Massive infrastructure deficit, solutions

Consonata

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Do you know how society works?

The money wasted by a lack of a coherent network in Dublin as it stands is multiples of what DU or any other of the possible infrastructure improvements would save us overall for the outlay.

Think of all the money we waste on people being late and in traffic. Crashing cos they are tired. Polluting needlessly in their cars. Stressing themselves because of long commutes. Increasing healthcare costs as a whole. Putting further strain on the finances of the State. These sick and dead people can't work so we have a shortfall in tax revenues made worse by them taking social welfare or being dead. Meanwhile our schools aren't funded because less people can work. The centre of town's die because people's extra income is spent on commuting and creches and not on local entertainment and local shops. Etc etc etc. Not to mention the (soon-to-be-) collapsing housing market that we are faced with.

Imagine if rents weren't so high? Solution? Make more places attractive to live. These are all very basic socio-economic concepts that actually work in other countries.

World Class Public Transport is the silver bullet for a myriad of problems among others. You clearly haven't a notion of what you are on about if you think a congestion charge is the solution and borrowing for capital infrastructure projects is the problem.

Do you think I don't want DU or MN anymore than you do? Of course, we need to have a bus and rail system that can stand on its own. My suggestion was just a way of easing that burden so we don't get drowned in debt trying to build it.

BonnieSituation

Your plan won't ease the burden and will increase the burden short term.

And we won't get "drowned in debt" building a 1bn euro train tunnel.

DO you have any idea how big our economy is to think that 1bn is relevant?

Consonata

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Your plan won't ease the burden and will increase the burden short term.

And we won't get "drowned in debt" building a 1bn euro train tunnel.

DO you have any idea how big our economy is to think that 1bn is relevant?

I don't know where you're getting this 1 billion figure from. The tunnel on its own costs 2.65 billion, the entire DU scheme costs 4.5 billion. That isn't even touching Metro North.

LeinsterDub

Consonata wrote: »

I don't know where you're getting this 1 billion figure from. The tunnel on its own costs 2.65 billion, the entire DU scheme costs 4.5 billion. That isn't even touching Metro North.

Back in September, Paschal Donohoe said the original €3 billion project was being scrapped.

http://www.thejournal.ie/dart-undergound-shane-ross-2853568-Jun2016/

Consonata

LeinsterDub wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/dart-undergound-shane-ross-2853568-Jun2016/

Still isn't going to be cut all the way down to 1 billion. If they are going to go into the project with a 1/4 of the intial proposed investment, don't bother at all.

Skommando

There hasn't been any coherent logical nationwide infrastructure planning in Ireland since the Brits left.
The ability and aptitude in our politicians for the common good rather than enriching selected cronies, is just not there.
There still isn't even any coherent country wide motorway or rail network linking and developing all our regional cities, without having to travel via Dublin for everything.
The EU gave us billions in structural funds for inter-European road and rail , and instead we squandered it largely on hundreds of thousands of "bypasses" and regional road 'improvements', the need for which would have been redundant, if we'd spent it instead on one large planned future proofed coherent motorway and railway network.
When's the last time you heard any modern Western European county bumming about their "bypasses ?"

lucernarian

I think for the most part we have a complete expressway network? The M20 being the big missing and glaring example.

Whether you agree with the WRC or not, the train still does serve the other 4 cities in the state without going through Dublin. The Victorians served us well. Ha. Ha.

Consonata

lucernarian wrote:

Whether you agree with it or not, the train still does serve the other 4 cities in the state **if you live in Dublin**

FTFY

Skommando

I think the general response to everything seems to be "just move everyone to Dublin"
Not a great idea for the future development and sustainability of Ireland or Dublin.

lucernarian

Consonata wrote: »

FTFY

I fixed it myself as I hit post reply too early, but thanks...

cgcsb

Striking seems to work in this country. If the 1 million or so public transport users in the GDA went on strike until there was a guarantee of funds being committed to key projects I could see that gaining some traction. It really is not acceptable for people to be spending over an hour travelling 20km. If they refused to do it that'd get some attention, a sort of 'commuter strike' or 'commuter union'

newacc2015

The problem is not unions will take all the money, it is TDs wont allow Dublin to have nice things. Why should Dublin get another Luas line when Cork or Galway doenst have one? TD see all cities as equal. It doesnt matter that Dublin is significantly larger than all the other cities in Ireland combined.

Look at all the vanity projects the west of Ireland got. Look at the hundreds of millions spent on bypassing small towns of about 5/10k people for them to have a better quality of life. It was justified as the users of the motorway or dual carriage way were saving 5-10 mins off their journey. We spent billions marginally improving the lives of a few hundred thousand on bypasses, yet Dubliners are sitting in traffic as there is no money to spend on upgrading their infrastructure.

Before MN or DU is built, a few new motorways which will have to be built which will never reach their ridiculous estimated user numbers.

theskeptic

The media in Ireland seems to be afraid to be seen to focus too much on Dublin. There is a whole language in the official media to step around the fact that Dublin is the only medium sized European city in the Republic. I smile wryly when I hear AA Roadwatch referring to the traffic situation in "the major" cities around the country - bundling Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford together. I recall the astonishment of a Chinese visitor when I told them that one of our "major" cities had a population of just 80,000.

I am not debating the pros and cons of Dublin vs the rest of the country, but Dublin is sufficiently unique in terms of size (in Ireland) to be treated differently. Dublin regional issues need to be given much more prominence in the media. Dublin does not get enough media attention. Reporting on the Dail which happens to be in Dublin is not necessarily ABOUT Dublin - more often than not it will be concerning a national issue. But the media in their ham fisted attempt to balance coverage on a national level score this as reporting ABOUT Dublin.

A proper local government structure with elected mayor and substantial revenue raising power for Dublin would help focus politicians on the issues affecting the Dublin REGION. There is lots of VISION for Dublin: Metro North, DART Underground, designated high rise areas etc, but we lack the AMBITION to acquire the resources and plan beyond the short 5 year national government cycle to make some of that vision a reality.

zetalambda

theskeptic wrote: »

The media in Ireland seems to be afraid to be seen to focus too much on Dublin. There is a whole language in the official media to step around the fact that Dublin is the only medium sized European city in the Republic. I smile wryly when I hear AA Roadwatch referring to the traffic situation in "the major" cities around the country - bundling Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford together. I recall the astonishment of a Chinese visitor when I told them that one of our "major" cities had a population of just 80,000.

I am not debating the pros and cons of Dublin vs the rest of the country, but Dublin is sufficiently unique in terms of size (in Ireland) to be treated differently. Dublin regional issues need to be given much more prominence in the media. Dublin does not get enough media attention. Reporting on the Dail which happens to be in Dublin is not necessarily ABOUT Dublin - more often than not it will be concerning a national issue. But the media in their ham fisted attempt to balance coverage on a national level score this as reporting ABOUT Dublin.

A proper local government structure with elected mayor and substantial revenue raising power for Dublin would help focus politicians on the issues affecting the Dublin REGION. There is lots of VISION for Dublin: Metro North, DART Underground, designated high rise areas etc, but we lack the AMBITION to acquire the resources and plan beyond the short 5 year national government cycle to make some of that vision a reality.

I have a better idea. Why don't you just emigrate!

markpb

zetalambda wrote:

I have a better idea. Why don't you just emigrate!

Touché. What a reply

liamog

theskeptic wrote: »

The media in Ireland seems to be afraid to be seen to focus too much on Dublin. There is a whole language in the official media to step around the fact that Dublin is the only medium sized European city in the Republic. I smile wryly when I hear AA Roadwatch referring to the traffic situation in "the major" cities around the country - bundling Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford together. I recall the astonishment of a Chinese visitor when I told them that one of our "major" cities had a population of just 80,000.

I am not debating the pros and cons of Dublin vs the rest of the country, but Dublin is sufficiently unique in terms of size (in Ireland) to be treated differently. Dublin regional issues need to be given much more prominence in the media. Dublin does not get enough media attention. Reporting on the Dail which happens to be in Dublin is not necessarily ABOUT Dublin - more often than not it will be concerning a national issue. But the media in their ham fisted attempt to balance coverage on a national level score this as reporting ABOUT Dublin.

A proper local government structure with elected mayor and substantial revenue raising power for Dublin would help focus politicians on the issues affecting the Dublin REGION. There is lots of VISION for Dublin: Metro North, DART Underground, designated high rise areas etc, but we lack the AMBITION to acquire the resources and plan beyond the short 5 year national government cycle to make some of that vision a reality.

Regional Government to decide regional issues. I like this idea, its a pity Fingal voted down the Dublin mayor idea

Sam Russell

zetalambda wrote: »

I have a better idea. Why don't you just emigrate!

Mod: @ zetalambda - can we have a higher level of discussion. This forum is about infrastructure, if you want to make facile comments to demolish a serious point by a poster then please take it to another thread where it might be appreciated. If you cannot be constructive, then refrain from posting here.

Sam Russell

liamog wrote: »

Regional Government to decide regional issues. I like this idea, its a pity Fingal voted down the Dublin mayor idea

I think the Dublin Mayor needs to be expanded to be a single local government for Dublin with a single council with specific powers (or competencies) where it would be responsible for a number of issues. Infrastructure, housing and transport, including bus and train, would be a minimum that local powers have complete control over.

The rest of Ireland should be divided up into 5 to 7 regions and given the same elected local government with the same powers.

Obviously budgets would need to be tightly controlled to stop stupid vanity projects and other money wasting escapades that currently local authorities involve themselves in.

newacc2015

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think the Dublin Mayor needs to be expanded to be a single local government for Dublin with a single council with specific powers (or competencies) where it would be responsible for a number of issues. Infrastructure, housing and transport, including bus and train, would be a minimum that local powers have complete control over.

This wont happen. Dublin was broken into 4 local authorities to limit its influence. If you have one super council, it will scare a lot of TDs. Imagine the lobbying power of a city council for well over 1.5m people.

IMO Dublin City council should be allowed to issue municipal bonds for housing. In America, they do them all the time. They are called Muni's. DCC might be able to get a grip on its housing crisis if it could fund it itself.

Dardania

newacc2015 wrote: »

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think the Dublin Mayor needs to be expanded to be a single local government for Dublin with a single council with specific powers (or competencies) where it would be responsible for a number of issues. Infrastructure, housing and transport, including bus and train, would be a minimum that local powers have complete control over.

This wont happen. Dublin was broken into 4 local authorities to limit its influence. If you have one super council, it will scare a lot of TDs. Imagine the lobbying power of a city council for well over 1.5m people.

IMO Dublin City council should be allowed to issue municipal bonds for housing. In America, they do them all the time. They are called Muni's. DCC might be able to get a grip on its housing crisis if it could fund it itself.

I tend to agree...but would be afraid that DCC wouldn't have the balls to charge tenants more that's a token amount for the dwellings later, and would suck money from other areas to fund it

dubhthach

newacc2015 wrote: »

This wont happen. Dublin was broken into 4 local authorities to limit its influence. If you have one super council, it will scare a lot of TDs. Imagine the lobbying power of a city council for well over 1.5m people.

IMO Dublin City council should be allowed to issue municipal bonds for housing. In America, they do them all the time. They are called Muni's. DCC might be able to get a grip on its housing crisis if it could fund it itself.

In the US though municipalities generally have better source of income than here, for example they pay proper property taxes not the 3-500 euro/year paid here. If you look at Portland for example which has population within city limit somewhat comparable to Dublin (603,650 in Portland's case) you could be paying $2,200-$2,600/year. Between this and other charges Portland has a budget of about half billion dollars to spend every year. Lot easier to raise Bonds on such income.

Ideally we should pay higher property taxes in Ireland and then services should be devolved to local authorities (set up "School districts" etc.) and thus removed from central-government budget. I can't see TD's voting for that though.

Hotblack Desiato

A major problem with the property tax is that Dubliners are expected to pay more but don't get the benefit of it, as so much is siphoned off to be spent in other regions.

dubhthach

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

A major problem with the property tax is that Dubliners are expected to pay more but don't get the benefit of it, as so much is siphoned off to be spent in other regions.

Sure, but that is due to political decision by TD's. Given Dublin elects the most TD's of any county in the state perhaps the voters of Dublin should voice their displeasure (44 TD's)

Even so, I think it's time to rationalise the number of local authorities, the whole attachment to counties for local government only really goes back to the 1890's (with most of counties themselves only dating to Tudor period). I'd say consolidate number of Local Authorities to 7-9 (outside of Dublin) with aim that each has around 400,000+ residents. You'd imagine that over time (as long as a HSE/Irish water approach isn't taken with staffing -- unfortunately would probably be case), that synergies would lead to less need for transfers.

Of course if you've devolved stuff like "School districts" (eg. provision of new schools/transport etc.) to local authorities than any shortfalls should come out of central funds.

newacc2015

dubhthach wrote: »

In the US though municipalities generally have better source of income than here, for example they pay proper property taxes not the 3-500 euro/year paid here. If you look at Portland for example which has population within city limit somewhat comparable to Dublin (603,650 in Portland's case) you could be paying $2,200-$2,600/year. Between this and other charges Portland has a budget of about half billion dollars to spend every year. Lot easier to raise Bonds on such income.

Ideally we should pay higher property taxes in Ireland and then services should be devolved to local authorities (set up "School districts" etc.) and thus removed from central-government budget. I can't see TD's voting for that though.

Dubliners would have no issue paying for higher LPT if we got the benefits of it. I would happily pay closer to 1% of my properties value if I got good infrastructure in return. As is, Dubliners pay massive amounts of LPT, income tax(most high earners are in Dublin) and Dublin is relatively cheap to provide services in due to it very high density compared to the rest of the nation. Dubliners are paying most of the taxes with little in return.

Sam Russell

dubhthach wrote: »

Sure, but that is due to political decision by TD's. Given Dublin elects the most TD's of any county in the state perhaps the voters of Dublin should voice their displeasure (44 TD's)

Even so, I think it's time to rationalise the number of local authorities, the whole attachment to counties for local government only really goes back to the 1890's (with most of counties themselves only dating to Tudor period). I'd say consolidate number of Local Authorities to 7-9 (outside of Dublin) with aim that each has around 400,000+ residents. You'd imagine that over time (as long as a HSE/Irish water approach isn't taken with staffing -- unfortunately would probably be case), that synergies would lead to less need for transfers.

Of course if you've devolved stuff like "School districts" (eg. provision of new schools/transport etc.) to local authorities than any shortfalls should come out of central funds.

I would see local government having specific issues devolved to them.

1. Housing

2. Public transport

3. Roads except national roads.

4. Education and school provision.

5. Parks, leisure facilities, and libraries/culture.

6. Ambulance and Fire/Rescue services.

Funding would be provided by local property taxes (both private and commercial) and a percentage of income tax and corporation tax.

Infrastructure funding might be a problem, but local councils should make a choice of project A or project B for the given funding. For Example - Spending €1.2 billion between projects to build a motorway from Gort to Tuam and the Outer bypass for Galway (but no MN or DU for Dublin). The Western Region should decide M17 or M18 or GOB - not get all three. The M20 should be in the mix as well and not excluded - it would cost less than the GOB.

Central Government wants to retain all decisions to prime its own parish pumps.