**Nov 2016 Teacher Dispute / See post 1 for Warning **

dory

man_no_plan wrote: »

There are too many irons in the fire at the minute. I know for a fact that the TUI wanted to get the JC tied up before the LRA was up for serious consideration because if they went hand in hand there would have been no concessions. From a TUI point of view all that was asked for was given on the JC. Whether you agree with that or not is another issue. The ASTI leadership at the time did accept the agreement but the members, as they are entitled to do, rejected it.

I think your analysis on it is spot on. The low pay campaign, while admirable, looks kike it was an afterthought.

As for where you are now, there in no consensus on what is right or wrong in the JC or what would make it okay. I'm sure I'll be told how bad it is and so on and that's fine but its a single opinion or two not a consensus. Really ASTI need a special Congress or the like to get their ideas straight, unfortunately I suspect this would be poorly attended and fail to represent the majority. The majority of ASTI chose the current course of action albeit led by the officials etc so its with ten the solution lies.

Completely agree, there are too many irons in the fire as you say. I don't know where this sudden concern for lower paid teachers came from to be honest.

I also agree that the ASTI need some kind of plan regarding the JC. I think half their problem is that we were never properly asked about proposals for a new JC. Personally, I like all of the proposals for my subject. But I don't agree with grading my students.
I think for now, if that one line of the LRA was deleted, this would all be over very quickly.

judeboy101

feardeas wrote: »

Maybe the union could look into that. A strike fund, as other unions have, would be helpful.

Asti don't have a strike fund. They used it all to subsidise copies of Irish times for schools

political analyst

The ASTI's opposition to doing S&S unpaid cannot be worth its members losing several weeks of their salaries.

Eintrachtrob

political analyst wrote: »

The ASTI's opposition to doing S&S unpaid cannot be worth its members losing several weeks of their salaries.

I've said it on here before.

After tomorrow the ASTI should temporarily suspend S&S supervision directive until January, when the DES will have had time to recruit external supervisors.

It keeps the ASTI out of the LRA, and forces the DES into doing something they don't want to do.

It will also expose Bruton as a hypocrite because he won't be asking these external supervisors to do CP hours

implausible

political analyst wrote:

The ASTI's opposition to doing S&S unpaid cannot be worth its members losing several weeks of their salaries.

It's less about opposition to doing s/s unpaid than anger at the Govt for tying payment into the LRA and reneging on a promise to pay for it.

Teachers agreed to do unpaid s/s for several years during the financial crisis with the understanding that it would be restored.

feardeas

judeboy101 wrote: »

Asti don't have a strike fund. They used it all to subsidise copies of Irish times for schools

Great use of it and not sure it happens beyond the pale!!!!!!:D

judeboy101

Wrc we blinked first
http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1107/829656-asti-schools-education/

jayo76

skippy1977 wrote: »

My Problem with the 33 Croke Park Hours...

Mondays 4-5.30 (5th of September to 24th October) - 12 Hours
Applied Maths with kids who like Maths (not on timetable due to budget cuts and reduction in teachers in our school).

Wednesdays 4-5.30 (7th September to 26th October) 12 Hours
Football training with 30 U16 lads from the area.

Free Period before lunch on Fridays (7th September to 28th October) 5.5 Hours
Couple of Leaving Certs come out of RE so that they can get a bit of extra help with Maths.

Last Tuesday (mid term break) - collected bus load of students from school at 9.30 and dropped them back at 14.30 on extra curricular outing.
5 hours

Now that's 34.5 hours (we are only in November) and a serious underestimation of the figure this year... and I'm not counting that almost every free class is photocopying, preparing lessons (okay some some days I run over to the shop for sausage rolls), 2nd half of most lunchtimes is same...or training or sorting the myriad of problems that occur in schools on a daily basis. Evenings correcting copies, updating google classroom (spent couple of hours sending out work today on it, most of my class laughed at me...not sure it has become that critical for them yet...one responded that he was in Magaluf!!) We voluntarily stay in Friday evenings on rotation basis for detention (in our school). An awful lot of teachers are the same, some do far more and yes an awful lot to less, with a very small minority doing nothing. Every staff probably has a few as in lots of workplaces.

But I am not allowed to write off 1 minute of the above towards Croke Park hours. As previously mentioned I spend the Croke Park hours in a room with the rest of the staff watching someone, who obviously didn't like it in the classroom, read a powerpoint of some piece of legislation (that we have already read). By the way teachers are happy to do 12 of the hours via the mechanism that was there before where we did stay late for a couple of PT meetings and a couple of staff meetings and I doubt anyone has a problem of returning to this.

Anyway, love doing all the above...(well maybe not the detention) and I could easily get vexed about people spouting in the media about us not just doing 1 hour a week but I don't because I'm not sure that we'll ever win the argument about what we DO. We don't clock in and clock out. Productivity is NOT increased by Croke Park hours. Money is spent (on speakers) not saved. There is no benefit to students. If anything there is less. Any evening I am staying late watching power points is an evening I don't get to prepare. The next day my energy and enthusiasm is unfortunately diminished and the students lose out (I know poor me...there I've trolled for ye I know my summers make up for it ok....yep I have Easter...ok ok ok...check).

I haven't responded directly to any posts here (well maybe okedoke's about the specificity of my objection to the hours) and I'm not interested in getting into a to and fro. I've been reading to just keep track of any developments really but by the end of this year I'll have worked far more than the 100 hours of other sectors...none of it will be timetabled or officially accounted for but it will have been productive and I won't have asked for 1c for doing it. So yeah that's what I think of the 33 Croke Park hours...
...on the up side one of the Home Ec teachers who I share a picket slot with in the morning (whole other argument) is making buns....so that will be nice. Hopefully the whole thing won't go on too long.

Wish I could like this post a thousand times. Really is pathetic to hear Richard Bruton with his lovely little line that this dispute is all down to teachers not working one measly extra hour a week. Have said before on numerous occasions I have no problem with 26 hours for Croke Park, 6 PT meetings and one staff meeting a term for 4 a year. That is enough for me though, I dont see the point in the other hours, these Literacy and Numeracy staff presentations are a sham as far as I am concerned. And if I have to listen to one more presentation on differentiation which are so general to be rendered useless I will crack up. I will survive and so will the school without formal subject meetings, myself and my colleagues who genuinely care about our subject and our pupils are professional enough to meet in our free periods, over tea, whenever.

For my other hours let me take my last academic year, I trained the school hurling team two hours a week so lets say conservative estimate 50 hours. I organised a trip at Eater for senior cycle History students to Berlin and Krakow, again conservative estimate but maybe 30 hours in the organisation and 100 hours supervision and worry in my role as organiser for the 5 nights we were away. I did the door for the school play for 4 nights, lets say 6 hours. This is not to mention correction, preparation etc or the fact that in my school anyway I am not allowed include the really beneficial evening and weekend lectures organised by the History teachers Association that I have attended as part of my Croke Park Hours.

Now I do these things because genuinely love doing them and feel that they enhance the school experience for pupils, the gratitude of the vast majority of students and their parents who went on the trip last Easter is what makes it all worthwhile, or meeting a student years later who still remembers the u16 hurling medal he won. However do you know what it is slightly galling to listen to Mr. Bruton and his lovely little soundbite that these school closures are all due to me and all those other greedy ungrateful teachers who won't continue working ONE extra hour a week.

jonseyblub

judeboy101 wrote: »

Wrc we blinked first
http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1107/829656-asti-schools-education/

i saw that interview and he never said that he was open to WRC. He kept saying it hasnt been put on the table yet but would review if it was

ethical

I reckon every teacher on here should immediately get in touch with their local TD and ask for a motion of no confidence to be called for on Richard Bruton,he is a total disgrace to office of Minister of Education.

judeboy101

jonseyblub wrote: »

i saw that interview and he never said that he was open to WRC. He kept saying it hasnt been put on the table yet but would review if it was

One day into lockout and the fact he even acknowledges the involvement of the WRC speaks volume to the lack of faith he has in his members to hold the line and keep strong. You know as well as I do that the minute we step into that IR framework we will be ridden raw by the lot of them.

doc_17

I'm getting worried for the ASTI. If it doesn't end well for the ASTI then it will give the government confidence in future dealings.

gaiscioch

judeboy101 wrote: »

Asti don't have a strike fund. They used it all to subsidise copies of Irish times for schools

I never heard anything about a connection between the ASTI and The Irish Times so I hope none of my €335 annual subscription goes to support that newspaper (or any other one).

Villain

ethical wrote: »

I reckon every teacher on here should immediately get in touch with their local TD and ask for a motion of no confidence to be called for on Richard Bruton,he is a total disgrace to office of Minister of Education.

I think he is doing a good job holding out, I pay enough tax and if he gives in to the ASTI the floodgates will open and the Government simply can't afford it and I say this from a household where my wife is a teacher. She earns a decent wage for a tough job with good benefits.

Hearing from a family member who is in ASTI that several other members he spoke to today say they can't hold out for long and they didn't sign up for no pay on an ongoing basis due to S&S. I think Bruton is betting on this!

man_no_plan

The TUI got a Circular published on low hours teachers etc. Maybe the ASTI should demand the sane on croke park hours I.e they cannot be used for x,y,z or a max of 4 hours can be for x.

The 33 hours are probably necessary whether we like it or notbuf used correctly. The problem is that teachers would cut each others throats if someone is seen to get an easier run of it. Like we spkitvthe staff 5 ways for school planning, some people would do anything to get onto the group they see having less work or they try to get all their buddies on the same group and not actually achieve anything in their group.

Their is a professionalism that is needed outside if the classroom in the whole school area too. Why the most experienced people are not given the opportunity to contribute, or sometimes won't take it is beyond me.

Its not as simple as blaming principals or blaming teachers. There needs to be give and take but in some cases there's a them and us.

km79

judeboy101 wrote: »

Wrc we blinked first
http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1107/829656-asti-schools-education/

Would action be suspended whilst WRC talks were ongoing

Eintrachtrob

It's time to stop doing extra curricular activity. Period.

If the DES want to start counting the hours, then we should too. You want 33 hours. You'll get 33 hours and no more.

But teachers are their own worst enemies. . . They won't do it.

maude6868

jonseyblub wrote: »

The thing is that with other public sector workers they just add on time at the end/start of their shift and do the same stuff. Personally speaking I would have had no problem over the last 5 or so years doing an extra hour or whatever teaching or helping kids out but instead I've started to hate my job purely because of those bloody mind-numbingly boring presentations that I've had to endure. They have caused so much tension between management and staff at times that I really feel they have done more harm than good.

This is exactly how I feel. I would have no problem doing an hour a week helping a child who is struggling and has free classes because of reduced curriculum. I would have no problem staying an hour later at school each week to do prep work for classes. In our school Graduation Mass wasn't counted as CP hours so teachers didn't go. Before CP all teachers were voluntarily present. What ruined CP hours was that word 'contemporaneus'. Let me teach, help kids or do prep work and I'd have no problem doing an hour a week.

gaiscioch

man_no_plan wrote: »

The 33 hours are probably necessary whether we like it or notbuf used correctly.

In what way are they necessary? How does a single student benefit from them? In my experience students directly lose from their existence as teachers are not willing to stay back and help them as much as they were before these utterly pointless hours were imposed upon us.

amacca

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

It's time to stop doing extra curricular activity. Period.

If the DES want to start counting the hours, then we should too. You want 33 hours. You'll get 33 hours and no more.

But teachers are their own worst enemies. . . They won't do it.

I agree completely.

Also I don't know if its true but on the news there the reporter said the WRC only intervene in disputes when they see a clear basis for resolution

Wouldn't the Govt honouring the agreement they made to to pay teachers for SS (the small sum it is after tax and considering it was done as agreed for free for three years notwithstanding) be a fine basis for resolution of the SS issue at least.....why is that lost in the reporting...its there in black and white in the agreement for any of these reporters that care to read it.....if the agreements aren't binding then why does any side abide by their terms?

political analyst

Villain wrote: »

I think he is doing a good job holding out, I pay enough tax and if he gives in to the ASTI the floodgates will open and the Government simply can't afford it and I say this from a household where my wife is a teacher. She earns a decent wage for a tough job with good benefits.

Hearing from a family member who is in ASTI that several other members he spoke to today say they can't hold out for long and they didn't sign up for no pay on an ongoing basis due to S&S. I think Bruton is betting on this!

Indeed.

Doing S&S unpaid is better than being locked out and not being paid at all. Byrne and Christie need to reconsider the S&S directive.

amacca

political analyst wrote: »

Indeed.

Doing S&S unpaid is better than being locked out and not being paid at all. Byrne and Christie need to reconsider the S&S directive.

How about the Govt reconsider its decision not to honour the terms of the agreement (seeing as the teachers have) or in future run the risk of having any parties to agreements regard them as the meaningless documents they will become.

Eintrachtrob

amacca wrote: »

I agree completely.

Also I don't know if its true but on the news there the reporter said the WRC only intervene in disputes when they see a clear basis for resolution

Wouldn't the Govt honouring the agreement they made to to pay teachers for SS (the small sum it is after tax and considering it was done as agreed for free for three years notwithstanding) be a fine basis for resolution of the SS issue at least.....why is that lost in the reporting...its there in black and white in the agreement for any of these reporters that care to read it.....if the agreements aren't binding then why does any side abide by their terms?

Bruton/DES want the 33 hours because that means the ASTI are then effectively in the LRA.

There will be NO compromise from them. Zero, Nada.
They don't give a f**k about what was in the Haddington Road Agreement.

So the choice is simple for the ASTI?
Sign up for the 33 hours and do LRA, or stay out of both.

ASTI reps should go in tomorrow and say.
Are you going to pay for S&S? Yes or No?

If the DES mention "only if you sign up for the CP hours", then the ASTI should get up and walk out. Announce a suspension until January on the S&S directive and move on.

gaiscioch

maude6868 wrote: »

This is exactly how I feel. I would have no problem doing an hour a week helping a child who is struggling and has free classes because of reduced curriculum.

This. 100%. The most rewarding part of teaching by a long shot. 33 hours spent helping weaker kids would change lives. I know because I used to give (substantially) more than that when I was foolish enough to encourage JC kids to do the optional oral in the full knowledge that, because of the dysfunctional "mixed ability" (ha!) classes, after school classes would be essential. Watching those kids grow through the year was a brilliant feeling. You were making a difference, and you knew it. Contrast that with the utter bullshít of the "reform" Croke Park Hours and words fail me.

amacca

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

If the DES mention "only if you sign up for the CP hours", then the ASTI should get up and walk out. Announce a suspension until January on the S&S directive and move on.

I would disagree strongly there due to the principle of the thing......so maybe that would be a mistake on my part but I really don't think where the Govt have clearly gone back on an agreement that they expected teachers to dot every i and cross every t of (which they duly did) should be let fade into the background...

It sets a very bad precedent that an agreement which was abided by in good faith by one side could be reneged on so easily by another and then the whole thing brushed under the carpet......what the hell is the point of any agreement then?

man_no_plan

gaiscioch wrote: »

In what way are they necessary? How does a single student benefit from them? In my experience students directly lose from their existence as teachers are not willing to stay back and help them as much as they were before these utterly pointless hours were imposed upon us.

Look at all the meetings that had schools closing for half days etc. Having those outside class time is necessary imo.

When I was in school it closed for the day for PTMs. Are you telling me we should go back to that? That theres no need for collaborative planning? That its good enough to land in in September and close your door behind you for the year?

Im talking about doing stuff that can improve the school and improve what students get from school. Part of that is definitely in extra curricular yes, but part of it is working together to tweak things that aren't right.

man_no_plan

amacca wrote: »

I would disagree strongly there due to the principle of the thing......so maybe that would be a mistake on my part but I really don't think where the Govt have clearly gone back on an agreement that they expected teachers to dot every i and cross every t of (which they duly did) should be let fade into the background...

It sets a very bad precedent that an agreement which was abided by in good faith by one side could be reneged on so easily by another and then the whole thing brushed under the carpet......what the hell is the point of any agreement then?

At this stage you're dead right you're too far in now. You should be getting paid if you're doing the work. No doubt about it.

If the JC could be squared then the 33hours and s/s could be sorted too.

All that's wanted here is imagination. I hope its sorted soon because its going to get very tough I think.

I remember when I was union rep first in school, I did it for 10 years. We had a big dispute with the then principal. There was talking and bitching and moaning and several meetings. At a staff meeting then I raised this issue, as a young niave teacher, and outlined the concerns we had and so on in a clear way that was uncritical (Insofar as you can be when youre telling someone their idea is a pile of dung) and I stopped and waited for the cavalry to support me. Let's just say I'm still waiting. Thankfully the boss saw it for what it was. The idea was scrapped after Because I kept pursuing it and the area rep was involved after that. But if i was relying on solidarity from the staffroom I wasn't going to get it. I pursued it because it was very wrong, very unfair to teachers and completely outside the terms of any contract. Think croke park hours back in 2004.

I think that this is a bit like that. You have sound interested people listening to the legitimate concerns of colleagues but as soon as the going gets tough they are going to cut and run. And who is left holding the baby? The leadership were probably a bit foolish in how they let this play out. But you're in now and thats that you need to see this out, if croke park hours are humiliating what will this be??

The ASTI need to get a message to all school reps to rally the troops each morning at the gates and to lay out a plan. You are all oved the place atm. When we did the jc strikes every teacher in our school had the press release in their hand and could outline the issues. Even on here, where people are interested, there is a lack of coherence. Filter that out to the uninterested and disaffected.

Job two in this is to temporarily lift the ban on principals and DPs doing the hiring of staff for supervision or get BOMs to hire a recently retired teacher to do the interviews for supervisors and do the rota to supervise (Principal is key to this as Sec to the BOM) Let them organise the SNAs and pay them to watch the corridors at lunch and let them supervise also, they have 35 hours or something under the LRA that theyd be glad to spend and get out in june when this is all over. Shut off some areas as out of bounds at break and lunch. Get a sub in every day in case you need them, you'll find the hours to pay them somewhere, theres money there for subbing anyway. Maybe the P DP and A Post people will take it in turns to be in strategically placed offices at lunch to deal with discipline (that wouldn't be s)s) so that the wheels dont come off.

Get the schools open. Then cancel all sport and extra curricular as you have no supervision. No young scientists, no football, etc. Id go a step furtger and continue to train all teams and prepare all students for competitions but be unable to attend them. Let parents drive to the debating competitions or whatever.

Im sitting here with a sick child half asleep beside me in the sofa and i can come up with a strategy. its not perfect im sure, but its ok for half eleven on a Monday night. what have the Asti been at?

Get your asses onto the moral high ground, fast, and then let the pressure build the other way. Right now its all on you.

worseforwear

man_no_plan wrote: »

There was a big push from the unions at the time of croke park against the use of the hours as a teaching hour. This was to protect the jobs of teachers. In a school of 40 teachers it would account for two Whole time equivalent teachers whose jobs would have been lost.

Making the hours be used for CPD etc was about reducing the erosion of teaching time for student. Before croke park we regularly had half days for meetings about this that or the other. I can't say that the content of staff meetings has become any more or less interesting since these hours.

My sums on the 33 hours go like this, apologies if you've seen this before but I think this is a reasonable use of the time. For clarity I will add the m58/04 hours. Back in the day we got 1 1/2 % or something under sustaining progress, I think it was, to do the hours. Interestingly as the TUI and possibility the ASTI had a history of rejecting these agreement s as they increased workload etc but they were carried in by an ICTU majority. In any case the 3 x PTM count for 9 hours and the three two-hour staff meetings are half in half out. In croke park the 3 hours in school could be bought out reducing the CP hours to 30 plus 12 from ptms and half out to give 42 hours in total.

So here we go....

1 day meeting at beginning of school year = 6 hours

5, possibly 6 x 3hr ptms = 15 / 18 hours

One staff meeting per term 3 x 2 = 6 hours

Open night = 3 hours
Awards night / grad / whatever you do in your school at the end of the year = 3 hours

Subject planning, 1 hour per subject per term = 6 hours

Total 39 or 42 hours depending on the no of ptms.

As I said before, how schools have time for all of these expert visits I will never know. However I do know in some smaller schools there may be only 3 ptms but that's only 9 hours. I can think of 10 ways to use these productively apart from having speakers in on them.

I don't mind saying that they have become very divisive within the staff. We don't count any hours for external CPD, for example, because there was a huge row one year over everyone being allowed to count two hours but everyone not doing done external CPD. That kind of **** is what has principals making up busy stuff because as soon as there was discretion there were a number who tried to ride the system and they ruin it for everyone.

But, the above us how we do it and it works well. Nobody loves the meetings but we get work done in them and things move on. Maybe if there was a change in mindset on both sides it would help. Perhaps the JMB need to talk to principals about creative and productive meetings and letting teachers take responsibility for school planning and development and not be micro managing everything. As you know I am in an ETB, maybe the approach is different so there aren't the same issues with the 'demoralisation' and 'insults to my professional ism' among teachers because they are actively involved?

Very good post. I agree regarding cp hours, there should be more discretion and flexibility around how they are managed. And it is the few staff who take the lend in schools who destroy the process for everybody. i know in our school last year that a good number of staff didn't complete the 5 flexible hours and 2 teachers only did 17 hours for the year, excusing themselves for all sorts of reasons. This is something that the asti could address among its members.

man_no_plan

worseforwear wrote: »

. i know in our school last year that a good number of staff didn't complete the 5 flexible hours and 2 teachers only did 17 hours for the year, excusing themselves for all sorts of reasons. This is something that the asti could address among its members.

In any other job, regardless of your opinion of the hours, you'd be in difficulty over this.

In the age of accountability the easy option is always going to be one size fits all. Where there are grey areas people will try to get out of stuff. Its not a teacher thing its human nature.

Nobody ducked out of the m58/04 hours. Its because these are unpaid that theres resentment. Its because theres resentment theres a lack of buy in. Because of the lack of buy in theres rigidity. Viscious circle.

amacca

man_no_plan wrote: »

At this stage you're dead right you're too far in now. You should be getting paid if you're doing the work. No doubt about it.

If the JC could be squared then the 33hours and s/s could be sorted too.

All that's wanted here is imagination. I hope its sorted soon because its going to get very tough I think.

I remember when I was union rep first in school, I did it for 10 years. We had a big dispute with the then principal. There was talking and bitching and moaning and several meetings. At a staff meeting then I raised this issue, as a young niave teacher, and outlined the concerns we had and so on in a clear way that was uncritical (Insofar as you can be when youre telling someone their idea is a pile of dung) and I stopped and waited for the cavalry to support me. Let's just say I'm still waiting. Thankfully the boss saw it for what it was. The idea was scrapped after Because I kept pursuing it and the area rep was involved after that. But if i was relying on solidarity from the staffroom I wasn't going to get it. I pursued it because it was very wrong, very unfair to teachers and completely outside the terms of any contract. Think croke park hours back in 2004.

I think that this is a bit like that. You have sound interested people listening to the legitimate concerns of colleagues but as soon as the going gets tough they are going to cut and run. And who is left holding the baby? The leadership were probably a bit foolish in how they let this play out. But you're in now and thats that you need to see this out, if croke park hours are humiliating what will this be??

The ASTI need to get a message to all school reps to rally the troops each morning at the gates and to lay out a plan. You are all oved the place atm. When we did the jc strikes every teacher in our school had the press release in their hand and could outline the issues. Even on here, where people are interested, there is a lack of coherence. Filter that out to the uninterested and disaffected.

Job two in this is to temporarily lift the ban on principals and DPs doing the hiring of staff for supervision or get BOMs to hire a recently retired teacher to do the interviews for supervisors and do the rota to supervise (Principal is key to this as Sec to the BOM) Let them organise the SNAs and pay them to watch the corridors at lunch and let them supervise also, they have 35 hours or something under the LRA that theyd be glad to spend and get out in june when this is all over. Shut off some areas as out of bounds at break and lunch. Get a sub in every day in case you need them, you'll find the hours to pay them somewhere, theres money there for subbing anyway. Maybe the P DP and A Post people will take it in turns to be in strategically placed offices at lunch to deal with discipline (that wouldn't be s)s) so that the wheels dont come off.

Get the schools open. Then cancel all sport and extra curricular as you have no supervision. No young scientists, no football, etc. Id go a step furtger and continue to train all teams and prepare all students for competitions but be unable to attend them. Let parents drive to the debating competitions or whatever.

Im sitting here with a sick child half asleep beside me in the sofa and i can come up with a strategy. its not perfect im sure, but its ok for half eleven on a Monday night. what have the Asti been at?

Get your asses onto the moral high ground, fast, and then let the pressure build the other way. Right now its all on you.

It seems like a good plan to me at half eleven on a Monday....maybe a little tweaking required but boxing clever in the main imo particularly the extracurricular (if people could be trusted to toe the line on that one)