An Post now leaving parcels outside

amtc

ComReg direction from document 03/50, and believe me I do know what I'm talking about! Worked for both organisations.

davo10

rubadub wrote: »

I'd be interested to see the actual laws or official instructions given to an post delivery people. Those 2 quotes sound like "bloke in the pub" who thinks he's a lawyer talk.

A bloke down the pub told me this, clever guy.

Decision No 4:

The legal obligation on An Post is to deliver to the home or premises of every legal or natural person. Nevertheless there can be considerable advantages for both An Post and Addressees from the introduction of Roadside Letterboxes. An Post should therefore seek the agreement of addressees to the use of "garden gate" boxes, particularly in rural areas, and to offer alternative arrangements such as collection from delivery offices without payment of a fee. ComReg accepts that any such alternative arrangements that have been mutually agreed will fulfil the legal obligation.

harr

Where I am parcels and letters get delivered by two separate postmen ...one on bike and one in the van ..guy on the bike sound but fella in van is a right pig ..for some reason even if gate open he won't even attempt to drop a parcel instead he will just post a attempted delivery docket and tell us to pick it up at post office even though I would be at home ...it seems he was just a lazy **** and was doing same to all the neighbors...quick phone call to his boss in local depot sorted him ...the supervisor was sound and even sent letters apologising to ever house in the area ...never seen that post man in our area again ...
So have a word with post man first and go higher if needed ...like all jobs you get the odd lazy ****er

Advbrd

harr wrote: »

Where I am parcels and letters get delivered by two separate postmen ...one on bike and one in the van ..guy on the bike sound but fella in van is a right pig ..for some reason even if gate open he won't even attempt to drop a parcel instead he will just post a attempted delivery docket and tell us to pick it up at post office even though I would be at home ...it seems he was just a lazy **** and was doing same to all the neighbors...quick phone call to his boss in local depot sorted him ...the supervisor was sound and even sent letters apologising to ever house in the area ...never seen that post man in our area again ...
So have a word with post man first and go higher if needed ...like all jobs you get the odd lazy ****er

Would that be the sorting office?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Advbrd wrote: »

Would that be the sorting office?

Yes.

harr

Advbrd wrote: »

Would that be the sorting office?

Yes local sorting office, just ask to speak to who ever is in charge of your area..they took our complaint seriously but I recon they must have gotten a few more not just me ...it turned out he had the attempted delivery notes prepared in advanced and was leaving parcels in the van ..why I don't know because he would have to load parcels into van and then off van when he got back to post office...

HanaleiJ5N

davo10 wrote: »

I thought the point of having your letterbox at your gate was to allow you to keep your gate closed and stop people from entering your property? If your mail box is at your gate, and the post being delivered won't fit in it, I think it's fair to leave the item as close as possible to your mailbox. You could just remove the box at the gate so that mail comes to your door instead. It's difficult to see this as a consumer issue.

This sums up everything that it's wrong with the CI forum.

blade1

Hendrix Wonderful Ratchet wrote: »

Yes.

Not anymore.
You ring your local office now and you get redirected to customer service who in turn contact the sorting office about whatever the issue.

Reminds me, not so long ago I wanted to speak to one of the girls in my local bank to know could I do something.
So rang their number but got through to customer service.

So went through the rigmarole for about 10 minutes and at the end the lad on the other end tells me "oh you have to talk to your local branch for that."
I said that's what I was trying to do in the first place.
He said "ok I'll give you a number to get you straight through to the manager.
So gives me a number(think there was a couple of 4's at the start of it)and I says "is that a lo call number as I can only ring national numbers on my phone plan?"
He says "no no,that'll get you through."

So ,I hang up and dial the number and guess what?
It's a locall number!!:o
Great,back to square one again:pac:

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

blade1 wrote: »

Not anymore.
You ring your local office now and you get redirected to customer service who in turn contact the sorting office about whatever the issue.

Reminds me, not so long ago I wanted to speak to one of the girls in my local bank to know could I do something.
So rang their number but got through to customer service.

So went through the rigmarole for about 10 minutes and at the end the lad on the other end tells me "oh you have to talk to your local branch for that."
I said that's what I was trying to do in the first place.
He said "ok I'll give you a number to get you straight through to the manager.
So gives me a number(think there was a couple of 4's at the start of it)and I says "is that a lo call number as I can only ring national numbers on my phone plan?"
He says "no no,that'll get you through."

So ,I hang up and dial the number and guess what?
It's a locall number!!:o
Great,back to square one again:pac:

I phoned my local sorting office last week.

rubadub

davo10 wrote: »

A bloke down the pub told me this, clever guy.

Decision No 4:

The legal obligation on An Post is to deliver to the home or premises of every legal or natural person. Nevertheless there can be considerable advantages for both An Post and Addressees from the introduction of Roadside Letterboxes. An Post should therefore seek the agreement of addressees to the use of "garden gate" boxes, particularly in rural areas, and to offer alternative arrangements such as collection from delivery offices without payment of a fee. ComReg accepts that any such alternative arrangements that have been mutually agreed will fulfil the legal obligation.

Clever, nah, quite the opposite, just proved himself to be a spoofer as I expected.

There is nothing in that quote to suggest the recommended or even permitted action is to leave a parcel out in the open alongside a roadside letterbox.

But you can thank the spoofer for the info, using that quote I found this

http://www.comreg.ie/media/dlm_uploads/2015/12/ComReg0350.pdf

The importance of the “duty of care” is also emphasised by section 57 of the 1908
Act (still extant) which places specific obligations on the postman.

ComReg’s understanding therefore is that while there is an obligation under the
Regulations to deliver “to the home or premises of every natural or legal person” An
Post also has a “duty of care” to the owner of the postal item which means that
delivery must be effected either by handing the postal item to the addressee
personally or by leaving it in a “safe” place at the home or premises, e.g. posting it
through a letterplate in the front door, leaving it in a locked box at the garden gate or
in any other receptacle provided for the purpose by the addressee.

unsurprisingly in their examples they do not list "outside the gate, in full view of passers-by, and also exposed to the weather"

5.6 Action to be taken if An Post is Unable to effect delivery

There are some items of mail, e.g. packets, parcels and registered items, where the
item must be delivered personally either because they are too large to fit through the
aperture of the letterplate / letterbox or because proof of delivery is required by the
person sending the item. Also there are some items of mail that cannot be delivered
because the size of the letterplate / letterbox is smaller than that set out in the
Irish/European Standard. It is not always the case that there is someone at home
when the postman calls, either because of working hours or holidays.

The paper suggested that in these cases it seems reasonable to expect An Post to
make one attempt at delivery in person, and that if delivery cannot be effected for a
notice to be left stating that an attempt was made at delivery, and stating how the
item can be obtained by the addressee. As a minimum the addressee should be given
the option of collecting the item from an office of An Post, within reasonable
distance from the address, within a specified period and during specified hours.

Notice to be left in, as I previously had guessed is the case.

Furthermore it must be remembered that the delivery of packages/parcels will always necessitate delivery to the front door, and that this is, according to the OECD, the fastest growing sector of the market13.

While the Commission went to consultation on the basis that it would prefer An Post
proceed on the basis of mutual agreement between addressee and An Post, it has had
to consider the possibility that such agreements have not or cannot be reached.
In this case there are three issues to be considered:-
(a) What is An Post’s legal obligation in relation to delivery of postal items?
(b) What is meant by “home or premises”?
(c) Are there any restrictions as to where on the home or premises delivery must be made?

In relation to (a), as indicated above, An Post’s legal obligation under the
Regulations is to deliver to the “home or premises”.

In relation to (b), under the common law a “home” or “premises” is given a broad
interpretation and includes more than simply the addressee’s house. It can extend to
lands appurtenant to the house (including a garden) and other structures on the land.
In theory therefore, the obligation to deliver to the home or premises of every natural
or legal person could be discharged by delivery to any building, garden or portion of
ground occupied by the addressee.

But does this mean that An Post could meet its legal obligations, say, by simply
depositing a letter in the garden? The answer is no. The letter belongs to the
addressee and An Post owes a common law “duty of care” to the rightful owner of
the letter.

And remember the OP's was not even left in their garden.

blade1

Hendrix Wonderful Ratchet wrote: »

I phoned my local sorting office last week.

Not doubting you did.
But usually these days customers get redirected to customer service.
Maybe some have not changed yet.

davo10

rubadub wrote: »

Clever, nah, quite the opposite, just proved himself to be a spoofer as I expected.

There is nothing in that quote to suggest the recommended or even permitted action is to leave a parcel out in the open alongside a roadside letterbox.

But you can thank the spoofer for the info, using that quote I found this

http://www.comreg.ie/media/dlm_uploads/2015/12/ComReg0350.pdf


unsurprisingly in their examples they do not list "outside the gate, in full view of passers-by, and also exposed to the weather"


Notice to be left in, as I previously had guessed is the case.



And remember the OP's was not even left in their garden.

You edited my post and quoted amtc's about a single point, is point of delivary the roadside letterbox or is the postman obliged to go to the door? and you said this was bloke in a pub talking like a lawyer. Decision 4 is pretty clear on the point you were so dismissive about, the postman is not obliged to go to the door. That is the legal clarification/"actual law" you asked for on that particular point, turns out the guy in the pub knows more than you but that shouldn't come as a surprise.

I take your point on the package being brought back to the post office, that, helpfully, is also referred to in the decision.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

blade1 wrote: »

Not doubting you did.
But usually these days customers get redirected to customer service.
Maybe some have not changed yet.

And that is a far cry from what you originally said. And 'usually' doesn't apply at all. Try 'sometimes' or 'occasionally' perhaps.

my3cents

davo10 wrote: »

You edited my post and quoted amtc's about a single point, is point of delivary the roadside letterbox or is the postman obliged to go to the door? and you said this was bloke in a pub talking like a lawyer. Decision 4 is pretty clear on the point you were so dismissive about, the postman is not obliged to go to the door. That is the legal clarification/"actual law" you asked for on that particular point, turns out the guy in the pub knows more than you.

I take your point on the package being brought back to the post office.

My postman certainly thinks differently. He may not be a lawyer but he says he has to deliver to the house any parcel that won't fit into the letter box. That includes him calling at the house even if he thinks we may not be in.

You seem to be forgetting that the comreg ruling uses the words mutually agreed. In the OP's case he hasn't mutually agreed that the postman can leave parcels that won't fit into the letter box at the gate.

davo10

my3cents wrote: »

My postman certainly thinks differently. He may not be a lawyer but he says he has to deliver to the house any parcel that won't fit into the letter box. That includes him calling at the house even if he thinks we may not be in.

You seem to be forgetting that the comreg ruling uses the words mutually agreed. In the OP's case he hasn't mutually agreed that the postman can leave parcels that won't fit into the letter box at the gate.

But presumably the placement of the box at the gate was mutually agreed after the dog got driven over and the legal spat?

I know I've taken a bit of a lashing on here for my earlier post, I'm sorry I posted it rather than my first inkling about this, that there was a dog involved somewhere in the story (I thought it would be a biting incident). My post was more about the fact that if you have a gate box, there is no obligation to drive/walk up to the door. Of course postman use their discretion to go a further for the people on heir route but what irked me a little was that the op and others thought that somehow the postman was not doing his/her job or was lazy by not going to the door. The comreg decision clearly says that if the box is at the gate, the postman fulfills his/her obligation by delivering/attempting to deliver there and I feel it is being unfair to criticise them for not doing more.

Leaving the package at the gate is a different matter and in hindsight I agree this is unacceptable, it should be returned to the post office and in light of the com reg decision, the postman should not be subject to complaint for not delivering to the door.

blade1

Hendrix Wonderful Ratchet wrote: »

And that is a far cry from what you originally said. And 'usually' doesn't apply at all. Try 'sometimes' or 'occasionally' perhaps.

Not a far cry at all.
I tried 3 random ones and got customer service on all 3.
Where's your local one?

rubadub

davo10 wrote: »

You edited my post and quoted amtc's about a single point, is point of delivary the roadside letterbox or is the postman obliged to go to the door? .

My post was about your claim that the postman was in the right to leave it where he did- i.e. "outside the gate, in full view of passers-by, and also exposed to the weather"

Your claim was quite clear, the other posters was not. Both of you wrote in manner which seemed like you could back up this claim, using wording I would expect to see in legal docs or formal an post instructions, i.e. "wannabe lawyer bloke in the pub". Again it was not clear if the other poster specifically was saying that and I wanted to see if he did. I am still unsure if he thinks the postman was correct in what he did, I hope not.

davo10 wrote: »

turns out the guy in the pub knows more than you but that shouldn't come as a surprise

You are the typical "bloke in the pub", and I exposed you as a complete spoofer, but that shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody, you can clearly see what the vast majority of other posters here think of you already.

davo10

rubadub wrote: »

My post was about your claim that the postman was in the right to leave it where he did- i.e. "outside the gate, in full view of passers-by, and also exposed to the weather"

Your claim was quite clear, the other posters was not. Both of you wrote in manner which seemed like you could back up this claim, using wording I would expect to see in legal docs or formal an post instructions, i.e. "wannabe lawyer bloke in the pub". Again it was not clear if the other poster specifically was saying that and I wanted to see if he did. I am still unsure if he thinks the postman was correct in what he did, I hope not.


You are the typical "bloke in the pub", and I exposed you as a complete spoofer, but that shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody, you can clearly see what the vast majority of other posters here think of you already.

"Quote: davo10
The op put his/her mailbox outside the gate, that is the point of delivary for on post, designated by the op, why? Because that's where the letterbox is.


Quote: amtc
Legally there is an obligation to deliver to a mutually agreed point at a home or premises. Which can be explicit or determined by a letterbox etc.


I'd be interested to see the actual laws or official instructions given to an post delivery people. Those 2 quotes sound like "bloke in the pub" who thinks he's a lawyer talk."

What you quoted, what you asked, what was answered. Just because you were caught out doesn't mean you should throw the toys out of the pram.

Shelflife

Hang on boys and girls, it boils down to a bit of common sense.

Delivery box or letter box I think its common sense not to leave a box open to the elements and potential theft lying around. So the postie should either leave a note and bring back to the PO or deliver to the door.

As its just started lately it could well be a misunderstanding by the (prob new) postie.

The simple and common sense approach would be to talk to said postie and if they are hard to meet , then as one poster said leave a note for them to call into the house or to call the OP and sort it out that way.

Theres no need at this stage to write to area offices or com reg . if no satisfaction is got after having a chat then you can escalate the matter.

Its good to talk !

harr

Shelflife wrote: »

Hang on boys and girls, it boils down to a bit of common sense.

Delivery box or letter box I think its common sense not to leave a box open to the elements and potential theft lying around. So the postie should either leave a note and bring back to the PO or deliver to the door.

As its just started lately it could well be a misunderstanding by the (prob new) postie.

The simple and common sense approach would be to talk to said postie and if they are hard to meet , then as one poster said leave a note for them to call into the house or to call the OP and sort it out that way.

Theres no need at this stage to write to area offices or com reg . if no satisfaction is got after having a chat then you can escalate the matter.

Its good to talk !

Exactly have a word with postman first just ask him/her if they can deliver larger parcels to the house or to the post office if no body at home..or if you don't see postman tell local post office to pass on the message...if things don't improve then you can escalate things..but I would definitely have a word in his ear first.

MFlack2012

I had this problem last year, when our elderly postman had a break for a few months. I ordered €300 worth of clothing online and had them delivered. We weren't home and €300 worth of clothing was left in the unlocked porch for the world and his mother to see, clearly marked with the company logo. We were lucky that our new neighbours saw it and immediately took them in until we got home. I had words with the postman the next day. A few weeks later I ordered a large batch (for the family) of over €500 and again same thing happened, thankfully this time we were home but not in the house (Working in the shed), I luckily found them once again standing up in plain view in the unlocked porch. I immediately got on to an post and made a complaint. Thankfully that postman never serviced our area again and our items are securely delivered to our door.

crossmolinalad

MFlack2012 wrote: »

I had this problem last year, when our elderly postman had a break for a few months. I ordered €300 worth of clothing online and had them delivered. We weren't home and €300 worth of clothing was left in the unlocked porch for the world and his mother to see, clearly marked with the company logo. We were lucky that our new neighbours saw it and immediately took them in until we got home. I had words with the postman the next day. A few weeks later I ordered a large batch (for the family) of over €500 and again same thing happened, thankfully this time we were home but not in the house (Working in the shed), I luckily found them once again standing up in plain view in the unlocked porch. I immediately got on to an post and made a complaint. Thankfully that postman never serviced our area again and our items are securely delivered to our door.

That's nothing
got a parcel from Amazon and nobody was home
It was blue bin day and bin collection was done
Don't know who delivered it but they dumped it in the empty blue bin on the road

Edups

Hendrix Wonderful Ratchet wrote: »

I phoned my local sorting office last week.

It might not be all now but it is becoming the case.