**Nov 2016 Teacher Dispute / See post 1 for Warning **

vin33

Mebuntu wrote: »

Benicetomonty wrote: »

just listened to Liveline and there were 2 or 3 v articulate teachers speaking that were well able to defend our position. Even managed to shut Joe up, never easy!

Sorry, I'm just Joe Public and have no children affected by the dispute but I have to disagree with your view of Liveline today. Nothing those teachers said justified their position in any shape or form - quite the opposite, in fact. The same can be said having heard from your leader speaking on radio earlier this morning.

Just face the facts. The ASTI haven't a leg to stand on and the longer this goes on you are all callously hurting the very people you purport to love to serve.

I thought Ed Byrne spoke very well this morning and argued his points very well. I didn't think so in previous interviews I heard.
That said, the problem is that there are too many points to argue and most people looking in don't have the time, interest or attention span to listen. Throw in the usual complaints about holidays and hours and you can see how it's difficult for you to win over the public. Without that I don't see the government conceding anything. Bear in mind that the potential future leaders of Fine Gael have all publicly argued against the teachers position.

ethical

Just listening to Minister Bruton on TodayFM and he is hell bent on the non seperation of s & s and Croke Parke hours and this has led the media in general to be totally mixed up over what the dispute is about! He comes across as someone that dosent know what is actually happening on the ground and really he sounds like he is a "glove puppet" for Paschal Donoghue,who is just interested in feathering his own nest.Its time they both got real.

okedoke

Was it ever proposed to have teachers teach an extra hour per week for the CP hours, instead of the seemingly make work hours currently. All other PS workers are working 1-2 extra hours per week.

vin33

ethical wrote: »

Just listening to Minister Bruton on TodayFM and he is hell bent on the non seperation of s & s and Croke Parke hours and this has led the media in general to be totally mixed up over what the dispute is about! He comes across as someone that dosent know what is actually happening on the ground and really he sounds like he is a "glove puppet" for Paschal Donoghue,who is just interested in feathering his own nest.Its time they both got real.

So you think he's confusing the issues by mistake or because he doesn't know what he's doing?

Benicetomonty

okedoke wrote: »

Was it ever proposed to have teachers teach an extra hour per week for the CP hours, instead of the seemingly make work hours currently. All other PS workers are working 1-2 extra hours per week.

Probably. But teaching an extra hour would bring with it the necessity for more prep, corrections etc, which would extend far beyond 1 hour when all is said and done.

oppenheimer1

okedoke wrote: »

Was it ever proposed to have teachers teach an extra hour per week for the CP hours, instead of the seemingly make work hours currently. All other PS workers are working 1-2 extra hours per week.

It suited teaching unions at the time that CP hours would be essentially non productive - meetings etc. If they had been regularised into the working day, where say teachers had to give an hour grind to any student that needed extra help, then it would have become regularised and very hard to reverse.

Mardy Bum

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

okedoke wrote: »

Was it ever proposed to have teachers teach an extra hour per week for the CP hours, instead of the seemingly make work hours currently. All other PS workers are working 1-2 extra hours per week.

It suited teaching unions at the time that CP hours would be essentially non productive - meetings etc. If they had been regularised into the working day, where say teachers had to give an hour grind to any student that needed extra help, then it would have become regularised and very hard to reverse.

Teachers already have one of the longest class times in the OECD. There is no need for an extra hour per week of class teaching.

oppenheimer1

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Teachers already have one of the longest class times in the OECD. There is no need for an extra hour per week of class teaching.

There's not is there? I suppose that explains the non existence of a massive grinds industry in this country.

No, no students need extra help.:rolleyes:

The_Valeyard

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Teachers already have one of the longest class times in the OECD. There is no need for an extra hour per week of class teaching.

According to <mod snip>Ed Walsh, former head of UL on Newstalk today, teachers are pampered, lazy people with poor degrees and shortest teaching hours in Europe.

Keep it clean please, next one is an infraction. After that a ban.
Thanks

Benicetomonty

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There's not is there? I suppose that explains the non existence of a massive grinds industry in this country.

No, no students need extra help.:rolleyes:

Doesnt matter how many hours kids are in a classroom if those classrooms are overcrowded. Nothing will replace 1 to 1 tuition with a qualified motivated teacher so grinds are here to stay. If you want this industry to be less popular, the solution is simple: reduce the pupil teacher ratio.

Iused2likebusts

The_Valeyard wrote: »

According to <.Mod Snip.>, Ed Walsh, former head of UL on Newstalk today, teachers are pampered, lazy people with poor degrees and shortest teaching hours in Europe.

Our holidays are now up to 6 and a half months a year. Ed deciding to include weekends in his argument aswell.

political analyst

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

It suited teaching unions at the time that CP hours would be essentially non productive - meetings etc. If they had been regularised into the working day, where say teachers had to give an hour grind to any student that needed extra help, then it would have become regularised and very hard to reverse.

It wouldn't have been feasible to extend the amount of time for which pupils are in school, considering that children are not as able to handle stress as adults are.

Villain

RTE suggesting that if Croke Park hours are agreed to there is a deal, why do ASTI think that they should be exempt from them when all other public servants do them?

political analyst

Many ASTI members, when they voted fir withdrawal from S&S, may have believed that there would be external personnel brought in to do S&S. It is likely that they will put pressure on their leadership to rescind the directive in which withdrawal from S&S was ordered. I believe they'd rather do S&S unpaid than let their pupils' prospects be damaged.

Iused2likebusts

Villain wrote: »

RTE suggesting that if Croke Park hours are agreed to there is a deal, why do ASTI think that they should be exempt from them when all other public servants do them?

Because a proportion of them are pointless and end up costing the country money. I've no problem doing pt meetings and staff meetings outside school hours but most of the rest of the stuff we do is just a box ticking excercise that benefits nobody.

oppenheimer1

political analyst wrote: »

It wouldn't have been feasible to extend the amount of time for which pupils are in school, considering that children are not as able to handle stress as adults are.

This is the problem with the mindset of teachers in Ireland -excuses, problems and resistance to any sort of change. My suggestion was that CP hours should be used to give students that need and want extra help. It's hardly that stressful on students when they seek the same service privately.

Any sort of forward thinking proposal is met with resistance from the unions unless it involves more money or less work for them.

evolving_doors

okedoke wrote: »

Was it ever proposed to have teachers teach an extra hour per week for the CP hours, instead of the seemingly make work hours currently. All other PS workers are working 1-2 extra hours per week.

Just pondering.. how would you throw an extra hour on to every teacher's timetable. You'd probably have to fire 2 teachers to make room.

Villain

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Because a proportion of them are pointless and end up costing the country money. I've no problem doing pt meetings and staff meetings outside school hours but most of the rest of the stuff we do is just a box ticking excercise that benefits nobody.

Some are and the TUI got a bit more room on how they can be used but some also make sense e.g. parent teacher meetings.

Surely 33 hours isn't worth this mess?

amacca

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Any sort of forward thinking proposal is met with resistance from the unions unless it involves more money or less work for them.

And any sort of suggestion that teachers might actually be in the right about the withdrawal of SS due to Govt side not honouring their own agreements is at best ignored.

political analyst

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

This is the problem with the mindset of teachers in Ireland -excuses, problems and resistance to any sort of change. My suggestion was that CP hours should be used to give students that need and want extra help. It's hardly that stressful on students when they seek the same service privately.

Any sort of forward thinking proposal is met with resistance from the unions unless it involves more money or less work for them.

It would reduce pupils' home-time and thus increase their stress levels.

deiseindublin

Villain wrote: »

Surely 33 hours isn't worth this mess?

If you look at everything seperately nothing is worth this mess - but the non payment of 43 hours S&S, 33 CP hours, half in, half out hours, along with pension levy and pay cuts means that there was eventually a straw that broke the camels back.

Villain

deiseindublin wrote: »

If you look at everything seperately nothing is worth this mess - but the non payment of 43 hours S&S, 33 CP hours, half in, half out hours, along with pension levy and pay cuts means that there was eventually a straw that broke the camels back.

I get that but Teachers surely know they can't get anything other unions in Lansdowne road would want as the floodgates would open and the Government can't have that.

I can't see how this can be solved without ASTI giving something and the CP hours are surely the least of other evils, I mean how long can teachers do without pay?

deiseindublin

Villain wrote: »

I get that but Teachers surely know they can't get anything other unions in Lansdowne road would want as the floodgates would open and the Government can't have that.

But it has Sweet F A to do with Landsdowne Rd, it's legacy from Haddington Rd. They're not looking for a raise, they're looking to get the money promised for 3 years of free S&S cover.

The money is there, it's budgeted for. LRA is not relevant to today's argument. Fair enough if you were talking about the 7 strike days.

Villain

deiseindublin wrote: »

But it has Sweet F A to do with Landsdowne Rd, it's legacy from Haddington Rd. They're not looking for a raise, they're looking to get the money promised for 3 years of free S&S cover.

The money is there, it's budgeted for. LRA is not relevant to today's argument. Fair enough if you were talking about the 7 strike days.

Read what I was replying to please, pension levey etc is far beyond Haddington RD!

feardeas

km79 wrote:

why would any of us bother so? It's a work day. We ARE available to work. We are NOT on strike. So we turn up for work

I think it's unreasonable to have to travel long distances to sign a form when not being paid. Strike days different.

judeboy101

feardeas wrote: »

I think it's unreasonable to have to travel long distances to sign a form when not being paid. Strike days different.

God forbid you show so solidarity with your workmates and take pride in the fact that the FG gov cant rob you of your right to try to go to work.

evolving_doors

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

This is the problem with the mindset of teachers in Ireland -excuses, problems and resistance to any sort of change. ...

Member has been infracted for flaming.

MOD

feardeas

ethical wrote:

Just listening to Minister Bruton on TodayFM and he is hell bent on the non seperation of s & s and Croke Parke hours and this has led the media in general to be totally mixed up over what the dispute is about! He comes across as someone that dosent know what is actually happening on the ground and really he sounds like he is a "glove puppet" for Paschal Donoghue,who is just interested in feathering his own nest.Its time they both got real.

He knows exactly what he's at. The soundbite is an hour a week. I see the senator who is head of a disability saying government should hold firm.

However I really think that conflating cp hours and s and s is unfair. We agreed to haddington road and fulfilled it. They said they would pay us in Sept 16 and Sept 17. By recoiling and adding in an extra condition, I.e. lra, they have broken trust.

It's like a ref in a Gaelic football game deciding that you can't handle the ball 20 minutes in.

feardeas

judeboy101 wrote:

God forbid you show so solidarity with your workmates and take pride in the fact that the FG gov cant rib you of your right to turn try to go to work.

I have and will. I'm talking about colleagues, diesel or petrol costs money.

km79

feardeas wrote: »

I have and will. I'm talking about colleagues, diesel or petrol costs money.

So does childcare etc etc
It's a working day
I don't walk to school
Is it any wonder we have a reputation as moaners !
The govt will break us soon due to short term thinking again