**Nov 2016 Teacher Dispute / See post 1 for Warning **

Powerhouse

Fian wrote: »

https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0071_2016.pdf



8. In the case of teachers paid on payrolls operated by this Department and in order to facilitate the appropriate pay deduction(s), where a school is not in a position to open for students as a result of the withdrawal of teachers from their duties relating to S&S, teachers who have not confirmed their availability for the full range of duties including S&S duties (i.e. who have not submitted a completed and signed form to the Principal of their school) must be recorded as absent. Overpayments of salary will be recovered in accordance with Circular 0084/2015.

I can't see any reference in that document to "open for some students", or any mention of being partially open. It mentions being "open for students" several times without further specificity.

Powerhouse

feardeas wrote: »

Second day on the picket and by God it was a wet one. Just taking a brief look at what's going on here.

Have heard that standing committee are meeting today and may have something from that. There seems to be some talk about change in CP hours, in so far as that as long as PTM and staff meetings are all outside of school time then the Dept don't seem to be too pushed about how they are used. It would seem that about 15 could be used at teacher's discretion. Perhaps for extra curricular/planning/marking etc. Personally I think that wouldn't be too bad. I spent three hours correcting essays last week, sure that's a bloody fifth of them gone already. I'd guarantee that there are many teachers that would have 15 extra hours done by the middle of September not to mind over the year and guess what we have to do that i.e. preparation and marking id we're anyway serious about the job and I think most of us are. Not to talk of all the time on extra curricular.

There are times when a teachers would do 15 extra hours in a week never mind a year. We have been doing extra hours for years anyway, it's just the notion that we have to sit in a room with five others for two hours coming up with a school mission statement or new crest is where the resentment arises. Nobody would object to PTMs being outside school.

Peppa Pig

There seems to be some talk about change in CP hours, in so far as that as long as PTM and staff meetings are all outside of school time then the Dept don't seem to be too pushed about how they are used.

I have heard nothing about movement on the new teachers salary - is that not why teachers were on strike today?
Even on here all the discussion is about CP and extra hours and getting paid for S&S. What exactly are ASTI and the Dept talking about?
It's very confusing.

Fian

Powerhouse wrote: »

I can't see any reference in that document to "open for some students", or any mention of being partially open. It mentions being "open for students" several times without further specificity.

yes - sorry I should perhaps have been clearer when I stuck "open for some students" in quotes. I was just trying to illustrate a concept distinct from the "open for students" used in the circular - which actually I hadn't seen until you asked for it and i used google - prior to that i was quoting from another post.

Anyway I was not intending to suggest that phrase was used in the circular, I was contrasting that phrase with the "open for students" actually employed in the circular.

judeboy101

Peppa Pig wrote: »

I have heard nothing about movement on the new teachers salary - is that not why teachers were on strike today?
Even on here all the discussion is about CP and extra hours and getting paid for S&S. What exactly are ASTI and the Dept talking about?
It's very confusing.

Dept are refusing to discuss pay parity now or even post 2018. Did you not hear our dear leader at leaders questions? He dodged pay parity questions like neo dodges bullets!!!

Peppa Pig

judeboy101 wrote: »

Dept are refusing to discuss pay parity now or even post 2018. Did you not hear our dear leader at leaders questions? He dodged pay parity questions like neo dodges bullets!!!

No I didn't.

So what are the ASTI talking about in all the discussions about the strike?

Powerhouse

Fian wrote: »

yes - sorry I should perhaps have been clearer when I stuck "open for some students" in quotes. I was just trying to illustrate a concept distinct from the "open for students" used in the circular - which actually I hadn't seen until you asked for it and i used google - prior to that i was quoting from another post.

Anyway I was not intending to suggest that phrase was used in the circular, I was contrasting that phrase with the "open for students" actually employed in the circular.

Fair enough, but as far as I am aware there is no documented distinction between 'open for all' and 'open for some' so I'm not sure it's an argument even the Department would try to sustain. As things stand it seems that a school open for even limited numbers of students would be considered open.

judeboy101

Peppa Pig wrote: »

No I didn't.

So what are the ASTI talking about in all the discussions about the strike?

They are talking about all 4issues but dept keep saying "33hrs, inside LR" basically everything you hear Bruton say. But they refuse to acknowledge pay parity.

Fian

Powerhouse wrote: »

Fair enough, but as far as I am aware there is no documented distinction between 'open for all' and 'open for some' so I'm not sure it's an argument even the Department would try to sustain. As things stand it seems that a school open for even limited numbers of students would be considered open.

There probably is an element of semantics in what I said - but as I pointed out previously - ultimately DES will determine the issue not parsing and analysing the phrase used in the circular. The circular could easily be revised if necessary - it is not legislation. Though that is unlikely if it is considered unecessary, because nobody wants to do anything needlessly that could be considered provocation.

I don't believe they will permit a situation whereby teachers can cause schools to indefinitely close for 2/3rds of the students on full pay.

Mainly because that is no way to conduct an industrial dispute from an employers point of view - it would be tantamount to absolute surrender. It would give ASTI an insurmountable tactical advantage if their members could remain on the payroll while the schools were shut to all but exam year students. The essence of industrial disputes is that they generally involve pain on both sides.

Bear in mind my original post was in response to someone hoping that the approach of schools opening for exam years students only would become more widespread so that they could be paid while on that dispute.

Edit:

Just btw that person was not the poster I quoted in my original post, I quoted someone else who was looking at the wording of the circular.

Powerhouse

Fian wrote: »

Bear in mind my original post was in response to someone hoping that the approach of schools opening for exam years students only would become more widespread so that they could be paid while on that dispute.

I am absolutely cognisant of your position on the matter which was the opposite to that person i.e. an attempt to argue on the head of a semantic pin that teachers should not be paid.

km79

coillsaille wrote: »

ASTI standing committee is to meet this afternoon so I suppose we'll see later this evening if anything significant comes from that.

Regarding the lockout situation, from what I hear various BOMs seem to be calling meetings to look at bringing in 6th yrs, using vetted people already in the school as supers and subs. So I would expect the amount of schools on lockout will have gone down a bit by tomorrow and even more by Thursday. If all schools could do this it would be really beneficial. We get to teach our LCs so they don't lose out on any more tuition time and also we then won't have to make up for as much time lost. The LCs and their parents will be a lot happier, and the DES have to pay us if we're teaching.

Did they meet this afternoon ? Any update from it

evolving_doors

km79 wrote: »

Did they meet this afternoon ? Any update from it

I doubt the govt. will budge an inch (this week anyway). The ' talks ' probably take all of 5min...probably goes like this...

Govt: Well folks are ye going into Lansdowne Road yet?
ASTI: NO.
Govt: Righto. Who has the milk? God Tis getting muggy out there isn't it?
ASTI: Ahh it's not too bad.

km79

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I doubt the govt. will budge an inch (this week anyway). The ' talks ' probably take all of 5min...probably goes like this...

Govt: Well folks are ye going into Lansdowne Road yet?
ASTI: NO.
Govt: Righto. Who has the milk? God Tis getting muggy out there isn't it?
ASTI: Ahh it's not too bad.

Standing committee were meeting apparently
One person said this afternoon but it may be this evening ?

jayo76

Great to hear on here and on the six one news that more and more school managements are now taking the decision from tomorrow to even partially reopen but just wondering how many people here are still in the same position as us where we more or less just continue to find ourselves locked out? We have had no update from management in our place as to regards any possibility of opening, the last formal communication we had was a letter dated November 2nd which stated that on foot of an emergency BOM meeting the previous night the school would not be in a position to reopen after midterm.

Have heard of various schools where people who were in approached the Principal for a meeting to discuss the situation but this was not really an option for us as the Principal did not turn up outside the school gate yesterday morning, the Vice Principal did. Met a parent in the local shop an hour ago wondering what the story was who said parents had got an email this morning to say the school would remain closed until further notice. I had to laugh and tell her that unfortunately she knows more about it than I do.

Lord TSC

The nurses look like they are about to go to war with the government too.

I do get it's hard having to deal with the lack of financial security strikes yield, but I'd love if teachers and nurses could kind of united a bit, and really push how the entire public sector is unhappy with the government. This sort of thing can put massive pressure on them to give in to demands.

Bicycle

What is happening to the non-teaching staff during this dispute? The people who are lucky to be on €15 per hour and who are usually the first port of call for parents who have an issue - and who in my personal experience - are some of the most wonderfully patient and understanding people around.

Are they being docked pay as well, or are they continuing to be paid?

kerryguy78

Lord TSC wrote: »

The nurses look like they are about to go to war with the government too.

I do get it's hard having to deal with the lack of financial security strikes yield, but I'd love if teachers and nurses could kind of united a bit, and really push how the entire public sector is unhappy with the government. This sort of thing can put massive pressure on them to give in to demands.

We all know what's coming, public service workers hold the country to ransom, get their pay rise, then we all pay more tax and services are cut, hospital over crowding gets worse and so on, until we are back in the crap again!!!

worseforwear

Powerhouse wrote: »

I don't understand your issue with this. Is it not reasonable that the union would try to promote a situation where its members get paid? Would you prefer if they did nothing?

When the ASTI have created this problem for their members, I don't think they should be looking to others to solve it, particularly when it is within their gift to solve it themselves.

worseforwear

Bicycle wrote: »

What is happening to the non-teaching staff during this dispute? The people who are lucky to be on €15 per hour and who are usually the first port of call for parents who have an issue - and who in my personal experience - are some of the most wonderfully patient and understanding people around.

Are they being docked pay as well, or are they continuing to be paid?

As far as I know they are still being paid.

huey1975

So ASTI members, affiliation fee €337, 3 days without pay @€;200 / day , that's €937 better off if you were with the TUI.
Was it cold and wet today while you were out picketing?
Don't worry about your union bosses though, they sounded really well on the radio today (while on full pay).



Member warned for flaming
MOD

km79

huey1975 wrote: »

So ASTI members, affiliation fee €337, 3 days without pay @€;200 / day , that's €937 better off if you were with the TUI.
Was it cold and wet today while you were out picketing?
Don't worry about your union bosses though, they sounded really well on the radio today (while on full pay).

Is it free to join TUI?

scout353

The_Valeyard wrote: »

According to <mod snip>Ed Walsh, former head of UL on Newstalk today, teachers are pampered, lazy people with poor degrees and shortest teaching hours in Europe.

Keep it clean please, next one is an infraction. After that a ban.
Thanks

Haven't read the rest of the thread yet so apologies if this is a repeat but I think this refutes Ed Walsh's arguments. There is also a part 2 on the site.

https://thearchitectsoffate.wordpress.com/2016/10/18/responding-to-ed-walshs-misleading-statements-part-1-teachers-working-time/

judeboy101

huey1975 wrote: »

So ASTI members, affiliation fee €337, 3 days without pay @€;200 / day , that's €937 better off if you were with the TUI.
Was it cold and wet today while you were out picketing?
Don't worry about your union bosses though, they sounded really well on the radio today (while on full pay).

€937 better off if I was with the TUI? No thanks, I rather have a soul.

man_no_plan

huey1975 wrote: »

So ASTI members, affiliation fee €337, 3 days without pay @€;200 / day , that's €937 better off if you were with the TUI.
Was it cold and wet today while you were out picketing?
Don't worry about your union bosses though, they sounded really well on the radio today (while on full pay).

Who's on €200 a day?

Villain

judeboy101 wrote: »

€937 better off if I was with the TUI? No thanks, I rather have a soul.

You saying all TUI members have no soul?

They voted democratically to accept the deal, you may not like it but as union member the least you can do is respect it!

worseforwear

Fian wrote: »

yes - sorry I should perhaps have been clearer when I stuck "open for some students" in quotes. I was just trying to illustrate a concept distinct from the "open for students" used in the circular - which actually I hadn't seen until you asked for it and i used google - prior to that i was quoting from another post.

Anyway I was not intending to suggest that phrase was used in the circular, I was contrasting that phrase with the "open for students" actually employed in the circular.

All this debate on what constitutes what "open for students" means is fascinating,
In reality the debate should be titled, "How can we find a way to still get paid while doing as little as possible?"

My child's future is being destroyed by these teachers, why target leaving Cert students?

At least when the Gardai were striking they had the decency to allow essential services to remain without the threat of a strike, why cant the teachers ensure leaving cert students are not having their futures destroyed?

Inspector Coptoor

huey1975 wrote: »

So ASTI members, affiliation fee €337, 3 days without pay @€;200 / day , that's €937 better off if you were with the TUI.
Was it cold and wet today while you were out picketing?
Don't worry about your union bosses though, they sounded really well on the radio today (while on full pay).

1. It's not free to join the TUI.
2. You are quoting gross figures.

3 days without pay for me is about €285 net.

Worth it to make a stance over inequality.

worseforwear

Deleted User wrote: »

My child's future is being destroyed by these teachers, why target leaving Cert students?

At least when the Gardai were striking they had the decency to allow essential services to remain without the threat of a strike, why cant the teachers ensure leaving cert students are not having their futures destroyed?

So you do think that teachers are valuable to society?

Inspector Coptoor

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My child's future is being destroyed by these teachers, why target leaving Cert students?

At least when the Gardai were striking they had the decency to allow essential services to remain without the threat of a strike, why cant the teachers ensure leaving cert students are not having their futures destroyed?

Less of the hand wringing and "think of the children" line.

My two leaving Cert classes have plenty of work to keep them going.
The course is almost complete.

This will be resolved and any time lost will be made up.

Also, I was in My LC year in 2001 when teachers were on strike.

I stayed at home, I studied and my leaving Cert went just fine.