**Nov 2016 Teacher Dispute / See post 1 for Warning **

Iused2likebusts

man_no_plan wrote: »

At this stage you're dead right you're too far in now. You should be getting paid if you're doing the work. No doubt about it.

If the JC could be squared then the 33hours and s/s could be sorted too.

All that's wanted here is imagination. I hope its sorted soon because its going to get very tough I think.

I remember when I was union rep first in school, I did it for 10 years. We had a big dispute with the then principal. There was talking and bitching and moaning and several meetings. At a staff meeting then I raised this issue, as a young niave teacher, and outlined the concerns we had and so on in a clear way that was uncritical (Insofar as you can be when youre telling someone their idea is a pile of dung) and I stopped and waited for the cavalry to support me. Let's just say I'm still waiting. Thankfully the boss saw it for what it was. The idea was scrapped after Because I kept pursuing it and the area rep was involved after that. But if i was relying on solidarity from the staffroom I wasn't going to get it. I pursued it because it was very wrong, very unfair to teachers and completely outside the terms of any contract. Think croke park hours back in 2004.

I think that this is a bit like that. You have sound interested people listening to the legitimate concerns of colleagues but as soon as the going gets tough they are going to cut and run. And who is left holding the baby? The leadership were probably a bit foolish in how they let this play out. But you're in now and thats that you need to see this out, if croke park hours are humiliating what will this be??

The ASTI need to get a message to all school reps to rally the troops each morning at the gates and to lay out a plan. You are all oved the place atm. When we did the jc strikes every teacher in our school had the press release in their hand and could outline the issues. Even on here, where people are interested, there is a lack of coherence. Filter that out to the uninterested and disaffected.

Job two in this is to temporarily lift the ban on principals and DPs doing the hiring of staff for supervision or get BOMs to hire a recently retired teacher to do the interviews for supervisors and do the rota to supervise (Principal is key to this as Sec to the BOM) Let them organise the SNAs and pay them to watch the corridors at lunch and let them supervise also, they have 35 hours or something under the LRA that theyd be glad to spend and get out in june when this is all over. Shut off some areas as out of bounds at break and lunch. Get a sub in every day in case you need them, you'll find the hours to pay them somewhere, theres money there for subbing anyway. Maybe the P DP and A Post people will take it in turns to be in strategically placed offices at lunch to deal with discipline (that wouldn't be s)s) so that the wheels dont come off.

Get the schools open. Then cancel all sport and extra curricular as you have no supervision. No young scientists, no football, etc. Id go a step furtger and continue to train all teams and prepare all students for competitions but be unable to attend them. Let parents drive to the debating competitions or whatever.

Im sitting here with a sick child half asleep beside me in the sofa and i can come up with a strategy. its not perfect im sure, but its ok for half eleven on a Monday night. what have the Asti been at?

Get your asses onto the moral high ground, fast, and then let the pressure build the other way. Right now its all on you.

some great ideas there.

man_no_plan

amacca wrote: »

It seems like a good plan to me at half eleven on a Monday....maybe a little tweaking required but boxing clever in the main imo particularly the extracurricular (if people could be trusted to toe the line on that one)

I don't think ye should have gotten into this situation but the union man in me says play at their own game. Maybe i should have stayed in the union route rather go into management.

Its simple, you don't cover their classes to let them go to matches etc. sometimes certain things need to be pointed out to certain people. Continuation of training etc does away with the nitiin of laziness. Theres not an infinite pot of money if lunch supervision has to be paid for and a sub will be needed to be paid for uncertified leave also.

The only thing id be wary of is the OLCS. Youd need to record the uncertified leave against the sub so im not sure would the DES get proper dirty and sag we only pay for certified leave.

TheDriver

The withdrawal of extracurricular activities is always something that gets mentioned but theres a number of things about it:
1) It depends on the school. Some schools would be horrified if you withdrew your involvement whilst others it wouldn't make much of a difference but I don't think it would have the desired effect overall. Parents would still send their kids to the school to prepare for state exams etc etc and nothing more would come of it. Of course its important to development of the child but it won't close schools and it won't affect Bruton
2) I like and enjoy extracurricular activities that I organise. It keeps the day interesting and if I had to withdraw from them, it would make the job a lot less interesting
If I couple 1 + 2 above, I think its ourselves that will loose out as its not really leverage or disruptive.

TheDriver

man_no_plan wrote: »

you don't cover their classes to let them go to matches etc.

I'd say if that happened once in a staffroom, the infighting would go on for 10 years and cause factions amongst staff

man_no_plan

TheDriver wrote: »

I'd say if that happened once in a staffroom, the infighting would go on for 10 years and cause factions amongst staff

Yeah, probably. But it's s/s?

Just the musings of a tired man....

TheDriver

man_no_plan wrote: »

Yeah, probably. But it's s/s?

Just the musings of a tired man....

Its just the idea of making colleagues do things, it unfortunately wouldn't be taken in the spirit that you meant and have the opposite effect of causing internal friction. The S&S part is for management to cover classes etc, the reason for it is another matter

man_no_plan

TheDriver wrote: »

Its just the idea of making colleagues do things, it unfortunately wouldn't be taken in the spirit that you meant and have the opposite effect of causing internal friction. The S&S part is for management to cover classes etc, the reason for it is another matter

Yeah i see where you're coming from 100%. It comes back to my point about coherence. If thres a ban on s/s that should be the end of it. But it never is.

The issues are too many and too diverse. Not everyone who cares about one cares about them all.

jonseyblub

worseforwear wrote: »

V i know in our school last year that a good number of staff didn't complete the 5 flexible hours and 2 teachers only did 17 hours for the year, excusing themselves for all sorts of reasons. This is something that the asti could address among its members.

I'm sorry but thats a management issue that needs to be dealt with fairly sharpish. Using that as a reason for not being flexible with CP hours is IMO a cop out.

man_no_plan

jonseyblub wrote: »

I'm sorry but thats a management issue that needs to be dealt with fairly sharpish. Using that as a reason for not being flexible with CP hours is IMO a cop out.

Thats fine jonsey. As soon as you say anything the school steward is all over it or the offended party is relaying the stiry around the staffroom duly edited to suit them. People will politely nod and agree giving support to undermining the whole thing.

Give me an example of what a principal can actually do? They probably try to keep the peace and ride out the storm of croke park hours because long after we manage to get them whittled away people will remember and resent the implication that they were less than perfect. Bullying is the first accusation usually.

It seems all the problems lie with weak principals.

jonseyblub

man_no_plan wrote: »

Thats fine jonsey. As soon as you say anything the school steward is all over it or the offended party is relaying the stiry around the staffroom duly edited to suit them. People will politely nod and agree giving support to undermining the whole thing.

Give me an example of what a principal can actually do? They probably try to keep the peace and ride out the storm of croke park hours because long after we manage to get them whittled away people will remember and resent the implication that they were less than perfect. Bullying is the first accusation usually.

It seems all the problems lie with weak principals.

I'm sorry but if people in the staff get annoyed that you are pulling someone up on not doing their required CP hours then that is their problem. When you ask what a principal should do I would simply point out to the person that we all hate doing them but they need to be done. End of. I think you will find that there will be more people behind you than against you on that one.
Like it or not the department have put the principal in charge of ensuring that they are done.
If its a choice between having a mostly contented staff because you are allowing flexibility vs reminding a grown adult of their responsibilities, I really think its a no brainier.

Dylan94

Am I missing something or did the government originally say that they would need about 5 weeks notice to get alternative arrangements for s&s? That was about 5 weeks ago?

Have they actually done anything to try to organise alternative s&s?

Bass Reeves

I wonder how the ASTI got themselves into this mess.They have walked themselves into an industrial dispute that they cannot win or that the Government cannot let them win. From an outside perspective it look like a group of well paid professionals are trying to hold the educational system to ransom. It is immaterial to a lot of ordinary people whether ASTI teachers feel aggrieved over what has happened to them because of the 2008/2014 recession. These same people have suffered as well.

The ASTI has a history of adgitation and unwillingness to accept what seems a fair agreement to others. It has to be remembered that 90% of public servants have accepted LRA (through gritted teeth) and it is where they stand at present. Just because ASTI saw fit to reject is not an acceptable reason to Joe Public for the present ASTI action.

ASTI has to understand that LRA is the only show in town. Even the opposition know that is the case with the exception of nutty left who know they will not be in power so can take any position they like when they know that they will not have to pay the piper.

The government called the ASTI out by insisting it will not pay teachers that do not perform there full duties. These duties are acceptable to other teacher unions. The ASTI have a choice go on an all out strike or talk turkey with regard to the LRA. There is no magic bullet like what was available to Bertie and co who could throw money at any problem from 2002-2007 and who still were throwing money around like confetti even as the tide went out.

If the ASTI members go on an all out strike do they think the government will cave in. This is the question they have to ask. They also have to ask themselves if Joe Public supports them. There is no longer an acceptance of quasi strike and still getting paid. In other words it a case of put up or shut up by either accepting LRA or going on all out strike.

If the ASTI go on all out strike Happy Christmas to them.

judeboy101

Again this morning another asti person (de paor) puts forward idea of 3rd party intervention. Asti are desperate if they are sounding this out so early

paddybarry

judeboy101 wrote: »

Again this morning another asti person (de paor) puts forward idea of 3rd party intervention. Asti are desperate if they are sounding this out so early

I disagree. Think ASTI is looking to be reasonable. Getting an independent and fair opinion on the issues is vital to a resolution. The WRC offers this. ASTI leadership can then put any proposals to membership. This is best way to determine what happens next e.g. is the appetite still there for continued industrial action if proposals are not to satisfaction of membership.

TheDriver

paddybarry wrote: »

I disagree. Think ASTI is looking to be reasonable. Getting an independent and fair opinion on the issues is vital to a resolution. The WRC offers this. ASTI leadership can then put any proposals to membership. This is best way to determine what happens next e.g. is the appetite still there for continued industrial action if proposals are not to satisfaction of membership.

Plus get a 3rd party to go through the promised S&S payment thats on a circular, its hard to deny that

man_no_plan

TheDriver wrote: »

Plus get a 3rd party to go through the promised S&S payment thats on a circular, its hard to deny that

The WRC will be keen to get everyone on to the LRA too though. The TUI agreement was hammered out there so they might not want to depart too much. It could be the key to the resolution of this though.

deiseindublin

Bass Reeves wrote: »

ASTI has to understand that LRA is the only show in town.

Why do ASTI have to understand this. GRA negotiations show that it's a crock of **** and concession can be made. Why ballot at all if that's the case?

I'm so sick of that tired statement.

judeboy101

paddybarry wrote: »

I disagree. Think ASTI is looking to be reasonable. Getting an independent and fair opinion on the issues is vital to a resolution. The WRC offers this. ASTI leadership can then put any proposals to membership. This is best way to determine what happens next e.g. is the appetite still there for continued industrial action if proposals are not to satisfaction of membership.

Wrc and lc are government animals. They lost all my trust when Kieran mulvey showed his true colours last year

okedoke

skippy1977 wrote: »

My Problem with the 33 Croke Park Hours...

Mondays 4-5.30 (5th of September to 24th October) - 12 Hours
Applied Maths with kids who like Maths (not on timetable due to budget cuts and reduction in teachers in our school).

Wednesdays 4-5.30 (7th September to 26th October) 12 Hours
Football training with 30 U16 lads from the area.

Free Period before lunch on Fridays (7th September to 28th October) 5.5 Hours
Couple of Leaving Certs come out of RE so that they can get a bit of extra help with Maths.

Last Tuesday (mid term break) - collected bus load of students from school at 9.30 and dropped them back at 14.30 on extra curricular outing.
5 hours

Now that's 34.5 hours (we are only in November) and a serious underestimation of the figure this year... and I'm not counting that almost every free class is photocopying, preparing lessons (okay some some days I run over to the shop for sausage rolls), 2nd half of most lunchtimes is same...or training or sorting the myriad of problems that occur in schools on a daily basis. Evenings correcting copies, updating google classroom (spent couple of hours sending out work today on it, most of my class laughed at me...not sure it has become that critical for them yet...one responded that he was in Magaluf!!) We voluntarily stay in Friday evenings on rotation basis for detention (in our school). An awful lot of teachers are the same, some do far more and yes an awful lot to less, with a very small minority doing nothing. Every staff probably has a few as in lots of workplaces.

But I am not allowed to write off 1 minute of the above towards Croke Park hours. As previously mentioned I spend the Croke Park hours in a room with the rest of the staff watching someone, who obviously didn't like it in the classroom, read a powerpoint of some piece of legislation (that we have already read). By the way teachers are happy to do 12 of the hours via the mechanism that was there before where we did stay late for a couple of PT meetings and a couple of staff meetings and I doubt anyone has a problem of returning to this.

Anyway, love doing all the above...(well maybe not the detention) and I could easily get vexed about people spouting in the media about us not just doing 1 hour a week but I don't because I'm not sure that we'll ever win the argument about what we DO. We don't clock in and clock out. Productivity is NOT increased by Croke Park hours. Money is spent (on speakers) not saved. There is no benefit to students. If anything there is less. Any evening I am staying late watching power points is an evening I don't get to prepare. The next day my energy and enthusiasm is unfortunately diminished and the students lose out (I know poor me...there I've trolled for ye I know my summers make up for it ok....yep I have Easter...ok ok ok...check).

I haven't responded directly to any posts here (well maybe okedoke's about the specificity of my objection to the hours) and I'm not interested in getting into a to and fro. I've been reading to just keep track of any developments really but by the end of this year I'll have worked far more than the 100 hours of other sectors...none of it will be timetabled or officially accounted for but it will have been productive and I won't have asked for 1c for doing it. So yeah that's what I think of the 33 Croke Park hours...
...on the up side one of the Home Ec teachers who I share a picket slot with in the morning (whole other argument) is making buns....so that will be nice. Hopefully the whole thing won't go on too long.

As a non-teacher, I think its completely unreasonable to make someone doing all that extra (unpaid) work do additional useless hours. But, I do think that pt meetings should happen outside hours and that subject planning meetings are important. The problem is that many teachers don't take on that level (or any) extra curricular roles I presume. A system of counting extra curricular hours would be fair but how do you deal with those who don't want to do any extra curricular?

implausible

deiseindublin wrote:

Why do ASTI have to understand this. GRA negotiations show that it's a crock of **** and concession can be made. Why ballot at all if that's the case?

I'm so sick of that tired statement.

Concessions have already been made to teachers - TUI and INTO. Money is on the table for LPTs, as well as the increase in discretionary CP hours and a commitment to reviewing middle management. What ASTI are looking for now is extra concessions on top of those already accepted by the other two unions.

I think that the stunt the Govt. pulled with the s/s money was despicable and sneaky and the ASTI should stand up for themselves with it. But the other issues - LPTs, CP hours, JC reform - have all seen progress in the last while, slow and incremental, but progress nonetheless.

siulach

okedoke wrote: »

The problem is that many teachers don't take on that level (or any) extra curricular roles I presume

You'd be surprised. In my experience, most teachers do at least some extra curricular activities or give students extra time. For instance, language teachers meet students to practice for oral exams, teachers often spend extra time helping students with projects for practical subjects, science teachers have Young Scientist, business teachers are often involved in Young Entrepreneur, with music, PE and religion teachers often contributing huge amounts of time to school activities like school ceremonies and sports. Yet, not one of these activities are recognised by Croke Park,
and this has eroded a lot of goodwill. And the minority of teachers who do none of the above are often the very ones who do the bare minimum at the CP meetings, so the majority of us are hit twice. To be honest though, I think most parents (and indeed students) acknowledge and respect the extra work.

oppenheimer1

paddybarry wrote: »

I disagree. Think ASTI is looking to be reasonable. Getting an independent and fair opinion on the issues is vital to a resolution. The WRC offers this. ASTI leadership can then put any proposals to membership. This is best way to determine what happens next e.g. is the appetite still there for continued industrial action if proposals are not to satisfaction of membership.

Nonsense, ASTI are looking for a way out because they are in a very weak position going on an all out in November. So what they'll do is they will go into WRC and call off the action for the moment. They will then negotiate a new deal which will go to a vote in January with a recommendation from high command that it be rejected and then we will see industrial action for March and the state exams will be threatened.

okedoke

siulach wrote: »

You'd be surprised. In my experience, most teachers do at least some extra curricular activities or give students extra time. For instance, language teachers meet students to practice for oral exams, teachers often spend extra time helping students with projects for practical subjects, science teachers have Young Scientist, business teachers are often involved in Young Entrepreneur, with music, PE and religion teachers often contributing huge amounts of time to school activities like school ceremonies and sports. Yet, not one of these activities are recognised by Croke Park,
and this has eroded a lot of goodwill. And the minority of teachers who do none of the above are often the very ones who do the bare minimum at the CP meetings, so the majority of us are hit twice. To be honest though, I think most parents (and indeed students) acknowledge and respect the extra work.

I believe you but as in every profession, I've no doubt there are a minority of those who would take the opportunity of non-compulsory CP hours to simply avoid them. I say this as a public servant, most of whose colleagues work hard but some of whose don't. I think other public servants and the public at large would balk at allowing this group be the only one in the PS not to have to work extra CP hours.

km79

Go to the WRC
Agree to suspend industrial action in return for deferral of pay deductions until WRC talks finish up
Face saver for everyone and the kids get back to school
We are going NOWHERE as it is

Powerhouse

TheDriver wrote: »

The withdrawal of extracurricular activities is always something that gets mentioned but theres a number of things about it:
1) It depends on the school. Some schools would be horrified if you withdrew your involvement whilst others it wouldn't make much of a difference but I don't think it would have the desired effect overall. Parents would still send their kids to the school to prepare for state exams etc etc and nothing more would come of it. Of course its important to development of the child but it won't close schools and it won't affect Bruton
2) I like and enjoy extracurricular activities that I organise. It keeps the day interesting and if I had to withdraw from them, it would make the job a lot less interesting
If I couple 1 + 2 above, I think its ourselves that will loose out as its not really leverage or disruptive.

I would tend to agree with this. And I am someone who has pulled out of all extra curricular since the CP hours came into being.

My school would be nominally a big sporting school but when you strip back that veneer there"s probably less than 10 per cent of kids involved in sport. They will all gave access to sport in clubs etc. so they'll plough on. I remember that there was no hurling in my school in my own LC year because of a local dispute and it bothers me far more looking back than it did at the time.

Does anyone think that the likes of Bruton, Varadker and the rest would care less if there was no extra curricular? Extra curricular has no political leverage. In fact if extra curricular was dropped there would be far less class disruption for kids and (to say the unpopular) far less requirement for substitution for some teachers who are out quite a lot at matches.

Powerhouse

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Nonsense, ASTI are looking for a way out

.

I would hope sincerely that ALL parties are "looking for a way out". Why on earth would anyone wish to prolong the situation?

Iused2likebusts

Powerhouse wrote: »

I would tend to agree with this. And I am someone who has pulled out of all extra curricular since the CP hours came into being.

My school would be nominally a big sporting school but when you strip back that veneer there"s probably less than 10 per cent of kids involved in sport. They will all gave access to sport in clubs etc. so they'll plough on. I remember that there was no hurling in my school in my own LC year because of a local dispute and it bothers me far more looking back than it did at the time.

Does anyone think that the likes of Bruton, Varadker and the rest would care less if there was no extra curricular? Extra curricular has no political leverage. In fact if extra curricular was dropped there would be far less class disruption for kids and (to say the unpopular) far less requirement for substitution for some teachers who are out quite a lot at matches.

I think the hope would be likes of the gaa and Fai would then put pressure on the government. However I can't see any of the rugby schools ever agreeing to do this. Even though I think it would be a great weapon to use.

Chilli Con Kearney

okedoke wrote: »

I believe you but as in every profession, I've no doubt there are a minority of those who would take the opportunity of non-compulsory CP hours to simply avoid them. I say this as a public servant, most of whose colleagues work hard but some of whose don't. I think other public servants and the public at large would balk at allowing this group be the only one in the PS not to have to work extra CP hours.

The guards haven't been doing the CP hours for quite some time now.

km79

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

The guards haven't been doing the CP hours for quite some time now.

This seems to have blissfully ignored by all and sundry
Media
Ministers
Everyone

coillsaille

ASTI standing committee is to meet this afternoon so I suppose we'll see later this evening if anything significant comes from that.

Regarding the lockout situation, from what I hear various BOMs seem to be calling meetings to look at bringing in 6th yrs, using vetted people already in the school as supers and subs. So I would expect the amount of schools on lockout will have gone down a bit by tomorrow and even more by Thursday. If all schools could do this it would be really beneficial. We get to teach our LCs so they don't lose out on any more tuition time and also we then won't have to make up for as much time lost. The LCs and their parents will be a lot happier, and the DES have to pay us if we're teaching.