Why will the Govt not hold an "Irexit" referendum?

Billy86

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

I answered the question I was asked, which was -

You didn't though.

You gave out about Kilkenny choirs and Britain's Got Talent, you gave out about the Catholic Church, you gave out about the English language, you gave out about houses and books, you gave out about British and American television, and you gave out about accents. Then you listed some artists you presumably do like.

But at no point in that post did you ever attempt to give a starting date as to the period you think we should be looking towards, which is why I asked you.

Lefty Bicek

Billy86 wrote: »

But at no point in that post did you ever attempt to give a starting date as to the period you think we should be looking towards, which is why I asked you.

Well, it was a stupid question, but I didn't want to come out and say so.

The question was based on a silly confusion between the function of culture on the one hand, and of historical myth (a precise term) on the other.

Finally, the question had an underlying supposition that there was such a period/decade in existence that I would wish to 'magnify'. There is no such decade, to my mind. Either before or after independence.

That was the whole point of making the distinction between 'culture' and 'historical myth'.

Which makes your question irrelevant too, if only you could see that.

super_furry

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/09/08/ourkip/

Just looking at all the names of those involved in organising this nonsense, nearly every single one of the them were prominent campaigners against gay marriage and to keep the eighth amendment. They've lost there and are trying to drag Ireland kicking and screaming back to the 1950s, outside of the EU.

Lefty Bicek

Billy86 wrote: »

us having joined the EU 45 years ago, and the prosperity that has come since.

The EU was not formed until 1992.

We joined the EEC, not the EU.

This seems the right moment to quote that great 'European', Valery Giscard d'Estaing, speaking about the Lisbon treaty...

Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals we dare not present to them directly... it would confirm to European citizens the notion that European construction is a procedure organised behind their backs by lawyers and diplomats.

(my emphasis)

dxhound2005

The anti EU party in Sweden is reported to have won about 16% of the vote. Below what was predicted.

The Rape of Lucretia

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

The EU was not formed until 1992.

We joined the EEC, not the EU.

This seems the right moment to quote that great 'European', Valery Giscard d'Estaing, speaking about the Lisbon treaty...

(my emphasis)

How true. The best politicians are the ones who have the courage, in the interest of those they represent, to hide from those same people, their true intent. The Brexit mess is a good example where giving the people a say blew up in their faces. The European project has worked superbly, by contrast, whenever the original architects of it, Germany and France, are in charge of its principal developments.

Lefty Bicek

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The anti EU party in Sweden is reported to have won about 16% of the vote. Below what was predicted.

Source for that, please ?

The people of Sweden are voting in a general election - where an anti-immigration party is vying to make large gains.

The nationalist Sweden Democrats (SD), which polls suggest have 20% support, are tipped for second place.

Prime Minister Stefan Lofven called the SD a "racist" party as he cast his ballot in Stockholm.

The SD - which has its roots in neo-Nazism - has rebranded itself and says it is inclusive.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45461686

Larbre34

From the Guardian live blog, quoting Swedish TV station TV4

"TV4’s exit poll, if it proves to be correct, looks deeply disappointing for the Sweden Democrats who are projected to win just 16.3% of the vote, only 3.4% more than their 2014 score and far below the 25%-plus polls suggested they were on course for earlier in the summer.

But it looks like being a bad night for the two big mainstream parties, the centre-left Social Democrats and centre-right Moderates, too. They fell to 25.4%, their worst score since 1908, and 18.4% respectively.

The big winners were the smaller parties: the ex-communist Left, nearly doubling their score to 9.8%, and the centre-right Centre and Christian Democrat parties, both up by a roughly a third from 2014.

The centre-right and centre-left blocs are practically neck and neck on 41% and 40.1% respectively. Forming the new governments is going to be a long and complicated process."

dxhound2005

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/sep/09/sweden-election-live

TV4’s exit poll, if it proves to be correct, looks deeply disappointing for the Sweden Democrats who are projected to win just 16.3% of the vote, only 3.4% more than their 2014 score and far below the 25%-plus polls suggested they were on course for earlier in the summer.

Larbre34

I think the slightly rude awakening in the EU to the emergence of a far-right element has now run its course. After France, Austria, Germany, Italy and in association with ongoing Brexit convulsions, Europe's natural tendency to the centre has been dusted off and we will now return to concensus politics. Like Ireland, its no harm to have a decent representation of the more marginal parties in Sweden, to keep the centrists honest and hard working.

Well done Sweden.

4068ac1elhodqr

There is currently an indication of slight lowering of expectations^ for the SD party on live trading markets,
but remember Swe not long ago the poster boy for liberalism and all that is lefty.

If they get close to 1/5th of the votes (20%), it's still a bit of a wake up call.
And it's likely still the worst result for the S (democrats) since the days way before any of Abba were born.

Lefty Bicek

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45466174

BBC putting them at 19.2 %

4068ac1elhodqr

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45466174

BBC putting them at 19.2 %

Wonder if there might be a bit of disinformation also at play from Swe's media.

i.e. Don't vote for SD sure they have no chance (like Trump was on election night), maybe vote for your 2nd choice instead - just incase they don't do well.

dan1895

Looking at the Irexit party's twitter and it would seem that their followers are made up of Brits and conspiracy theorists. Seems like a sane sensible bunch alright.

The Rape of Lucretia

dan1895 wrote: »

Looking at the Irexit party's twitter and it would seem that their followers are made up of Brits and conspiracy theorists. Seems like a sane sensible bunch alright.

Have you a comment on the fundamental issue, or are personal quips about the people behind it the best you can mount ?

There does seem to be a very closed mind in southern Ireland to consider Irexit and Breunion. Dispassionate debate seems hard to come by, suggesting the mentality of those in the republic is still very conditioned by a Devalerian, limited perspective. Which is not to its own benefit.

dan1895

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Have you a comment on the fundamental issue, or are personal quips about the people behind it the best you can mount ?

There does seem to be a very closed mind in southern Ireland to consider Irexit and Breunion. Dispassionate debate seems hard to come by, suggesting the mentality of those in the republic is still very conditioned by a Devalerian, limited perspective. Which is not to its own benefit.

Yes my own view is you'd want to be a grade a moron to want Ireland to leave the EU. The country would revert back to how it was in the 40's and 50's, a backward, poor, isolated dump under the thumb of the church. Anyone who wants that is a traitor to this country.

First Up

dan1895 wrote: »

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Have you a comment on the fundamental issue, or are personal quips about the people behind it the best you can mount ?

There does seem to be a very closed mind in southern Ireland to consider Irexit and Breunion. Dispassionate debate seems hard to come by, suggesting the mentality of those in the republic is still very conditioned by a Devalerian, limited perspective. Which is not to its own benefit.

Yes my own view is you'd want to be a grade a moron to want Ireland to leave the EU. The country would revert back to how it was in the 40's and 50's, a backward, poor, isolated dump under the thumb of the church. Anyone who wants that is a traitor to this country.

The idea seems to be that we would revive the Anglo Irish Free Trade Agreement. That was signed around 1965 and sure everything was great then.

dxhound2005

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Have you a comment on the fundamental issue, or are personal quips about the people behind it the best you can mount ?

There does seem to be a very closed mind in southern Ireland to consider Irexit and Breunion. Dispassionate debate seems hard to come by, suggesting the mentality of those in the republic is still very conditioned by a Devalerian, limited perspective. Which is not to its own benefit.

When I suggested that Scotland might leave the UK you did not seem to have a mind open to that possibility. But you want us to go along with your madcap scheme to bring Ireland into the UK.

Lefty Bicek

Giancarlo Scrawny Illness wrote: »

Wonder if there might be a bit of disinformation also at play from Swe's media.

i.e. Don't vote for SD sure they have no chance (like Trump was on election night), maybe vote for your 2nd choice instead - just incase they don't do well.

I read somewhere only today about a quirk of the Swedish voting system, whereby you must ask for a party-specific ballot paper ie you ask the official, publicly, for the ballot paper you want.

Odd if true, and hardly conducive to a 'going against the grain' mindset.

fly_agaric

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

There does seem to be a very closed mind in southern Ireland

what else can you expect of the backward & benighted provinces, but maybe when the wonderful Breunion/Empire 2.0 kicks in our masters will get the old civilising mission right this time:D

dxhound2005

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

I read somewhere only today about a quirk of the Swedish voting system, whereby you must ask for a party-specific ballot paper ie you ask the official, publicly, for the ballot paper you want.

Odd if true, and hardly conducive to a 'going against the grain' mindset.

You read somewhere something which you don't know is true.

Danzy

The Libertarian approach just got some kick in the chops today in Sweden.

Lefty Bicek

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You read somewhere something which you don't know is true.

Yes, and made no attempt to misrepresent it as anything otherwise. I'd have every confidence that if you are smart enough to have perceived that, absolutely everyone else here is too. Bar none.


If anyone can confirm or deny, that would be nice.

It's just a conversation, don't worry too much about it.


edit - located the observation in question...

Post 106 on this page

http://www.politics.ie/forum/elections/266309-swedish-general-election-2018-a-11.html

I know it's only Politics.ie, but then this is only Politics.ie Lite, so there we are.


.

4068ac1elhodqr

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

I read somewhere only today about a quirk of the Swedish voting system, whereby you must ask for a party-specific ballot paper ie you ask the official, publicly, for the ballot paper you want.

Odd if true, and hardly conducive to a 'going against the grain' mindset.

That would be an oddity for sure.

Anyway as the night progresses it does seem the Democrats have taken the most seats (but the worst performance in over 100yrs).

But the SD may take 19-20% or 68 seats, so could hold some sway over their new parliments decisions.

On the Irexit theme, it's wrong to assume it can only mean joining the (former) uk, and irexit is unlikely anytime before itaexit, grexit, denexit etc..

Isn't the Western Baltics^ likely to join the EU in the future, how many states is too many 27, 26+6 more? Ireland only joined when there was 6 members.

WinnyThePoo

Danzy wrote: »

The Libertarian approach just got some kick in the chops today in Sweden.

Weird , why has swedes free will taken a kick in the chops today?

Lefty Bicek

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You read somewhere something which you don't know is true.

You know the feeling...

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108031978&postcount=163

Capt'n Midnight

dan1895 wrote: »

Yes my own view is you'd want to be a grade a moron to want Ireland to leave the EU. The country would revert back to how it was in the 40's and 50's, a backward, poor, isolated dump under the thumb of the church. Anyone who wants that is a traitor to this country.

Worse , it could become another Northern Ireland.

No foreign investment.

Very little state investment.

Absolutely dependent on UK government handouts.


Only that the DUP provide the critical votes to May, NI would have been thrown under the Brexit bus by now. And make no mistake there will be payback from the Tories the first chance they get.


And the odd thing is that Northern Ireland actually exports more than it imports.

Danzy

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Weird , why has swedes free will taken a kick in the chops today?

What has this got to do with that I said or is it someone elses post you meant to reply to.

Capt'n Midnight

dan1895 wrote: »

Looking at the Irexit party's twitter and it would seem that their followers are made up of Brits and conspiracy theorists. Seems like a sane sensible bunch alright.

So they are a single issue party, except the issue isn't Irexit.

One wonders how long their UK overlords will keep funding them when they realise they've been had. :pac:

Duckworth_Luas

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They look a bit loopy

Does Rick Flair know she has his belt?

I predict a showdown at Summerslam.

WinnyThePoo

Danzy wrote: »

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Weird , why has swedes free will taken a kick in the chops today?

What has this got to do with that I said or is it someone elses post you meant to reply to.

Liberterian...

Irish Kings

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Ah, indeed. 'The People's Vote'.

We didn't get the result we wanted the first time, let's give them another chance to vote correctly.

Where have we heard that before ?

yep keep holding a referendum until the public deliver the only result acceptable to you and then refuse to allow any more referendums on the subject. real democratic.

The Rape of Lucretia

Irish Kings wrote: »

yep keep holding a referendum until the public deliver the only result acceptable to you and then refuse to allow any more referendums on the subject. real democratic.

Its an ungainly solution, but given the popular mood in favour of democracy, yet the vast majority being insufficiently informed to use their franchise competently, it must be tolerated. Democracy is the least etc.

ArchXStanton

Irish Kings wrote: »

yep keep holding a referendum until the public deliver the only result acceptable to you and then refuse to allow any more referendums on the subject. real democratic.

Democracy and the EU shouldn't even be in the same sentence,its only a word they use

The Rape of Lucretia

dan1895 wrote: »

Yes my own view is you'd want to be a grade a moron to want Ireland to leave the EU. The country would revert back to how it was in the 40's and 50's, a backward, poor, isolated dump under the thumb of the church. Anyone who wants that is a traitor to this country.

First Up wrote: »

The idea seems to be that we would revive the Anglo Irish Free Trade Agreement. That was signed around 1965 and sure everything was great then.

Proving my point that so many seem incapable of looking the the present situation, objectively - but totally hamstrung by the past. A blind spot, created by a handful of shiboleths that are totally outdated, and irrelevant to the issue facing southern Ireland over the next five years.

We must be more forward looking, and less emotional on past myths.

First Up

Irish Kings wrote: »

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Ah, indeed. 'The People's Vote'.

We didn't get the result we wanted the first time, let's give them another chance to vote correctly.

Where have we heard that before ?

yep keep holding a referendum until the public deliver the only result acceptable to you and then refuse to allow any more referendums on the subject. real democratic.

"You" in this case being the government that "you" elected.
What exactly is your problem?

Lefty Bicek

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Liberterian...

It is not to be wondered at that you can't spell Libertarian, when you can't even spell your own name.

Winnie.

Junkyard Tom

What's wrong Lefty? Did your Mammy not pay you enough attention when you were young or something?

Irish Kings

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Its an ungainly solution, but given the popular mood in favour of democracy, yet the vast majority being insufficiently informed to use their franchise competently, it must be tolerated. Democracy is the least etc.

agreed, so why isn't the democratic decision of the people of Britain who voted to leave the EU being respected ? ( a decision I think was a mistake, but democracy is democracy.)

Also no genuine attempt other than name calling and labeling them as xenophobic, stupid and racist has been made to try and understand the reasons ordinary people in the UK voted to leave.

dan1895

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Proving my point that so many seem incapable of looking the the present situation, objectively - but totally hamstrung by the past. A blind spot, created by a handful of shiboleths that are totally outdated, and irrelevant to the issue facing southern Ireland over the next five years.

We must be more forward looking, and less emotional on past myths.

There is no appetite in this country for us to leave the EU. I don't see how Britain shooting themselves in the foot makes it any more likely.
I'm begining to think those on here championing this sort of thing are frustrated right wing nuts who wouldnt mention this in person to someone as they would rightly be laughed at.

Lefty Bicek

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

What's wrong Lefty? Did your Mammy not pay you enough attention when you were young or something?

Don't worry, your mother pays me plenty of attention.

Lefty Bicek

Irish Kings wrote: »

agreed, so why isn't the democratic decision of the people of Britain who voted to leave the EU being respected ? ( a decision I think was a mistake, but democracy is democracy.)

Also no genuine attempt other than name calling and labeling them as xenophobic, stupid and racist has been made to try and understand the reasons ordinary people in the UK voted to leave.

Absolutely spot on.

lawred2

Irish Kings wrote: »

agreed, so why isn't the democratic decision of the people of Britain who voted to leave the EU being respected ? ( a decision I think was a mistake, but democracy is democracy.)

Also no genuine attempt other than name calling and labeling them as xenophobic, stupid and racist has been made to try and understand the reasons ordinary people in the UK voted to leave.

And a vote tomorrow that produced a different result would also be democratic.

So what's your point?

oceanman

lawred2 wrote: »

And a vote tomorrow that produced a different result would also be democratic.

So what's your point?

the point is the people have already cast their vote...

lawred2

oceanman wrote: »

the point is the people have already cast their vote...

And?

How is another vote any less democratic than the first vote?

Lefty Bicek

lawred2 wrote: »

And?

How is another vote any less democratic than the first vote?

Revisiting the thing once in a generation has some merit.

Revisiting it after a couple of years just because people have been kow-towed, cajoled or frightened into doubting their original vote is just making a mockery of a sensible notion of democracy.

People having to live long-term with the conseqences of their voting actions is probably a good idea anyway.

Or IS that too much for the snowflake mind ?

batgoat

Irish Kings wrote: »

agreed, so why isn't the democratic decision of the people of Britain who voted to leave the EU being respected ? ( a decision I think was a mistake, but democracy is democracy.)

Also no genuine attempt other than name calling and labeling them as xenophobic, stupid and racist has been made to try and understand the reasons ordinary people in the UK voted to leave.

It's not being disrespected, they're leaving... The consequences that go with leaving is their problem... So what pray tell has the EU done wrong here?

ArchXStanton

lawred2 wrote: »

And?

How is another vote any less democratic than the first vote?

That only normally happens when the EU don't get their way...its dubious democracy

oceanman

ArchXStanton wrote: »

That only normally happens when the EU don't get their way...its dubious democracy

as we all remember too well here...

batgoat

ArchXStanton wrote: »

That only normally happens when the EU don't get their way...its dubious democracy

If another vote were to occur that would not be because of the EU... Blame it all you want but the English public changing their perspective on the consequences that go with brexit is all to do with the UK...