to do that.

And that goddamn stupid mid-Atlantic accent, 'smorter... smorter still'. It's an inferiority complex.

The Irish attitude to the language is a disgrace, a really awful legacy which began as a subservient attitude towards the English master. Inherited inferiority complex. No need for it.

The Catholic Church as far as I am concerned, is possibly the worst legacy of British rule. They knew what they were doing with the Maynooth Grant. But they obviously were on to something, because the church has suppressed the Irish far more efficiently than their brutality ever did.

I am Irish.

I'm not British, not American, not German, nor Polish, nor any other. All those things are external to me. Interesting, important, enjoyable, but ultimately secondary.

There are no barriers to me enjoying Beethoven, or Nelson Algren, or William Blake, or Wawel, nor from learning French, or Polish. As I do.

We have enough of value that we do not. A healthier and more self-respecting attitude would be to deal with that first, and then 'look to European culture', if needs be.

Lefty Bicek

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, except being anglocentric and aping English culture and mores has been central to being "Irish" since 1800 so let's try a different tack in breaking that English hold on the "Irish" mind.

I agree.

Larbre34

Cabaal wrote: »

I find it amusing you included Finland in the above, it's even more pro-EU then Ireland is

If you would go ahead and cite some comparitive evidence, that'd be super.

I don't doubt that in general they are well disposed to Europe, however at the time of the bailouts there was strong resistance to any kind of debt forgiveness. Also as of 2015 the second largest party in Parliament was nationalist, populist and eurosceptic. That party has since split, but compared to Ireland, Finland are much further down the road of an established eurosceptic rump.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, except being anglocentric and aping English culture and mores has been central to being "Irish" since 1800 so let's try a different tack in breaking that English hold on the "Irish" mind.

Anois !, is féidir leat tosú tríd an nGaeilge a úsáid go laethúil le haghaidh comhráite ginearálta sa bhaile agus san obair agus aon uair a théann tú ag siopadóireacht.

Billy86

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Firstly, for what reason is the period since we became a republic in any way a significant or even interesting starting point ? 1937, why ?

Secondly, magnifying periods of the past for present or future purposes - as you imply - is what historians call 'myth'. It is not culture, though culture is a useful tool in that process.

So we should not do that, and I didn't propose that.

If you don't want to use the point we started as an independent nation at as a starting point for how we have performed as an independent nation, when do you propose to start looking at how we have performed as an independent nation, and why?

Lefty Bicek

Billy86 wrote: »

If you don't want to use the point we started as an independent nation at as a starting point for how we have performed as an independent nation, when do you propose to start looking at how we have performed as an independent nation, and why?

I answered the question I was asked, which was -

Give me an example of what period in our history since we became a republic that we should magnify, a decade will do if you don't want to narrow it down too much.

The Rape of Lucretia

Deleted User wrote: »

Anois !, is féidir leat tosú tríd an nGaeilge a úsáid go laethúil le haghaidh comhráite ginearálta sa bhaile agus san obair agus aon uair a théann tú ag siopadóireacht.

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Anois !, is féidir leat tosú tríd an nGaeilge a úsáid go laethúil le haghaidh comhráite ginearálta sa bhaile agus san obair agus aon uair a théann tú ag siopadóireacht. Edit


Now, you can start using Irish daily for general conversations at home and in the work and whenever you go shopping