Stronglift 5x5 query

chases0102

Hi all,

Have seen the above programme, Stronglifts 5x5, recommended on various websites and forums, such as Boards, but I just have a question someone may be able to answer.

I have read various articles stating that Squats and Deadlifts should not be done on the same day, yet Stronglifts 5x5 outlines that you may do so.

Is it ok/beneficial to do Squats and Deadlifts on same day?

Thanks folks!

Hanley

Yes, it's ok.

chases0102

Cheers.

Hanley

For reference,

I squat 4x/week, deadlift 4x/ week and bench 5x/week.

Some of those days will be double squat / bench / deadlift days, so you can increase those numbers a lot.

Once you manage total workload and fatigue, there's no set limit to what you can and can't do.

If you want to get better at something, the more you practice it, the better.

The "you can only train back once per week" thing is a throw back from bodybuilding where a training session meant total destruction of a muscle and area. Stronglifts, and strength training in general doesn't do that.

chases0102

Makes sense. Cheers Hanley.

Powerhouse

Hanley wrote: »

For reference,

I squat 4x/week, deadlift 4x/ week and bench 5x/week.

Some of those days will be double squat / bench / deadlift days, so you can increase those numbers a lot.

Once you manage total workload and fatigue, there's no set limit to what you can and can't do.

If you want to get better at something, the more you practice it, the better.

The "you can only train back once per week" thing is a throw back from bodybuilding where a training session meant total destruction of a muscle and area. Stronglifts, and strength training in general doesn't do that.

You mention "managing fatigue" - just wondering what your advice would be on this. I am considering the 5x5 programme but it seems very intense and am concerned about being wrecked constantly. Any advice on how to combat that? For the record I have never taken any supplements of any description including protein shakes or branch chain amino acids so know little about how they might help.

Alf Veedersane

Powerhouse wrote: »

You mention "managing fatigue" - just wondering what your advice would be on this. I am considering the 5x5 programme but it seems very intense and am concerned about being wrecked constantly. Any advice on how to combat that? For the record I have never taken any supplements of any description including protein shakes or branch chain amino acids so know little about how they might help.

With 5x5, fatigue shouldn't really be an issue. It's three days a weekand not much volume therein so once you're getting enough sleep and enough food, you'll be fine.

Powerhouse

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

With 5x5, fatigue shouldn't really be an issue. It's three days a weekand not much volume therein so once you're getting enough sleep and enough food, you'll be fine.

Thanks. Yeah that's probably fair enough re. workload. I'm just a bit under the weather at the moment which is influencing my thinking!

What attracts me to the 5x5 is just the structure. I am a bit erratic at the moment where for example I've done a lot of benching recently to the virtual exclusion of the other lifts - this programme would regulate that tendency.

Have you experience if it and would you recommend it?

Alf Veedersane

Powerhouse wrote: »

Thanks. Yeah that's probably fair enough re. workload. I'm just a bit under the weather at the moment which is influencing my thinking!

What attracts me to the 5x5 is just the structure. I am a bit erratic at the moment where for example I've done a lot of benching recently to the virtual exclusion of the other lifts - this programme would regulate that tendency.

Have you experience if it and would you recommend it?

I have done it and it was fine. I was very much a beginner beginner when I did it so I really enjoyed the structure.

You should make some progress from it and there are a lot of positives about it so I wouldn't say don't do it.

I'd use it as a gateway programme because going in with no plan is a shortcut to nowhere.

So give it a go, see how you get on. Don't be afraid to start light and work on fine-tuning technique in the lifts.

Mellor

Powerhouse wrote: »

Thanks. Yeah that's probably fair enough re. workload. I'm just a bit under the weather at the moment which is influencing my thinking!

If you do it properly and start at 20kg (empty bar) it will be a month before the workload becomes taxing. You'll probably be better by then.
If you want to start, then start it now imo.

Have you experience if it and would you recommend it?

Based on what you've said it perfect for you.

Powerhouse

Mellor wrote: »

If you do it properly and start at 20kg (empty bar) it will be a month before the workload becomes taxing. You'll probably be better by then.
If you want to start, then start it now imo.


Based on what you've said it perfect for you.

To be honest I am not a beginner at any of the lifts. The weight doesn't bother me. It's just that I saw it advertised as a 45-minute workout and for the weights I lift doing all that in 45 minutes would be fairly intense. It is doable obviously and I've probably done harder workouts from time to time myself but this would be supposedly three times a week. Or is it simply a programme best suited to a beginner? I also can't help feeling I might be selling myself short in the recovery stakes - there are some people who seem to be in the gym all the time and I'm not sure how they manage that's all.

Useful.Idiot

Powerhouse wrote: »

To be honest I am not a beginner at any of the lifts. The weight doesn't bother me. It's just that I saw it advertised as a 45-minute workout and for the weights I lift doing all that in 45 minutes would be fairly intense. It is doable obviously and I've probably done harder workouts from time to time myself but this would be supposedly three times a week. Or is it simply a programme best suited to a beginner? I also can't help feeling I might be selling myself short in the recovery stakes - there are some people who seem to be in the gym all the time and I'm not sure how they manage that's all.

Stronglifts is a full body workout each workout so rest days are essential with this. The people you see at the gym every day could be doing split routines doing one or two isolated muscle groups a day.

It usually takes longer than 45 minutes for me to be honest. It depends on how much you're resting between each set. As it starts to get really challenging then your wait times will go up. Some people choose to switch to 3x5 when the heavy volume really starts to drain you for your other lifts. You'll still be making strength increases.

By far and away the best thing about Stronglifts is the accompanying (free) phone app. It's probably my favourite app on my phone right now. I don't do strict Stronglifts any more but I still use it every workout.

Alf Veedersane

Powerhouse wrote: »

To be honest I am not a beginner at any of the lifts. The weight doesn't bother me. It's just that I saw it advertised as a 45-minute workout and for the weights I lift doing all that in 45 minutes would be fairly intense. It is doable obviously and I've probably done harder workouts from time to time myself but this would be supposedly three times a week. Or is it simply a programme best suited to a beginner? I also can't help feeling I might be selling myself short in the recovery stakes - there are some people who seem to be in the gym all the time and I'm not sure how they manage that's all.

It's not strictly for beginnersin the sense that it only suits people who have never lifted a weight before.

Your recovery should be fine. Not huge volume so once you're not under eating and you're sleeping fine, you'll be fine.

Get cracking and stop thinking about how much recovery you'll need for the workouts you're not doing

Mellor

Powerhouse wrote: »

To be honest I am not a beginner at any of the lifts. The weight doesn't bother me. It's just that I saw it advertised as a 45-minute workout and for the weights I lift doing all that in 45 minutes would be fairly intense

Ah ok, apologies, I had just assumed from your OP that you were asking as a beginner. How much are you lifting? If it was high enough you could drop the sets to 3 and still be effective. With 3-5 mins rest, should be doable to work through in the 3 exercises in about an hour (inc warm up). If you like a lot of mobility, and warm up sets it might be a bit longer. But 90mins tops.

Powerhouse

Mellor wrote: »

Ah ok, apologies, I had just assumed from your OP that you were asking as a beginner. How much are you lifting? If it was high enough you could drop the sets to 3 and still be effective. With 3-5 mins rest, should be doable to work through in the 3 exercises in about an hour (inc warm up). If you like a lot of mobility, and warm up sets it might be a bit longer. But 90mins tops.

I'd bench 100kg for reps (and rising I think), 170kg deadlifts (again for reps - I could go 210kg for a single lift) and to be honest I don't squat often enough to be really sure but I did two sets of 10 at 100kg the other night handily enough so could probably do more than that for 5 reps though I would need to practise them at a light weight first as they are obviously potentially dangerous if your form is poor. But to be honest if I can stretch time a bit and am not forcing it all in 45 minutes it's a different ballgame!

Powerhouse

Useful.Idiot wrote: »

The people you see at the gym every day could be doing split routines doing one or two isolated muscle groups a day.

It usually takes longer than 45 minutes for me to be honest.

.

This makes sense! Part of what attracts me to the stronglifts is the feeling of not having to live in the gym to make progress.

Mellor

Powerhouse wrote: »

I'd bench 100kg for reps (and rising I think), 170kg deadlifts (again for reps - I could go 210kg for a single lift) and to be honest I don't squat often enough to be really sure but I did two sets of 10 at 100kg the other night handily enough so could probably do more than that for 5 reps though I would need to practise them at a light weight first as they are obviously potentially dangerous if your form is poor. But to be honest if I can stretch time a bit and am not forcing it all in 45 minutes it's a different ballgame!

In that case jump in at 160 Deadlift, 90kg bench and 90kg squat. And what ever Press/Row number feels right. 50kg and 70kg maybe?
Add 2.5kg to all exercises per session, add 5kg to deadlifts (which might drop back to 2.5kg after a bit).
Don't worry about time, there's nothing in the program about 45min being a target. That's just the typical time for a guy starting out.

Brian?

Powerhouse wrote: »

I'd bench 100kg for reps (and rising I think), 170kg deadlifts (again for reps - I could go 210kg for a single lift) and to be honest I don't squat often enough to be really sure but I did two sets of 10 at 100kg the other night handily enough so could probably do more than that for 5 reps though I would need to practise them at a light weight first as they are obviously potentially dangerous if your form is poor. But to be honest if I can stretch time a bit and am not forcing it all in 45 minutes it's a different ballgame!

I don't think stronglifts 5x5 is the program for you (or anybody to be perfectly honest). I would consider doing the westside template if I were you.

It's simple enough. You pick one of squat or deadlift, and one of bench or military press. You do a max effort day and a repeat effort day for each a week.

Total of 4 days a week. I never took more than an hour to knock out my work with Westside.

Putting this together, a typical rotation would be:

Sunday – Dynamic Effort Bench

Monday – Max Effort Squat/DL

Wednesday – Max Effort Bench Press

Friday – Dynamic Squat/DL

Here it is.

http://www.sugdenbarbell.co.uk/routines/The-Standard-Westside-Template

Loads of questions asked here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=60146801#post60146801

Powerhouse

I did the 5x5 yesterday as a taster and will try Monday/Wednesday/Friday. Did 100k bench without much stress, 110k squat without much stress weight-wise and form was not bad at all considering I haven't done much of that, and 60k overhead - tried 70k but was wobbling a bit as I've done little or no overhead work in the past. (I'm feeling a bit of soreness from the overheads today!) Decent intensity in under an hour.

I note the Westside recommendation but I can't imagine the strong-lifts is "unsuitable". It provides the structure I am looking for anyway which is not to say it's the only show in town either. I'll stick with it for a few weeks anyway and see how I feel. I wouldn't be sure it's possible for me to regularly add the amount of weight suggested nearly every time. I am benching 100k at the moment. I'd normally prefer more time to get really comfortable at a weight and add more reps for a few weeks before adding maybe 5k. (Maybe that is a wrong way of thinking though) Other than that caveat around adding weight it seems good enough. Early days though.

Mellor

Powerhouse wrote: »

I wouldn't be sure it's possible for me to regularly add the amount of weight suggested nearly every time. I am benching 100k at the moment. I'd normally prefer more time to get really comfortable at a weight and add more reps for a few weeks before adding maybe 5k. (Maybe that is a wrong way of thinking though).

Then your not doing the program tbh. The only whole reason these programs work is progressive overload. If you benched 100kg without much stress then you can easily add weight.

The weights I suggested above weren't what I thought you'd be able to lift today. But rather a lighter starting point where you'd keep adding weight.

Brian?

Powerhouse wrote: »

I did the 5x5 yesterday as a taster and will try Monday/Wednesday/Friday. Did 100k bench without much stress, 110k squat without much stress weight-wise and form was not bad at all considering I haven't done much of that, and 60k overhead - tried 70k but was wobbling a bit as I've done little or no overhead work in the past. (I'm feeling a bit of soreness from the overheads today!) Decent intensity in under an hour.

I note the Westside recommendation but I can't imagine the strong-lifts is "unsuitable". It provides the structure I am looking for anyway which is not to say it's the only show in town either. I'll stick with it for a few weeks anyway and see how I feel. I wouldn't be sure it's possible for me to regularly add the amount of weight suggested nearly every time. I am benching 100k at the moment. I'd normally prefer more time to get really comfortable at a weight and add more reps for a few weeks before adding maybe 5k. (Maybe that is a wrong way of thinking though) Other than that caveat around adding weight it seems good enough. Early days though.

If you're not adding weight when you're comfortable completing the reps, you're not making the most of any program.

Powerhouse

Mellor wrote: »

Then your not doing the program tbh. The only whole reason these programs work is progressive overload. If you benched 100kg without much stress then you can easily add weight.

The weights I suggested above weren't what I thought you'd be able to lift today. But rather a lighter starting point where you'd keep adding weight.

If I follow the programme on benches, say, it means that within three weeks (9 workouts) I would be gone up by 22.5kgs for five reps. That seems a big ask, that's all I am saying. Then again maybe I am overestimating it and maybe it is quite possible.

But if I were to drop to 90 so that I am starting at a much lower point is it really progressive? It would mean that it would take four workouts to get back to my original starting point?

Or should I just cease trying to rationalise it and just get on with it?

Mellor

Powerhouse wrote: »

If I follow the programme on benches, say, it means that within three weeks (9 workouts) I would be gone up by 22.5kgs for five reps. That seems a big ask, that's all I am saying. Then again maybe I am overestimating it and maybe it is quite possible.

You are counting incorrectly. There's 3 bench workout per fortnight, not per week. In 3 weeks you only increase 10kg. By the end of the 6th week its 20kg.
Benching 110kg to 5 reps in 6 weeks times in completely reasonable.

But if I were to drop to 90 so that I am starting at a much lower point is it really progressive? It would mean that it would take four workouts to get back to my original starting point?

If you add weight regularly, then its progressive. Regardless of intensity.
The point of starting lower is to get accustomed to the movements, and volume. For example, you said you were wobbling with press due to not doing much in the past.

You could dial it back halfway the suggested starting point to eliminate a few weeks. 95kg bench, 60kg press etc. I guarantee you'll breeze past 100kg .

Or should I just cease trying to rationalise it and just get on with it?

TBH, yeah. Just go for it. No point talking yourself into a plateau.

Eventually you will miss some reps, it's inevitable. But you just come back and repeat it the next week.
Some weeks you'll add weight, some weeks you add reps. They are both strength progression.

Either wind it back a bit are start fresh, or go for 102.5kg now you are here. But don't repeat 100kg imo.

Brian?

Powerhouse wrote: »

If I follow the programme on benches, say, it means that within three weeks (9 workouts) I would be gone up by 22.5kgs for five reps. That seems a big ask, that's all I am saying. Then again maybe I am overestimating it and maybe it is quite possible.

But if I were to drop to 90 so that I am starting at a much lower point is it really progressive? It would mean that it would take four workouts to get back to my original starting point?

Or should I just cease trying to rationalise it and just get on with it?

Mellor gave you a much better answer. But I'll reiterate that I don't think stronglifts is the program for you. Your numbers are well above a beginner level. You won't add as much weight as the program says each week.

If you go ahead and do it:

You will miss reps, that's fine. You'll get them next time. Then you'll add weight for your next session and probably miss reps again. They won't break you though

It's a pretty simple structure. If you get your 5x5 completed on Monday. You add weight on Wednesday. If you miss reps at the new weight, you stay at that weight until you hit your 5x5.

Brian?

I'll throw more mud in the water. I still think your numbers are too big for a linear 5x5.

I did starting strength up to an intermediate level and then did this:

http://jcdfitness.com/2010/02/bill-starr-madcow-5x5-intermediate-training/

I found it excellent. I then moved on to west side which I found better than both.

Mellor

Brian? wrote: »

http://jcdfitness.com/2010/02/bill-starr-madcow-5x5-intermediate-training/

I found it excellent. I then moved on to west side which I found better than both.

I was actually just about to post that.

When you start needing two workouts for each weight, a triple then x5, strong lifts sort of morphs into madcow anyway.

Powerhouse

Thank, that looks interesting alright. For now anyway I think I need to get used to squatting and doing the overhead for a couple of weeks and the 5x5 should be useful for that. Then I'll consider my next move!